Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

Augme

swiwi_ wrote: »

I’d be interested to see how firing someone based on a private WhatsApp message stands up in a court of law...maybe even the European court.

Could get nasty if we have 3 players taking the rugby union to the courts.

They'd really be setting their careers in Ireland on fire if they took the IRFU to court. I doubt it's worth it.

bilston

Buer wrote: »

If they terminate a contract on the basis of messages, they've to act on Gilroy too.

If they terminate a contract on the basis of what they consider distasteful behaviour with a woman involving multiple people present, they could open a whole other can of worms in relation to previously well publicised incidents involving others.

If I was Jackson, one of the first things I'd be asking would be where was the investigations a few years back when another incident took place with two Irish stars and multiple people in the room which led to some distasteful WhatsApp messages being sent out and well publicised.

Funny I was going to quote your post from above quoting Brendan Fanning and mention that incident.

bilston

Augme wrote: »

swiwi_ wrote: »

I’d be interested to see how firing someone based on a private WhatsApp message stands up in a court of law...maybe even the European court.

Could get nasty if we have 3 players taking the rugby union to the courts.

They'd really be setting their careers in Ireland on fire if they took the IRFU to court. I doubt it's worth it.

Their careers in Ireland would be over anyway.

bilston

stl.ire wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

I can't see how they will stay. In fact I'd say it's practically a given, I don't agree with it myself but it is probably better for all concerned to part ways.

Gilroy is an interesting one though. If you sack Jackson and Olding over the WhatsApp messages then you have to sack Gilroy. But then it may not come to sackings.

Maybe not sackings but “mutual” contract terminations for Jackson and Olding and a nice apology from Gilroy are most likely imo.

Bringing Gilroy into it might be an attempt to persuade Jackson and Olding to accept a mutual release. Something along the lines of if you don't accept this you will both sacked but so will your mate.

Augme

bilston wrote: »

Their careers in Ireland would be over anyway.

Not really. They are both very young. I honestly think if they leave for abroad now and came back in 2-3 years time there would not be such a big issue about it.

mfceiling

Augme wrote: »

Not really. They are both very young. I honestly think if they leave for abroad now and came back in 2-3 years time there would not be such a big issue about it.

There most certainly would. I'd imagine with the level of public scrutiny over this case and the fact that the government in the Republic are talking of reforming the way sex education is taught in school, the lads are gone forever.

jacothelad

Podge_irl wrote: »

They can of course take action regardless of court verdicts - but they can only do so within the confines of employment law. They are not dictators.

Will you tell them or shall I.

jacothelad

P_1 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/jelliott_11/status/981228513326923777

Honestly if something said in a private conversation could invoke somebody's career going down the pan it is a scary, scary development.

Yes. It's not like he and a team mate had sex with a girl and then put the film up for the world to see.

prawnsambo

jacothelad wrote: »

Will you tell them or shall I.

Well if they're not, they should be.

foxyladyxx

Augme wrote: »

Not really. They are both very young. I honestly think if they leave for abroad now and came back in 2-3 years time there would not be such a big issue about it.

That is the best outcome . .I do hope that can happen.

The Anne O'Connell article is weird.

"If a private conversation hadn't come to public attention, it would have remained private" followed by the legal requirements for a safe (from challenge) disciplinary process that anyone in HR is eminently aware of.

The waffling around constitutional rights to employment and natural justice are just that, waffle.

Gross misconduct is a catch-all term for behaviour outside work that can reflect poorly on your employer or on your role as an employee. It has been used in countless cases across Ireland, the UK, USA and the rest of Europe to dismiss staff for private behaviour in a private capacity.

MJohnston

bilston wrote: »

I don't really know what to say MJohnston. I realise you are really upset (not sure that's the right word) about this, and I understand it, but these are guys in their early 20s. You surely can't be that shocked by these WhatsApp messages???

Am I shocked? No. Absolutely not. I am however extremely disappointed, and I think it's about time we men stopped pretending that that kind of language is acceptable for teenagers, nevermind people in their twenties. Gilroy was probably around 25 when he sent them, there's no excusing it at all. I'm not particularly upset really, certainly in the spectrum of upset I'd imagine there are a lot more people who could much more accurately be described as upset, but I do think if people like us, on this message board, are willing to write language like that off using whatever excuse, I'd be pretty upset about a lack of social progress.

