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Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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    #2072
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Those messages, plus the ones they deleted. As well as the conduct they admitted to.

    Fear of accusation as opposed to fear of guilt is a driver in poor decision making. It seems we excuse or dismiss some actions or errors under duress but not others.


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    #2073
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    RuMan wrote: »
    they are innocent of everything except having a consensual threesome and sending bragging messages.
    Only thing i'm interested in now is their performance on a rugby field.

    Unless you're making decisions at companies like Vodafone or RBS then it doesn't really matter what you or I are interested in.


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    #2074
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    errlloyd wrote: »
    I did not, the office isn't far away.

    I haven't posted much here on their future contracts. But I think the guys can make a very good living abroad - potentially much better than they would make here. Particularly now they have lost some of their image value.

    They're not Eoin O Malley or Jonny Holland. They are unfortunate that no verdict was ever likely to rule them completely "innocent", but at the same time they are fortunate that the burden of proof for a criminal trial is so high. In my heart of hearts I can't feel sorry for them, because ultimately I think they're probably lucky to be free men, and within a few years they will once again be well earning, free men, playing the sport they love.

    Without being in the room at the time nor attending the trial I've probably not much more information than you. But I would argue that the jury taking no time to discuss the charges suggests that the burden of proof probably could have been lower without impacting the verdict. That no juror dissented from the verdict nor appears to have attempted to (it's possible but unlikely) suggest a pretty strong sentiment from the jury.

    You can only take so much from the optics here but I don't think that is unfair.


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    #2075
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Unless you're making decisions at companies like Vodafone or RBS then it doesn't really matter what you or I are interested in.

    Sponsorship deals will be no problem as long as the team continues to be successful. If PJ is the in form No 10 he will be selected. If his form isnt great then they wont select him.
    If you think an Irish Rugby team wont attract sponsors you're wrong. If Vodafone dont want, there are plenty of others.


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    #2076
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    RuMan wrote: »
    Sponsorship deals will be no problem as long as the team continues to be successful. If PJ is the in form No 10 he will be selected. If his form isnt great then they wont select him.
    If you think an Irish Rugby team wont attract sponsors you're wrong. If Vodafone dont want, there are plenty of others.

    If that's true, they've nothing to fear.


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    #2077
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    RuMan wrote: »
    Sponsorship deals will be no problem as long as the team continues to be successful. If PJ is the in form No 10 he will be selected. If his form isnt great then they wont select him.
    If you think an Irish Rugby team wont attract sponsors you're wrong. If Vodafone dont want, there are plenty of others.

    This happened today, for an on-the-field incident in which basically had no consequences:

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/mar/29/magellan-terminates-sponsorship-deal-with-cricket-australia

    I don't know what might happen if Jackon plays for Ireland again but I wouldn't be so dismissive of the potential impact.


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    #2078
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RuMan wrote: »
    Sponsorship deals will be no problem as long as the team continues to be successful. If PJ is the in form No 10 he will be selected. If his form isnt great then they wont select him.
    If you think an Irish Rugby team wont attract sponsors you're wrong. If Vodafone dont want, there are plenty of others.

    Sorry man, I really disagree with you here. People are very angry about this, I think it's misdirected but ultimately if there was any chance that the IRFU would retain the players that is now gone.

    Sponsors absolutely would pull away because of this. Look at what is happening in Australian cricket right now?


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    #2079
    cantwbr1
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭cantwbr1


    RuMan wrote: »
    Sponsorship deals will be no problem as long as the team continues to be successful. If PJ is the in form No 10 he will be selected. If his form isnt great then they wont select him.
    If you think an Irish Rugby team wont attract sponsors you're wrong. If Vodafone dont want, there are plenty of others.

    The fallout (loss of a major sponsor)for Cricket Australia from the recent cheating incident would suggest different. I know that the cricketers were caught cheating but the optics from the trial are arguably worse.


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    #2080
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    They'll be sat out for the season regardless. The question is how much will people care next September


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    #2081
    Brewster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭Brewster


    cantwbr1 wrote: »
    The fallout (loss of a major sponsor)for Cricket Australia from the recent cheating incident would suggest different. I know that the cricketers were caught cheating but the optics from the trial are arguably worse.

