Discovery 1x10 – "Despite Yourself" [ SPOILERS ]

fxotoole · 10-01-2018 7:43am

bluewolf wrote: »

I did wonder why they didn't get someone else to do the spores. I know your man is the only one who was crazy enough to get an implant but he can't be the onnnnly crazy one

Wasn’t it established that you needed someone with a specific genetic sequence or some such technobabble?

I.e. only one in a million people are compatible with the spore drive?

CramCycle · 10-01-2018 9:31am

fxotoole wrote: »

Wasn’t it established that you needed someone with a specific genetic sequence or some such technobabble?

I.e. only one in a million people are compatible with the spore drive?

Here is me makes ng **** up again, did they have to manipulate his genetics/integrate some of the tardigrade DNA. Which is eugenics and outlawed.

1hnr79jr65 · 10-01-2018 9:39am

CramCycle wrote: »

Yes

I think in a few episodes the captain called for it to disguise what was going on, on the bridge. But I could be imagining that.

My memory is getting shoddy.

Can't remember the exact episode name, but it is in DS9 where Kira was captured by the Obsidian Order and surgically altered to appear Cardassian to be the daughter of a high ranking member of the council Tekenny Ghemor, unsure of spelling.

They are trying to expose this guy for going against cardassia, Garak is with Odo and Defiant crew going to Cardassia to rescue Kira and Sisko gets Dax to alter their warp signature and view screen to make them appear like a freighter and an appropriate races design on the view screen.

They eventually drop this view on orders from Garak to stop a Cardassian ship from approaching and searching the ship using Obsidian Order codes Garak still had.

pixelburp · 10-01-2018 9:53am

I wonder what a person not passingly knowledgeable of Star Trek made of all that; the Mirror Universe is a bit of a Trek tradition at this stage, and while Discovery is arguably the first since the Original Series to take it vaguely seriously, it's still a concept with a lot of canon baggage & distinctly melodramatic tone. I could imagine the casual viewer being a bit lost with all the chatter about the Defiant, and found the whole Terran Empire structure a bit silly compared with the overall tone of Discovery so far.

I'm still not sure what to make of Lorca, and it's funny to read and hear all these theories about what he MUST be, as if it's not possible that he's just a regular Starfleet captain who has found his calling in wartime; he's clearly messed up, has a bunch of conflicting urges and priorities, even when trying to uphold the principles of a world he doesn't necessarily belong in. He's a fascinating character, even if the writing is a bit uneven at times. This episode was the first to actually make me warm to the guy, that even though has made some very questionable decisions, you could see the disgust and sadness when relating the backstory of the Mirror Universe. He's a monster, but he's the Federation's monster & knows what he's fighting for. No, he's no Picard, but he's no less fascinating and arguably is the most complex, mult-faceted Trek captain there has been.

To have a twist where he's something other than what's right there in front of us would be as cheap as hell & undermine everything we've learned so far.

TheIrishGrover · 10-01-2018 10:04am

AMKC wrote: »

I also seen the Doctor getting killed. It was so obvious nothing surprising about it.....

Well, it was obvious just before it happened. As he started to rage but what I mean was that, apart from that immediate build up I didn't see it coming. Another show would have laid it on heavier "Two days from retirement" kind of stuff

sure,he kissed his husband but that was about it.

seamus · 10-01-2018 10:20am

CramCycle wrote: »

Here is me makes ng **** up again, did they have to manipulate his genetics/integrate some of the tardigrade DNA. Which is eugenics and outlawed.

He did it to himself. So it may just be that without the Tardigrade on board they can't synthesise a new batch of gene-magic to inject into someone else.

Let's also not forget that Lorca brought them there, so he's not that pushed on looking for a quick fix.

The implication from Stamets is that he can see across space and time completely, and his prescient rambling of "Stay out of the palace" says to me that there's going to be a showdown with the Emperor; it's not just going to be a matter of getting the data on the Defiant and going home.

My suspicion is also that the emperor will be someone we already know. The fight with Connor foreshadows a hard choice that Burnham is going to have to make - having to kill someone she already mourns.
So it might be Philippa Georgiou and they establish in canon that she is a descendant of Hoshi Sato.

But I think that would actually come across a bit "generic asian person". Hoshi is clearly of Japanese descent (though played by a Korean actress!), and Georgiou clearly of Chinese descent.

Maybe the emperor will be Lorca, and the whole "Burnham and Lorca have disappeared" thing is a cover they used to conspire against the emperor.

Evade · 10-01-2018 11:38am

fxotoole wrote: »

I didn’t catch who the helm operator was and why they’d be in two places at once? Who are we talking about?

The helm operator on the Discovery with the red hair and the implant on the side of her head. Her mirror counterpart was in command on the Shenzhou when Burnham got to the bridge so she's presumably a bridge officer*. If the holocommunicator showed the whole bridge they'd see each other which might need some explaining.

*or chief engineer but the don't seem to follow that TOSism in STD.