Important to note that I'm talking about this in compete separation from the idea of punishing that behaviour. That's a different discussion. I'm just a bit amazed at how many posters here are willing to excuse some really abhorrent language. I think we can do better.

swiwi_

MJohnston wrote: »

Am I shocked? No. Absolutely not. I am however extremely disappointed, and I think it's about time we men stopped pretending that that kind of language is acceptable for teenagers, nevermind people in their twenties. Gilroy was probably around 25 when he sent them, there's no excusing it at all. I'm not particularly upset really, certainly in the spectrum of upset I'd imagine there are a lot more people who could much more accurately be described as upset, but I do think if people like us, on this message board, are willing to write language like that off using whatever excuse, I'd be pretty upset about a lack of social progress.

Important to note that I'm talking about this in compete separation from the idea of punishing that behaviour. That's a different discussion. I'm just a bit amazed at how many posters here are willing to excuse some really abhorrent language. I think we can do better.

The language is not great...but a sackable offence...?

Amirani

Dubinusa wrote: »

I'm sure there's a lot of players chomping at the bit just dying to play rugby for Ulster and the IRFU. Ulster should just recruit from Eton or some other upper crust gentlemen school of that's the case.

I'd imagine Eton sorts would be just as bad or worse. Think David Cameron's activity with pig etc.

jacothelad

Augme wrote: »

They'd really be setting their careers in Ireland on fire if they took the IRFU to court. I doubt it's worth it.

I think that ship has sailed already, however I doubt if other potential employers will care so long as they sign for them. I also suspect that even if the IRFU were so cack handed as to sack them in an illegal manner that they would get any redress from courts in the Republic if they were naive enough to think so.

MJohnston wrote: »

set, but I do think if people like us, on this message board, are willing to write language like that off using whatever excuse, I'd be pretty upset about a lack of social progress.

Important to note that I'm talking about this in compete separation from the idea of punishing that behaviour. That's a different discussion. I'm just a bit amazed at how many posters here are willing to excuse some really abhorrent language. I think we can do better.

I haven't seen many people making excuses for the crass and repulsive language. However the amount of faux outrage, the vilification, the lynch mob mentality is just as bad or worse. What those fools did was intended for only them and their eyes. What these other vile vigilantes do is appalling. Mob rule. We've seen it before in Ireland.

MJohnston

swiwi_ wrote: »

The language is not great...but a sackable offence...?

Again, this is the problem - some people are so desperate to retain players for whatever reason that they're tripping over themselves to find excuses for the language.

I'll repeat - I'm not calling for anyone to be fired for those messages, I'm purely talking about the necessity to ditch the mindset that excuses that kind of language.

foxyladyxx

The big loser here is Irish rugby..

jacothelad

Amirani wrote: »

I'd imagine Eton sorts would be just as bad or worse. Think David Cameron's activity with pig etc.

What a man does with his pork sword in private is his own business.:D:D

razorblunt

This is getting into dangerous ground now for Ulster and the IRFU. Olding and Jackson didn’t really say anything THAT bad in the messages so if they think Gilroy did they can’t really sack the two lads.

jacothelad

swiwi_ wrote: »

The language is not great...but a sackable offence...?

Yes. Jackson's contribution was 'There was a lot of spit.' Now even within the context of these events....sacking????????

AdamD

MJohnston wrote: »

Again, this is the problem - some people are so desperate to retain players for whatever reason that they're tripping over themselves to find excuses for the language.

I'll repeat - I'm not calling for anyone to be fired for those messages, I'm purely talking about the necessity to ditch the mindset that excuses that kind of language.

People are tripping over themselves trying to be offended. Gilroy wrote one thing in a whatsapp conversation. He wasn't aware of what had happened. If we're now taking whatsapp group messages into the public domain for scrutiny I think we'd all be a bit screwed

razorblunt

foxyladyxx wrote: »

The big loser here is Irish rugby..

It isn’t really, it’s Ulster rugby.

MJohnston

jacothelad wrote: »

I think that ship has sailed already, however I doubt if other potential employers will care so long as they sign for them. I also suspect that even if the IRFU were so cack handed as to sack them in an illegal manner that they would get any redress from courts in the Republic if they were naive enough to think so.



I haven't seen many people making excuses for the crass and repulsive language. However the amount of faux outrage, the vilification, the lynch mob mentality is just as bad or worse. What those fools did was intended for only them and their eyes. What these other vile vigilantes do is appalling. Mob rule. We've seen it before in Ireland.

