Farmer brought a digger onto my land

ganmo

Another thing to consider is contacting your local district veterinary office(DVO) with the land folio number to make sure that he isn't claiming payments on that field.

beveragelady

Thanks everybody for help and input. I got onto the guards but the chap who deals with my isolated neck of the woods is on holidays for a few more days so I've put my rantin' and ravin' on hold until I get to talk to him.

Ganmo, that's very useful info. I'm not a farmer and this is exactly the sort of thing I need to be told. Will they give me any info over the phone, do you think? I have the folio number, I could just ask them if anybody is claiming payments, they wouldn't have to tell me who or how much. My prediction is that it would transpire that no payments are being claimed, because this mucksavage KNOWS it's not his field.

I know nothing whatsoever about farm payments. Are there any in particular I should namedrop? The land is in a special protection area, if that matters.

ganmo

beveragelady wrote: »

Thanks everybody for help and input. I got onto the guards but the chap who deals with my isolated neck of the woods is on holidays for a few more days so I've put my rantin' and ravin' on hold until I get to talk to him.

Ganmo, that's very useful info. I'm not a farmer and this is exactly the sort of thing I need to be told. Will they give me any info over the phone, do you think? I have the folio number, I could just ask them if anybody is claiming payments, they wouldn't have to tell me who or how much. My prediction is that it would transpire that no payments are being claimed, because this mucksavage KNOWS it's not his field.

I know nothing whatsoever about farm payments. Are there any in particular I should namedrop? The land is in a special protection area, if that matters.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/contact/bpslo-callnumbers/

they should have no issue talking to you as it your land and you don't have it rented to anyone. what will happen if he is claiming your ground is they'll send him a letter asking for proof of ownership/rent agreement.
you might be able to submit a bps application and make a few bob too but thats a whole different kettle of fish

beveragelady

ganmo wrote: »

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/contact/bpslo-callnumbers/

they should have no issue talking to you as it your land and you don't have it rented to anyone. what will happen if he is claiming your ground is they'll send him a letter asking for proof of ownership/rent agreement.
you might be able to submit a bps application and make a few bob too but thats a whole different kettle of fish

Thanks. This is very useful stuff. I'll contact the DVO tomorrow if they're open and let you know how I get on. BPS is out of the question I'm afraid, because I'm not a farmer, I've no crops, no herd number and no livestock apart from cats, dogs and bees.

beveragelady

Just got off the phone with the DVO (at least, I started with the DVO, I got transferred around a lot and I have no idea where I landed) but I'm none the wiser. They can't give me any info about payment claims on my own land. They only way they can do that is if I make a claim myself, which I can't do because I'm not a farmer. They don't want the folio number, they want the plot number, which I can only get if I'm a farmer. I said "So somebody could fraudulently be claiming payments based on land they don't own but there's no way for me to even alert you to the possibility that this is happening?" Nope. No interest.
I was advised to write in to the Basic Payments section with a map with the relevant sections coloured in and a letter saying that I'm the landowner and nobody has my permission to farm this land or to make claims for payments. No suggestion as to the sort of map or the scale. I'm going to have to include the folio numbers, OS coordinates etc, or else what use is a map of some fields? They could be anywhere in the country! I think the point is, I'm welcome to write the letter but it'll be filed under 'N' for 'Not our problem.'

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

evolving_doors

beveragelady wrote: »

Just got off the phone with the DVO (at least, I started with the DVO, I got transferred around a lot and I have no idea where I landed) but I'm none the wiser. They can't give me any info about payment claims on my own land. They only way they can do that is if I make a claim myself, which I can't do because I'm not a farmer. They don't want the folio number, they want the plot number, which I can only get if I'm a farmer. I said "So somebody could fraudulently be claiming payments based on land they don't own but there's no way for me to even alert you to the possibility that this is happening?" Nope. No interest.
I was advised to write in to the Basic Payments section with a map with the relevant sections coloured in and a letter saying that I'm the landowner and nobody has my permission to farm this land or to make claims for payments. No suggestion as to the sort of map or the scale. I'm going to have to include the folio numbers, OS coordinates etc, or else what use is a map of some fields? They could be anywhere in the country! I think the point is, I'm welcome to write the letter but it'll be filed under 'N' for 'Not our problem.'