Bacchus · 10-01-2018 12:14pm

Just a quick post on this. I loved that episode and it really felt like Discovery was in it's groove. The death of the doctor was a shock to me, I don't believe anyone that says it was obviously coming. Even right up to the moment, I was probably just expecting to be knocked out not straight up neck snapped. The Voc/Tyler thing really adds an extra danger element to the Mirror universe stuff. It's great to see the threats feeling so layered. I enjoyed "Captain Tilly".

That final shot of the Captain in the torture chamber was pretty horrifying too.

Goodshape · 10-01-2018 12:21pm

Evade wrote: »

If the holocommunicator showed the whole bridge they'd see each other which might need some explaining.

It wouldn't make sense for one side of the holo-coms to see the entire bridge. Where would they be projecting that to? Is the one person on the other side standing in a holodeck or something?

Tilly saw the captain she was speaking to, and the captain saw Tilly.

CramCycle · 10-01-2018 12:30pm

seamus wrote: »

He did it to himself. So it may just be that without the Tardigrade on board they can't synthesise a new batch of gene-magic to inject into someone else.

I imagine that its not a case that they can't do it but that morally and ethically, they can't force anyone and I imagine F all people would do it to themselves considering the state Stammets is in. His husband pointed out repeatedly how much he changed over the last while. Was this the jumps or the genetic manipulation etc.

This said, like most sci fi, as soon as it is necessary, they will find a way around the issue to solve a plot point or move the story along.

Evade · 10-01-2018 12:30pm

Goodshape wrote: »

It wouldn't make sense for one side of the holo-coms to see the entire bridge. Where would they be projecting that to? Is the one person on the other side standing in a holodeck or something?

Tilly saw the captain she was speaking to, and the captain saw Tilly.

I know but just to play devil's advocate they could scale it down. If they'd have kept classic viewscreens this whole mirror universe thing would be more interesting.

ezra_ · 10-01-2018 12:58pm

Evade wrote: »

I know but just to play devil's advocate they could scale it down. If they'd have kept classic viewscreens this whole mirror universe thing would be more interesting.

But often with the viewscreens you only saw a close in of the person speaking, and not always the entire bridge, so the point still stands...

AtomicHorror · 10-01-2018 1:44pm

seamus wrote: »

My suspicion is also that the emperor will be someone we already know. The fight with Connor foreshadows a hard choice that Burnham is going to have to make - having to kill someone she already mourns.
So it might be Philippa Georgiou and they establish in canon that she is a descendant of Hoshi Sato.

But I think that would actually come across a bit "generic asian person". Hoshi is clearly of Japanese descent (though played by a Korean actress!), and Georgiou clearly of Chinese descent.

Yeah it's decidedly iffy and if the writers go that path I'd be rather disappointed in them. No issue with Georgiou being Emperor if she merely murdered her way there- it would explain the extreme reaction to the death of Mirror Burnham.

Evade · 10-01-2018 1:54pm

Is there any real evidence Captain Georgiou is supposed to be of Chinese heritage? Her accent is Malaysian but in a world where a very English accent belongs to a Frenchman anything goes.

AtomicHorror · 10-01-2018 2:00pm

Evade wrote: »

Is there any real evidence Captain Georgiou is supposed to be of Chinese heritage? Her accent is Malaysian but in a world where a very English accent belongs to a Frenchman anything goes.

No, her nationality is never mentioned. Her family name is Greek, so might be some heritage there, but for all we know she's not even from Earth.

Evade · 10-01-2018 2:05pm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

No, her nationality is never mentioned. Her family name is Greek, so might be some heritage there, but for all we know she's not even from Earth.

According to MA it was mentioned in the fourth episode she was born on Earth.

seamus · 10-01-2018 2:11pm

I was taking the "Chinese heritage" bit primarily from her look to be fair. The character has a heavy Malaysian accent, which places her origin in Malaysia at the very least.

I think it would be a bit of an insult for a character who is canonically Japanese ("Hoshi Sato" is basically like having an Irish character called "Murphy O'Reilly") to have a child who is visibly and audibly *not* of Japanese origin, even if canonically her origins are not stated.

Evade · 10-01-2018 2:26pm

seamus wrote: »

I was taking the "Chinese heritage" bit primarily from her look to be fair. The character has a heavy Malaysian accent, which places her origin in Malaysia at the very least.

I think it would be a bit of an insult for a character who is canonically Japanese ("Hoshi Sato" is basically like having an Irish character called "Murphy O'Reilly") to have a child who is visibly and audibly *not* of Japanese origin, even if canonically her origins are not stated.

Child might be a stretch, Hoshi is 73 years older than Georgiou.

Optimus Prime · 10-01-2018 2:54pm

Im hoping Hoshi turns up as the emperor! Might be a stretch but i think it would be a cool tie in.

pixelburp · 10-01-2018 3:05pm

I suppose the immediate question is: do we know if Michelle Yeoh was originally signed on for a certain number of episodes beyond the piot? A cameo as Empress of the Terran Empire would certainly dovetail into Burnham's personal arc; having had to kill a former crewmate (already dead by her actions anyway) was already quite an impact for her - having to confront your mentor, and possibly go up against her again, would only add to things.

Inviere · 10-01-2018 5:38pm

Evade wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is here.

My point is, there's precedent for Klingons going undetected whilst disguised as Humans.