    Well if the optics of the trial, where four men have been fully acquitted is worse that two cricketers admitting to cheating, then society really is in trouble....


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    #2082
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AdamD wrote: »
    They'll be sat out for the season regardless. The question is how much will people care next September

    #notmyouthalf
    #notmy10

    They'll care. I wasn't convinced they were done in Ireland but I absolutely am now.


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    #2083
    cantwbr1
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭cantwbr1


    Brewster wrote: »
    Well if the optics of the trial, where four men have been fully acquitted is worse that two cricketers admitting to cheating, then society really is in trouble....

    How much of a social media storm was there after the cricketers were caught.
    Optics are the only thing that sponsors care about


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    #2084
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They'll care. I wasn't convinced they were done in Ireland but I absolutely am now.

    I would tend to agree. Personally I think they should be allowed get on with their careers at Ulster (and Ireland if merited) but there has just been this outburst of absolute rage from various quarters at the verdict. I think they're, to borrow a phrase, now poisonous to have around Irish rugby.


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    #2085
    Brewster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭Brewster


    Deleted User wrote: »
    #notmyouthalf
    #notmy10

    They'll care. I wasn't convinced they were done in Ireland but I absolutely am now.

    I agree Venjur that this will be a concern to the IRFU. The reaction of the last 24 hours has shocked me. But surely the IRFU have to stand on the side of a court of law and not the court of an public opinion?


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    #2086
    Brewster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭Brewster


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    I would tend to agree. Personally I think they should be allowed get on with their careers at Ulster (and Ireland if merited) but there has just been this outburst of absolute rage from various quarters at the verdict. I think they're, to borrow a phrase, now poisonous to have around Irish rugby.

    ....then this will be the real tradegy in all this mess.


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    #2087
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Go on Twitter.

    Look at the photos of the rally in front of the GPO in Dublin today. Look at how many people turned up.

    Ask yourself if you still believe sponsors won't care.


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    #2088
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Brewster wrote: »
    But surely the IRFU have to stand on the side of a court of law and not the court of an public opinion?

    Not at all. When the IRFU say they are doing an internal investigation what they are actually doing is an internal risk assessment. The benefit to retaining the players services against the cost to the brand. As business owners (in a loose sense) that is what they are required to do.

    That quite a number of fringe political figures have hitched their wagon to the outrage and the fact that there are marches in Dublin and Cork means that any chance of that risk assessment coming back on the side of the players is gone.

    There will be a clause in their contracts about bringing the team into disrepute that will be vague but will allow the IRFU negotiators to put pressure on the players to leave their contracts early to get away from the spotlight in England or France. The severance will be managed in such a way as to look like the players decisions.


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    #2089
    The Black Stags
    Registered Users Posts: 177 ✭✭The Black Stags


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Deleted User wrote: »
    They'll care. I wasn't convinced they were done in Ireland but I absolutely am now.

    I would tend to agree. Personally I think they should be allowed get on with their careers at Ulster (and Ireland if merited) but there has just been this outburst of absolute rage from various quarters at the verdict. I think they're, to borrow a phrase, now poisonous to have around Irish rugby.
    I agree, though I take a different view of this outrage storm. These people - and I have watched these types of people for long enough - will jump up and down about anything. The correct approach in terms of long term dealing with them is to ignore them. Because they will take offense at anything in an attempt to gain power.
    Sadly we don't seem to be capable as a collective in society of it. Sponsors get afraid very quickly.
    I've also seen a huge amount of support for the boys in my circles of friends and peers and online. The outrage mob is small but very very loud.


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    #2090
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sorry man, I really disagree with you here. People are very angry about this, I think it's misdirected but ultimately if there was any chance that the IRFU would retain the players that is now gone.

    Sponsors absolutely would pull away because of this. Look at what is happening in Australian cricket right now?