Jaco, sincerely, you're talking out your arse here. The only people with faux outrage and vilification on this board have been those siding with the players. Show me where the mob rule is among the posters here? Imo you're one of the biggest offenders in terms of villifying others to excuse the behaviours of these players, and to what end? What good does it do to say on here that others calling women or girls sluts is excusable simply because you're annoyed by some people on Twitter?

jacothelad

MJohnston wrote: »

Jaco, sincerely, you're talking out your arse here. The only people with faux outrage and vilification on this board have been those siding with the players. Show me where the mob rule is among the posters here? Imo you're one of the biggest offenders in terms of villifying others to excuse the behaviours of these players, and to what end? What good does it do to say on here that others calling women or girls sluts is excusable simply because you're annoyed by some people on Twitter?

I'm not talking about what people on here think, I'm talking about the mob mentality outside here. The only verbal flatulence is yours. Trial by screeching harridans and uninformed fools is a dangerous route to support.

irishbucsfan

razorblunt wrote: »

This is getting into dangerous ground now for Ulster and the IRFU. Olding and Jackson didn’t really say anything THAT bad in the messages so if they think Gilroy did they can’t really sack the two lads.

If the only thing they are reviewing is the messages, yes. If they're reviewing their conduct before/after the incident then no.

The messages are bad enough, what was in the deleted messages? What if someone has a copy? What if there's other material? What I mean to say is, we have absolutely no idea what they have or what they'll uncover.

Gilroy though I would say is unlikely to be in huge trouble. Sure what he said was dickish but he wasn't aware of what the other lads were aware of at the time they were doing their bragging. The other lads are far more deserving of the massive damage they've done to themselves.

Brewster

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If the only thing they are reviewing is the messages, yes. If they're reviewing their conduct before/after the incident then no.

The messages are bad enough, what was in the deleted messages? What if someone has a copy? What if there's other material? What I mean to say is, we have absolutely no idea what they have or what they'll uncover.

Gilroy though I would say is unlikely to be in huge trouble. Sure what he said was dickish but he wasn't aware of what the other lads were aware of at the time they were doing their bragging. The other lads are far more deserving of the massive damage they've done to themselves.

It’s a fair point. Let me take it further, were Jackson and Olding aware of the FULL picture when doing their ‘bragging’ by WhatsApp? I am not sure they were Bucs, was this not brought to their attention by Harrison? Let’s remember the amount of alcohol that had been consumed...

sydthebeat

Let's not even entertain the possibility of Gilroy getting sacked for what he said in a WhatsApp message group which he understood to be completely private.
When he gets his hand slapped for "insert generic don't be a dick" statement from Ulster rugby, we don't want any one going into hysterics crying out that they went easy on him.

His reputation and ego will pay the price for his insulting and immature language.

irishbucsfan

Brewster wrote: »

It’s a fair point. Let me take it further, were Jackson and Olding aware of the FULL picture when doing their ‘bragging’ by WhatsApp? I am not sure they were Bucs, was this not brought to their attention by Harrison? Let’s remember the amount of alcohol that had been consumed...

I'd find it almost impossible to believe, personally, that they were not aware of it.

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

razorblunt wrote: »

This is getting into dangerous ground now for Ulster and the IRFU. Olding and Jackson didn’t really say anything THAT bad in the messages so if they think Gilroy did they can’t really sack the two lads.

If the only thing they are reviewing is the messages, yes. If they're reviewing their conduct before/after the incident then no.

The messages are bad enough, what was in the deleted messages? What if someone has a copy? What if there's other material? What I mean to say is, we have absolutely no idea what they have or what they'll uncover.

Gilroy though I would say is unlikely to be in huge trouble. Sure what he said was dickish but he wasn't aware of what the other lads were aware of at the time they were doing their bragging. The other lads are far more deserving of the massive damage they've done to themselves.

Were Jackson and Olding aware of anything at the time?

Edit - You've answered that.

razorblunt

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If the only thing they are reviewing is the messages, yes. If they're reviewing their conduct before/after the incident then no.

The messages are bad enough, what was in the deleted messages? What if someone has a copy? What if there's other material? What I mean to say is, we have absolutely no idea what they have or what they'll uncover.

Gilroy though I would say is unlikely to be in huge trouble. Sure what he said was dickish but he wasn't aware of what the other lads were aware of at the time they were doing their bragging. The other lads are far more deserving of the massive damage they've done to themselves.

How many deleted messages were there in the group?

I thought it was Harrison who deleted messages mostly in the chat with Mcilroy but one the morning after?