McCoy did one tricorder scan of Darvin which revealed he was a Klingon. Here multiple scans have been done of Tyler and it didn't come up.

Darvin was presumably only physically altered, on a surface level. Here, Voq seems to have had extensive work done, leaving large amounts of scarring on his internal organs. In essence, it sounds like he's had multiple organs removed/changed, bones cut & resized, and has had the memories of the REAL Tyler implanted over his own. They've done a complete rework on his physical, biological make-up. So while yes, you would think a simple scan would show him as a Klingon, I feel the point they've emphasized is they've done a LOT fo work to him, to ultimately successfully disguise him.

If he was a cardassian agent it would be believable but after that hamfisted klingon surgery not so much.

Speaking of, nobody on Voyager seemed to notice Seska was a Cardassian. You'd think transporting someone would give the gig up immediately, but nope.

On topic though, it'll be interesting to find out what happened to the Defiant. She'd be ~100 years old by now!

flazio · 10-01-2018 5:43pm

fxotoole wrote: »

Well Tilly didn’t see the Shenzou’s helm operator, so I’m assuming it only transmits one persons hologram.

I didn’t catch who the helm operator was and why they’d be in two places at once? Who are we talking about?

Lieutenant Keyla Detmer. A character who I think is very underwritten in the series so far. Here we have a character who served on the Shenzou with Burnham and Saru, suffered massive injuries to the head which required appearance altering surgery and yet apart from an awkward look between herself and Burnham when Michael first boarded the Discovery, nothing on how she is reacting to the lady guilty of starting the battle where she got her head scars.
Still though, looks like mirror Detmer is going to be second in command on the ISS Shenzou so maybe we're finally in for some character development.

Goodshape · 10-01-2018 6:16pm

I like that these "unimportant" characters are at least consistent. If they don't have much to do that's worth writing an episode about, then that's fine – no need to force it – but it's nice that Discovery feels like it's made up of people who have a job that they do, and not just this week's minimum-wage stand-in actor waiting to be relieved of duty by someone with a more expensive looking costume.

I do (as always) look forward to a 'Lower Decks' style episode though. Will be nice to flesh these characters out... but I don't consider it a failing that they haven't been yet. It's a plus that they're still there at all.

fxotoole · 10-01-2018 8:22pm

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Im hoping Hoshi turns up as the emperor! Might be a stretch but i think it would be a cool tie in.

Sure what age would her character be at this stage? I know in Star Trek, characters like McCoy can live to 140+ but still...

Evade · 10-01-2018 8:26pm

Inviere wrote: »

My point is, there's precedent for Klingons going undetected whilst disguised as Humans.

Yeah a civilian middle manager who could easily dodge a Doctor not a Starfleet officer who's routinely scanned for weird stuff.

Inviere wrote: »

Speaking of, nobody on Voyager seemed to notice Seska was a Cardassian. You'd think transporting someone would give the gig up immediately, but nope.

Seska was onboard a Starfleet ship for a few weeks before the first crew physical showed she was a Cardassian and they're very good at this. They tech away Cardassian genes and replace them with the target species genes and seemingly don't need to go at the patient with manual bonesaws.

Continuity aside, I don't buy a Starfleet doctor not figuring out the klingon surgery from what is shown in the flashbacks.

pixelburp · 10-01-2018 10:51pm

The show did establish that the Klingons hadn't been seen in a 100 years before the Binary Stars incident, they're not exactly a well understood race at this point, that allows a little leeway for one.

Besides, lieutenant Tyler exists, so after discounting mental conditioning (the aptly titled Manchurian Test), there'd be no precedent or presumption that such an extreme bodily alteration might have taken place. And it was extreme by its description, I doubt any computer could have accounted for that kind of thing.

Plus, must we still quote TOS as some bible of truth; it's the most porous of all continuities so why use it as a base?

Evade · 10-01-2018 10:57pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Plus, must we still quote TOS as some bible of truth; it's the most porous of all continuities so why use it as a base?

Probably directed at me and I don't. I take TOS in the broadest strokes possible but the later released series more concretely because they're more internally consistent with each other.

FutureGuy · 11-01-2018 11:59am

Having watched all Mirror-related episodes with the wife over the last few evenings, Discovery's attempt is right up there. Mirror Mirror was lots of fun, and I think Despite Yourself is the best attempt to capture the fun of that episode. They are such scumbags

Interesting to see Capt. Foley on TrekYards saying it's right up there with the best Trek episodes, period.

CramCycle · 11-01-2018 12:46pm

I rewatched the Enterprise one. Good for two reasons, firstly, it wasn't a crossover episode, it was just an episode set in that universe, which was a good idea. The second, is that I thought Archer was worse than usual but then when you see in the second episode (which got slated compared to the first, although I thought it was just as good) that he is clearly a (fully functioning) paranoid schizophrenic, it makes more sense.

helimachoptor · 12-01-2018 8:50am

I'm still a little confused with the Tyler thing. Did they cut him open and put voq inside ?

Discovery 1x10 – "Despite Yourself" [** SPOILERS **]

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Discovery 1x10 – "Despite Yourself" [ SPOILERS ]