    Seems to be mostly serial protesters like Ruth Coppinger though.You might get a small number of protesters but it will peter out quickly especially if the team is successful.
    I think it will be very difficult for PJ to get back to the level he was at if he does i still think he'll be selected. I think most people who were actually paying attention recognise they were clearly innocent and it will blow over in time.
    Other then the internet i suspect there will be little media coverage of protests.


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    #2091
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,786 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    MJohnston wrote: »
    or you need to go read social media again.

    That's a big part of the problem here. People will read some if the absolute nonsense posted on both sides and accept it as gospel.


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    #2092
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    I think they are done with Ireland and Ulster now. I didn't yesterday but the reaction has been very strong.

    Jackson can go off to France or England and earn a fortune, he will be an international quality out half e tering the peak years of his career without actually having to play test rugby. His first contract may not get him riches but his next one will if he is abroad and there isn't much focus on these events.

    As for the whatsapp messages I doubt very much Ulster will be sacking Jackson and Olding over them.


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    #2093
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,170 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think the details of the text messages and taking part in gangbangs are enough to see them dropped through some kind of morality clause. Sponsors won't have any interest in supporting that.

    Were Murray and Zebo dropped due to a morality clause?


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    #2094
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RuMan wrote: »
    Seems to be mostly serial protesters like Ruth Coppinger though.You might get a small number of protesters but it will peter out quickly especially if the team is successful.
    I think it will be very difficult for PJ to get back to the level he was at if he does i still think he'll be selected. I think most people who were actually paying attention recognise they were clearly innocent and it will blow over in time.
    Other then the internet i suspect there will be little media coverage of protests.

    It's currently on the front page of the journal.


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    #2095
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    The Black Stags wrote: »
    I agree, though I take a different view of this outrage storm. These people - and I have watched these types of people for long enough - will jump up and down about anything. The correct approach in terms of long term dealing with them is to ignore them. Because they will take offense at anything in an attempt to gain power.
    Sadly we don't seem to be capable as a collective in society of it. Sponsors get afraid very quickly.
    I've also seen a huge amount of support for the boys in my circles of friends and peers and online. The outrage mob is small but very very loud.

    Its the noisy minority that gets its way in most things


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    #2096
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Were Murray and Zebo dropped due to a morality clause?

    Were Murray and Zebo's texts printed in every newspaper? Were they on trial for weeks? Public perception does matter when representing your club and country whether you like it or not. The misogynistic text messages are damning enough, even if they weren't 100% serious.

    I'd be shocked if they were allowed to play. Is it right? Probably not.

    They'll make a pretty penny in France.


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    #2097
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,970 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Former Former wrote: »
    Go on Twitter.

    Look at the photos of the rally in front of the GPO in Dublin today. Look at how many people turned up.

    Ask yourself if you still believe sponsors won't care.

    A few hundred people that don't give a crap about rugby or already hate it.


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    #2098
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's currently on the front page of the journal.

    Any coverage on RTE ? Irish Times ? Independent ?

    Ruth Coppinger, Brid Smyth are there, middle Ireland wants nothing to do with serial protesters like them.


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    #2099
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,529 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    mfceiling wrote: »
    That's a big part of the problem here. People will read some if the absolute nonsense posted on both sides and accept it as gospel.

    In the context of understanding what people are angry about, which is what I was talking about there, social media is where you'll find that anger.

    Some posters here seem determined to see the IRFU's decision as entirely and solely influenced by the court verdict, when the reality is that it is much more complex than that. If people think the IRFU won't take public opinion into account, you are only fooling yourself.


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    #2100
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    A few hundred people that don't give a crap about rugby or already hate it.

    Twitter tells me there are over 80k tweets using the #ibelieveher hashtag. I'm guessing it's more than a few hundred people generating all those.


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    #2101
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Listening to radio nova earlier, they had no issue broadcasting a clip from a woman at one of the protests (Dublin accent so presumably the Dublin one) saying " the rapists were found not guilty, not innocent" . This is the type of idiot that passes for the general population.

    Going by the Facebook posts thread on ah there seems to be no repercussions for calling people rapists and whatever else on social media ( and on the radio it seems) without any proof.


This discussion has been closed.
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