Make an anonymous complaint to revenue. Tell them you suspect someone is making a false claim as you heard them claiming they owned a field when you know they don't. Dunno if it's revenues remit but it'd cost ya nothing.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Lady Haywire

beveragelady wrote: »

Just got off the phone with the DVO (at least, I started with the DVO, I got transferred around a lot and I have no idea where I landed) but I'm none the wiser. They can't give me any info about payment claims on my own land. They only way they can do that is if I make a claim myself, which I can't do because I'm not a farmer. They don't want the folio number, they want the plot number, which I can only get if I'm a farmer. I said "So somebody could fraudulently be claiming payments based on land they don't own but there's no way for me to even alert you to the possibility that this is happening?" Nope. No interest.
I was advised to write in to the Basic Payments section with a map with the relevant sections coloured in and a letter saying that I'm the landowner and nobody has my permission to farm this land or to make claims for payments. No suggestion as to the sort of map or the scale. I'm going to have to include the folio numbers, OS coordinates etc, or else what use is a map of some fields? They could be anywhere in the country! I think the point is, I'm welcome to write the letter but it'll be filed under 'N' for 'Not our problem.'

When we get maps sent out from the Dept, it's just shots of Google Earth with land parcel numbers marked next to them. I'd say that's closest to what they mean by maps.
Try this site to get your folio number- https://www.landdirect.ie/pramap.aspx/
Zoom in to your piece of land and when it's fully zoomed in, you can click on the parcel and on the right hand side the number, acerage etc will pop up for you like so


Then see on the right hand side it says 'Highlight all areas'. If you click that it will show pieces of land in the same name or plot area or something, Im not sure to be exact but see in img below, three small pieces of land have also been highlighted. It's def same owner anyway as it's our land! (three small pieces are bogland for turf)



And the yellow strips......right of ways! Which show up as a 'burden' on the right hand side.

beveragelady

I have the folio number. As I said above I've been told they don't want that or the plan number, they want a plot number and only farmers have plot numbers.
Actually, could anybody here confirm that folio/plan numbers are not the same as the plot numbers the Dept of Ag deals with?

Atlantic Dawn

beveragelady wrote: »

Just got off the phone with the DVO (at least, I started with the DVO, I got transferred around a lot and I have no idea where I landed) but I'm none the wiser. They can't give me any info about payment claims on my own land. They only way they can do that is if I make a claim myself, which I can't do because I'm not a farmer. They don't want the folio number, they want the plot number, which I can only get if I'm a farmer. I said "So somebody could fraudulently be claiming payments based on land they don't own but there's no way for me to even alert you to the possibility that this is happening?" Nope. No interest.
I was advised to write in to the Basic Payments section with a map with the relevant sections coloured in and a letter saying that I'm the landowner and nobody has my permission to farm this land or to make claims for payments. No suggestion as to the sort of map or the scale. I'm going to have to include the folio numbers, OS coordinates etc, or else what use is a map of some fields? They could be anywhere in the country! I think the point is, I'm welcome to write the letter but it'll be filed under 'N' for 'Not our problem.'

Rather crazy attitude they have, I thought they took food security seriously, someone could be putting animals on land contaminated with all sorts and that then gets in to the food chain, so much for all the effort they put in to controlling foot and mouth.

_Brian

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Rather crazy attitude they have, I thought they took food security seriously, someone could be putting animals on land contaminated with all sorts and that then gets in to the food chain, so much for all the effort they put in to controlling foot and mouth.

There’s odd lads that have chanced their arm and claimed payments on empty plots of land. It doesn’t mean the cattle are on them though.
It’s small scale messing about, the odd half acre here and there.

If OP wants to do something they should talk to the guards about trespass and damage done. I’d say though you’ll have to push it hard as they won’t be too keen on getting involved in a neighbor dispute.

