Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

end of the road

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Even if we did, the security and civil issues would be immense because the Unionists are unlikely to just shrug and say "oh well, never mind!" now are they? Do we really want a return to troops on the street (even if they are wearing Irish Army uniforms this time)

again this is scaremongering. the unionists would not be able to put up any kind of campaign now. they have no support either from their community or the british army/government. they most they would be able to do is a bit of rioting and the riot squad will sort them out in no time.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

it makes the armchair Republicans (spouting lines and bile they know only from news archives and stories they were told by their older relatives) feel better I suppose

i think you will find it's not just the 1 or 2 arm chair republicans who want to see a UI, but real republicans who actually do know what we are talking about, based on the actual realities and evidence.

_Kaiser_

end of the road wrote: »

again this is scaremongering. the unionists would not be able to put up any kind of campaign now. they have no support either from their community or the british army/government. they most they would be able to do is a bit of rioting and the riot squad will sort them out in no time.



i think you will find it's not just the 1 or 2 arm chair republicans who want to see a UI, but real republicans who actually do know what we are talking about, based on the actual realities and evidence.

This entire post is nationalist romanticism. The actual realities and evidence you mention are overwhelmingly unfavorable to this idea.

But go on then.. how exactly do you suggest that the Republic pays for this idea (or are you assuming that the UK and/or EU will cough up?). Also, if you think any resistance would be limited to "a bit of rioting" I'd suggest you go back and look at the history (of both sides, and similar situations elsewhere).

Besides, where's your evidence that (outside of online polls or generic questions around the idea along the lines of "sure, it'd be nice yea") the majority of people would SUPPORT such an idea?

FrancieBrady

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This entire post is nationalist romanticism. The actual realities and evidence you mention are overwhelmingly unfavorable to this idea.

But go on then.. how exactly do you suggest that the Republic pays for this idea (or are you assuming that the UK and/or EU will cough up?). Also, if you think any resistance would be limited to "a bit of rioting" I'd suggest you go back and look at the history (of both sides, and similar situations elsewhere).

Besides, where's your evidence that (outside of online polls or generic questions around the idea along the lines of "sure, it'd be nice yea") the majority of people would SUPPORT such an idea?

Yes the 'evidence' you have presented that the majority would not 'support' it is very overwhelming in a 'few of the lads down the pub said' kinda way. :rolleyes:

_Kaiser_

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes the 'evidence' you have presented that the majority would not 'support' it is very overwhelming in a 'few of the lads down the pub said' kinda way. :rolleyes:

As I said, I'm sure most would support it if asked as a theoretical question. But if it actually came about, I think you'd find that support evaporate rapidly in the face of a(nother) massive economic burden on people, and the unfortunately inevitable security issues.

Just like most things in this country, it's all good until people are asked to pay for it and/or adjust their expectations.. but let's leave that aside fr a moment - I don't think most people actually living in the North would want a return to the violence of the past, and I really can't see them being happy with the likes of the HSE, can you?

FrancieBrady

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

As I said, I'm sure most would support it if asked as a theoretical question. But if it actually came about, I think you'd find that support evaporate rapidly in the face of a(nother) massive economic burden on people, and the unfortunately inevitable security issues.

Just like most things in this country, it's all good until people are asked to pay for it and/or adjust their expectations.. but let's leave that aside fr a moment - I don't think most people actually living in the North would want a return to the violence of the past, and I really can't see them being happy with the likes of the HSE, can you?

Yes, the evidence you present is overwhelming, we'll all go away now and think of another question.

end of the road

eventually it's going to get to the stage where what the majority want or don't want won't matter. reunification will happen and it will be forced. britain wants out of NI and they will reduce spending on it accordingly and both it and the EU will force both north and south together via trade embargo's and sanctions if needs be. so people would be stupid not to vote for reunification as what britain and the EU will do if reunification doesn't happen would damage the country more then reunification ever could. reunification is going to happen, it would be better if it is voted for then forced.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

again this is scaremongering. the unionists would not be able to put up any kind of campaign now. they have no support either from their community or the british army/government. they most they would be able to do is a bit of rioting and the riot squad will sort them out in no time.

The British probably thought the same of the IRA when the Treaty was passed and assumed that the 'movement' in the North would disappear without support. I've seen nothing to suggest that Unionists are less ideologically driven than Republicans.

And these groups already have existing forms of support established, and likely have their own caches of weaponry, along with the support they might receive from the British Army when/if they were leaving.

i think you will find it's not just the 1 or 2 arm chair republicans who want to see a UI, but real republicans who actually do know what we are talking about, based on the actual realities and evidence.