UrbanFox

Could this be a tendentious exercise in land grabbing ? Specifically, is the neighbour literally moving the boundary in his interpretation of the hedges and ditches rule ?

In relation to trespass, I would be curious to know how frequently the drain clearing exercise takes place. If this is a frequent operation could he argue implied consent to commit what would otherwise constitute an act of trespass.

beveragelady

UrbanFox wrote: »

Could this be a tendentious exercise in land grabbing ? Specifically, is the neighbour literally moving the boundary in his interpretation of the hedges and ditches rule ?

In relation to trespass, I would be curious to know how frequently the drain clearing exercise takes place. If this is a frequent operation could he argue implied consent to commit what would otherwise constitute an act of trespass.

The drain is accessible more easily from his side. This was a bullying tactic and an act of aggression, though it's possible he has notions of making a claim for adverse possession at some point in the future.

brian_t

beveragelady wrote: »

I have the folio number. As I said above I've been told they don't want that or the plan number, they want a plot number and only farmers have plot numbers.
Actually, could anybody here confirm that folio/plan numbers are not the same as the plot numbers the Dept of Ag deals with?

Your neighbour messed up your field when he cleaned the ditch because he didn't want to mess up his own field.

This doesn't imply that he is claiming Area aid money on your field.

He may be but all this talk about grants and the Dept of Agriculture is a red herring that doesn't address your main problem of his criminal tresspass.

beveragelady

brian_t wrote: »

Your neighbour messed up your field when he cleaned the ditch because he didn't want to mess up his own field.

This doesn't imply that he is claiming Area aid money on your field.

He may be but all this talk about grants and the Dept of Agriculture is a red herring that doesn't address your main problem of his criminal tresspass.

I'm aware the two things aren't directly related, but they're all aspects of the same mess. Dealing with the possibility of payment claims doesn't preclude me from tackling the issues of trespass and damage.
I'm grateful for the suggestion that the farm payments might be an avenue to pursue. In fact, I'm hoping that I discover that he hasn't made any claims because that would scupper his game of pretending to think he owns the field. Bear in mind, I'm 100% certain that he's fully aware it's not his field, he's pretending to think it is so I'll give up and hand it over. Destroying trees and trespassing and dumping the debris from the drain is part of his heavy-handed approach.

brian_t

I don't know why posters think the Dept of Ag will get involved in land ownership disputes and farm grants have nothing to do with the Revenue.

What size is your field ?

You can apply for a forestry grant even if you are not a farmer.

I think the minimum plot size is one ha (see page 30)

https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/crops/forestry/grants/AfforestationSchemeEd2190315.pdf

fepper

The dept of ag will only get involved if multiple claims from farmers on the same area of land,if it's only one claim on that land from a farmer, thats acceptable to dept

Limestone Cowboy

An agricultural advisor/consultant will be able to get the lpis (land parcel identification system) number for you if you can show them the plot on the map.

beveragelady

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

An agricultural advisor/consultant will be able to get the lpis (land parcel identification system) number for you if you can show them the plot on the map.

Sorry, I'm well outside my area of expertise here, some of these questions are probably embarrassingly stupid.

is the lpis a different number from the folio and plan numbers the land registry use? Is it the same as the plot number the lady in the DVO asked me for?

Limestone Cowboy

beveragelady wrote: »

Sorry, I'm well outside my area of expertise here, some of these questions are probably embarrassingly stupid.

is the lpis a different number from the folio and plan numbers the land registry use? Is it the same as the plot number the lady in the DVO asked me for?

Ya the lpis number is what the department of agriculture use for reference.

brian_t

beveragelady wrote: »

Sorry, I'm well outside my area of expertise here, some of these questions are probably embarrassingly stupid.

is the lpis a different number from the folio and plan numbers the land registry use? Is it the same as the plot number the lady in the DVO asked me for?

There are strict penalties for claiming aid money that you are not entitled to and farmers are aware of this.

There is nothing in what your neighbour has done that suggests that he is claiming money on your field.

I think some posters here are sending you on a wild goose chase.

Concentrate on sorting out the criminal damage that your neighbour did.

beveragelady wrote: »

Just got off the phone with the DVO (at least, I started with the DVO, I got transferred around a lot and I have no idea where I landed) but I'm none the wiser.

The poster that advised you to contact the DVO was wasting your time.

evolving_doors

Well if the alleged offending farmer is claiming then hes goosed.
If he's not claiming then the op could ask him why he isn't if he thinks the land is his!
Besides... the op has a bit of time and interest and is learning stuff. Maybe not relevant right now but still good to know imo.

beveragelady

brian_t wrote: »

There are strict penalties for claiming aid money that you are not entitled to and farmers are aware of this.

There is nothing in what your neighbour has done that suggests that he is claiming money on your field.

I think some posters here are sending you on a wild goose chase.

Concentrate on sorting out the criminal damage that your neighbour did.




The poster that advised you to contact the DVO was wasting your time.

Again, I'm grateful for the heads-up about farm payments and the suggestion to contact the DVO. It has nothing to do with the trespassing or the damage to trees but it is definitely relevant to the farmer's thickheaded insistence that it's his field.

I have asked a couple of questions about farm payments in the farming forum and I'm satisfied with the answers. Just to clarify, I'm fairly certain that he won't have made any claims, and this will scupper his argument that he thought it was his field all along. If it turns out that the big eejit has been claiming payments using my field as extra acreage then I will lose no sleep if he's hauled over the coals by the relevant authorities.

Just because the focus of the thread has moved to the issue of farm payments doesn't mean I'm no longer bothering about the damage to my trees. I may not be on familiar ground here but I'm capable of holding more than one thought in my head at the same time.

Again, thanks to everybody who offered proper advice and was so patient with my stupid questions.

beveragelady

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Ya the lpis number is what the department of agriculture use for reference.

Thanks. This is the sort of thing I need to be told. I'll see if I can do something about that tomorrow. Is there any way to find the lpis myself, or do I definitely need to ask a consultant?

brian_t

beveragelady wrote: »

Just to clarify, I'm fairly certain that he won't have made any claims, and this will scupper his argument that he thought it was his field all along.

If he is argueing that he thought field was his all along - then whether or not he claimed subsidies on the field will be irrelevant.

You are not supposed to claim subsidies on land that you own but are not utilising.

brian_t

beveragelady wrote: »

Thanks. This is the sort of thing I need to be told. I'll see if I can do something about that tomorrow. Is there any way to find the lpis myself, or do I definitely need to ask a consultant?

Just to point out that if nobody has ever claimed subsidies on that field then I don't think it will have a Land Parcel Identification System (LIPS) number.

fepper

brian_t wrote: »

Just to point out that if nobody has ever claimed subsidies on that field then I don't think it will have a Land Parcel Identification System (LIPS) number.

Its no harm to find out its status anyway

beveragelady

I have just found out for certain that farm payments have been made to the farmer that were calculated to include my field.
Obviously I can't allow this to continue. Since this thread was started I have done a couple of small things to that field (I moved a beehive down there and registered it with the dept of Ag and I have done a tiny bit of fencing). Fences are damaged on an ongoing basis so I've stopped trying to keep his livestock out of it.
My current plan is as follows:
I'm going to have a chat with a member of my neighbour's family who has begun to take over the running of their farm. I'm going to suggest that they lease that field from me for a nominal sum (I was thinking maybe a tenner a year), with a number of conditions.* That would allow things to continue exactly as they are. There would be no need for the dept of ag to know they were receiving payments they weren't entitled to and there would be no further pointless discussion as to ownership. Everything would be done via solicitors to eliminate all possible confusion.

Anybody see any pitfalls here?

(I have established 100% that I own the field. There is on point offering suggestions about that aspect of this problem. However my concern in the long term is that they might attempt adverse possession based on a claim that they have farmed this land etc. I really just need them to accept that I'm not going to be intimidated into giving up.)


*Proposed conditions:
The lease is on a yearly basis, my beehive remains where it is, I have continued access to the hive and the field, no heavy machinery is to be brought into the field and no alterations made to drainage, hedges etc without consultation.

the_pen_turner

your too soft.
turf them out