I'm still waiting to see this research and analysis that would prove a UI feasible... (without destroying the Republics economy) You have already stated that any objection is based on lies. So it should be easy for you to produce heaps of supporting evidence based on modern circumstances...

So. lets see these actual realities and evidence...

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

The British probably thought the same of the IRA when the Treaty was passed and assumed that the 'movement' in the North would disappear without support. I've seen nothing to suggest that Unionists are less ideologically driven than Republicans.

the ira had world wide support along with support for many other sources which are no longer in a position to provide any support.

Deleted User wrote: »

And these groups already have existing forms of support established, and likely have their own caches of weaponry, along with the support they might receive from the British Army when/if they were leaving.

that would be very hard as all weapons within the british army i believe are recorded and checked so if any are missing there will be hell to pay. the british soldiers leaving NI giving support in the form of arms would be very very hard to cary out. both the ira and loyalist destruction of weaponry was over-saw when it was caried out. so a campaign by the loyalists would be very small and would easily be shut down.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

the ira had world wide support along with support for many other sources which are no longer in a position to provide any support.

Worldwide support in the 1920s/1930s? DeValera went 'hat in hand' for help for the War of Independence and received sweet feck all. At the time of the partition, the IRA had very little worldwide support available to them. Most of that came later.

that would be very hard as all weapons within the british army i believe are recorded and checked so if any are missing there will be hell to pay. the british soldiers leaving NI giving support in the form of arms would be very very hard to cary out. both the ira and loyalist destruction of weaponry was over-saw when it was caried out. so a campaign by the loyalists would be very small and would easily be shut down.

The British government could easily leave "out-dated" weaponry behind "off the books". Without trying hard, I can think of a dozen scams relating to the maintenance of weaponry which would allow plenty to be lost/stolen/etc over the months prior to leaving. It's not as if the British government hasn't supplied paramilitary groups before...

And even without such support, Modern terrorism doesn't require the use of such weaponry. Explosives and DIY weapons can be made with the expertise, and there are former-soldiers/paramilitary groups in the north with the knowledge to do it.

I notice you have once again moved on without proving the feasibility of a UI. Where is all this evidence that you claim exists?

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Worldwide support in the 1920s/1930s? DeValera went 'hat in hand' for help for the War of Independence and received sweet feck all.

Eh?
Have you a link to back that up?

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Eh?
Have you a link to back that up?

What did DeV receive from his trip to America during the War of Independence?

Do I really need to find a link for that? Seriously?

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

What did DeV receive from his trip to America during the War of Independence?

Do I really need to find a link for that? Seriously?

Did he not return with over half a million dollars?

Duckworth_Luas

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did he not return with over half a million dollars?

I remember reading the book DevValera in America. I was surprised by how much of a cause celebre Irish Independence was in the USA at the time. Not just among Irish immigrants and Irish Americans, but among the general population. He was filling major league baseball stadiums for speeches.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

Worldwide support in the 1920s/1930s?

no, world wide support during the troubles from 1969 to 1998. the 1920s really aren't relevant to this discussion.

Deleted User wrote: »

The British government could easily leave "out-dated" weaponry behind "off the books". Without trying hard, I can think of a dozen scams relating to the maintenance of weaponry which would allow plenty to be lost/stolen/etc over the months prior to leaving. It's not as if the British government hasn't supplied paramilitary groups before...

the british could do this, yes.
they will do this, no
britain wants out of northern ireland, they will not give support to the loyalists this time.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did he not return with over half a million dollars?

Good point. I stand corrected. Thanks.

P_1

end of the road wrote: »

eventually it's going to get to the stage where what the majority want or don't want won't matter. reunification will happen and it will be forced. britain wants out of NI and they will reduce spending on it accordingly and both it and the EU will force both north and south together via trade embargo's and sanctions if needs be. so people would be stupid not to vote for reunification as what britain and the EU will do if reunification doesn't happen would damage the country more then reunification ever could. reunification is going to happen, it would be better if it is voted for then forced.

On the subject of scaremongering...

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

.... really aren't relevant to this discussion..

Nor is your evidence. I'm done with you.

joe40

A united ireland will ultimately depend on economics. I don't think that a majority of northern nationalists would opt for a united ireland if there was an economic price to pay. The population in the north are used to NHS, paying nothing for schoolbooks etc. When push comes to shove the I don't think "patriotism" would swing it. Much like the case with the scottish referendum.

bodice ripper

end of the road wrote: »

eventually it's going to get to the stage where what the majority want or don't want won't matter. reunification will happen and it will be forced. britain wants out of NI and they will reduce spending on it accordingly and both it and the EU will force both north and south together via trade embargo's and sanctions if needs be. so people would be stupid not to vote for reunification as what britain and the EU will do if reunification doesn't happen would damage the country more then reunification ever could. reunification is going to happen, it would be better if it is voted for then forced.

This is hysterical. In both senses of the word.

SeanSouth

United Ireland will never happen as a stand alone event. I don't want it and nobody that I know, wants it. The unionists don't want it and dare i say that most of the catholic community in NI doesn't want it. SinnFein and the British government want it !!

The only sensible progression would be to unite the entire island of Ireland with the entire island of Britain. We need the Britts to sort out the political messes in this country. How long more can our gombeen politicians be entrusted with the failed health service, the failed police force, the homeless crises, the infrastructure crisis etc etc etc.

joe40

[

The only sensible progression would be to unite the entire island of Ireland with the entire island of Britain. We need the Britts to sort out the political messes in this country. How long more can our gombeen politicians be entrusted with the failed health service, the failed police force, the homeless crises, the infrastructure crisis etc etc etc.[/quote]

You're on your own with that opinion. We have our problems but britain is far from perfect. I would take this country with its failings any day

end of the road

SeanSouth wrote: »

United Ireland will never happen as a stand alone event. I don't want it and nobody that I know, wants it. The unionists don't want it and dare i say that most of the catholic community in NI doesn't want it. SinnFein and the British government want it !!

The only sensible progression would be to unite the entire island of Ireland with the entire island of Britain. We need the Britts to sort out the political messes in this country. How long more can our gombeen politicians be entrusted with the failed health service, the failed police force, the homeless crises, the infrastructure crisis etc etc etc.

no, no we really don't need the brits to sort out the political problems in this country, given that the brits political establishment are a a billion times more of a ****show then ours ever could be. ireland will not be reuniting with britain, as i said there are plenty of us who will insure it won't happen. ireland as part of britain would take us back to the 1950s.

maryishere

joe40 wrote: »

I would take this country with its failings any day

I would also take this country, but I would take it further and quicker if it had the NHS, cheaper vehicle prices / less vrt and vat tax, had not gombeen politicians who only worried about feathering their own nests etc.

maryishere

It (a United Ireland) is not going to happen, at least not in our lifetime, we can all agree on that.

Thank God the UK govt is still involved in N.I., we should be begging them to stay.

All My Stars Aligned

end of the road wrote: »

eventually it's going to get to the stage where what the majority want or don't want won't matter. reunification will happen and it will be forced. britain wants out of NI and they will reduce spending on it accordingly and both it and the EU will force both north and south together via trade embargo's and sanctions if needs be. so people would be stupid not to vote for reunification as what britain and the EU will do if reunification doesn't happen would damage the country more then reunification ever could. reunification is going to happen, it would be better if it is voted for then forced.

WTF????

Your posts here are absolutely idiotic. On a scale of 1 - 10 the above is ****ing off the charts. When asked to provide some evidence as to how the ROI would financially support NI you can't. Why? Because the ROI cannot financially support itself in any sort of sustainable way. As other posters have said, our entire economy revolves around property and tax breaks to foreign multinationals. The EU would in no way want or allow one of its member states taking on a financial sinkhole like NI.

Pease do us all a favour and crawl back under your Bobby Sands duvet cover.

FrancieBrady

SeanSouth wrote: »

United Ireland will never happen as a stand alone event..

Events, dear boy, events.
In a very short series of events we now have a FG Taoiseach making noises about a UI and senior members of his cabinet.
If I or anyone else predicted that even a year ago, we would have been laughed off Boards.

Just shows anyone who cares to look at reality, that the failed statelet is in a very vulnerable and perilous position.

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Events, dear boy, events.
In a very short series of events we now have a FG Taoiseach making noises about a UI and senior members of his cabinet.
If I or anyone else predicted that even a year ago, we would have been laughed off Boards.

Just shows anyone who cares to look at reality, that the failed statelet is in a very vulnerable and perilous position.

and taking on a completely failed state would really help make that ok? what a stupid argument.

SeanSouth

Well if the leader of FG said it, it must be true :rolleyes:

maryishere

lol. Which is failed statelet is in a very vulnerable and perilous position?

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and taking on a completely failed state would really help make that ok? what a stupid argument.

Well Leo doesn't seem to have a problem with it and doesn't think it will lose him any votes. That tell you anything?
When a FG Taoiseach is talking positively about it, something is afoot, be assured of that