Crib Controversy at Beaumont Hospital

DickSwiveller

jh79 wrote: »

It fairness the pagan random sh*te was justed replaced with christian random sh*te. Both random sh*te though.

Do you repsect all religions ? Even ones that you think are just some "other random sh*te". How did you decide your random sh*te was better than all the other random sh*te ?

Please see my comment above. It's addressed to the sneerers.

DickSwiveller

splinter65 wrote: »

People crave approval. Approval is found mostly in conforming to whatever way the prevailing wind is blowing.
Currently the trend is to be as insulting and dismissive as possible of any belief system (as long as it’s not Islam, Islam is out of bounds mysteriously, I think it’s becsuse Muslims are mostly brown skinned) whilst simultaneously crying if anyone “offends” you with “hate speech” ( hate speech is anything right wing, conservative, anything basically we used to accept as fact).

Well said.

jh79

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Please see my comment above. It's addressed to the sneerers.

It fairness the post i responded too was sneering at other beliefs by calling them "random sh*ite".

Why does anybody need to believe in any variations of "random sh*ite" to have a fufilled life?

DickSwiveller

jh79 wrote: »

It fairness the post i responded too was sneering at other beliefs by calling them "random sh*ite".

Why does anybody need to believe in any variations of "random sh*ite" to have a fufilled life?

Because not everyone is as smart as you.

Billy86

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Why don't trendy atheists understand that for many religious people their faith is not fundamentally and absolutely about belief in God, but about so much more. Is it a bad thing that people form social bonds of solidarity, increasingly absent in a consumerist, materialist age? Why mock people who get great comfort from meeting others and feeling apart of something. I -not overly religious- attended evening carols in my local church on Saturday and was moved by the whole occasion. My grandparents are in their early 90's and gain great strength from their involvement in their local church. Why mock these people, calling them delusional and saying they believe in sky-fairies? Would you rather we all live empty lives, sitting at home watching television all day?

I say they believe in sky fairies because my god I guess would be science, so yeah the likes of burning bushes and whatnot are just that. It's not 'trendy' it's just stating the f***ing obvious.

If they want to believe in that then they are free to, I have no issue with that whatsoever. Much like someone who still listens to Limp Bizkit however, I don't have to take them seriously and I don't have to pretend that their stories are real just for their own benefit, just like I don't have to pretend Fred Durst is a good rapper for the benefit of whoever the f*** still likes Limp Bizkit.

That said, if Limp Bizkit posters on the walls of a hospital would people feel better and possibly even add even just a tiny, tiny chance of someone surviving that otherwise wouldn't, on the basis that Fred Durst and Guitarist Guy With Coloured Contact Lenses just are not ready for them yet and need them to buy some more copies of Significant Other before there time on earth is done, I'd happily see allowed that too.

But I don't have to pretend Limp Bizkit are a good band for the sake of Limp Bizkit fans, just like I don't have to pretend God and all the Biblical stories are real for the sake of fans of Christ, and just like Christians don't have to pretend to me that they also think something is real, good or useful just because I believe in it.

Billy86

splinter65 wrote: »

People crave approval. Approval is found mostly in conforming to whatever way the prevailing wind is blowing.
Currently the trend is to be as insulting and dismissive as possible of any belief system (as long as it’s not Islam, Islam is out of bounds mysteriously, I think it’s becsuse Muslims are mostly brown skinned) whilst simultaneously crying if anyone “offends” you with “hate speech” ( hate speech is anything right wing, conservative, anything basically we used to accept as fact).

The irony here is playing the victim is actually the big 'trend' these days, and you've given pretty much a textbook explanation as to how as if you look back you'll actually note my post that DickSwiveller quoted actually specifically brought up Islam and Judaism as well, because the victimhood 'trend' is nothing if not predictable.

DickSwiveller

Billy86 wrote: »

I say they believe in sky fairies because my god I guess would be science, so yeah the likes of burning bushes and whatnot are just that. It's not 'trendy' it's just stating the f***ing obvious.

If they want to believe in that then they are free to, I have no issue with that whatsoever. Much like someone who still listens to Limp Bizkit however, I don't have to take them seriously and I don't have to pretend that their stories are real just for their own benefit, just like I don't have to pretend Fred Durst is a good rapper for the benefit of whoever the f*** still likes Limp Bizkit.

That said, if Limp Bizkit posters on the walls of a hospital would people feel better and possibly even add even just a tiny, tiny chance of someone surviving that otherwise wouldn't, on the basis that Fred Durst and Guitarist Guy With Coloured Contact Lenses just are not ready for them yet and need them to buy some more copies of Significant Other before there time on earth is done, I'd happily see allowed that too.

But I don't have to pretend Limp Bizkit are a good band for the sake of Limp Bizkit fans, just like I don't have to pretend God and all the Biblical stories are real for the sake of fans of Christ, and just like Christians don't have to pretend to me that they also think something is real, good or useful just because I believe in it.

Are you that immature that you can't respond without using expletives? As usual with you people, you're concentrating on the question of whether God exists, all be it in an aggressive and dismissive manner. The fact is that for many people it brings them a sense of fulfillment and meaning. What is your problem with that? How far do you extend your aggressive dismissal of religion? If a poor mother is grieving for a dead child, in the hope that she will see her in the afterlife, will you possess the arrogance to give her a lecture on the philosophy of science? I wouldn't be surprised.

I'm not responding to your Limp Bizkit - whoever they are- point.

kylith

The only issue I have with cribs in public is that the people who complain about not being allowed put up cribs are the same sort of people who would complain if any other religions put stuff up at their festival times.

'Why can't we put up cribs? It gives people comfort'

'Navrati decorations?! Fuppin' Hindus forcing their religion on us. An Irish hospital is no place for pagan mumbo jumbo.'

DickSwiveller

kylith wrote: »

The only issue I have with cribs in public is that the people who complain about not being allowed put up cribs are the same sort of people who would complain if any other religions put stuff up at their festival times.

'Why can't we put up cribs? It gives people comfort'

'Navrati decorations?! Fuppin' Hindus forcing their religion on us. An Irish hospital is no place for pagan mumbo jumbo.'

Ireland is a Catholic Country. The vast majority of people are Catholics. Putting a crib up is a tradition that goes back hundreds of years. Do you people just want to spoil everything that brings joy to people? Do you want to live in a vacuous, empty, consumerist world where everyone is miserable?

Bubbaclaus

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Ireland is a Catholic Country.

Source please?

Last I checked it was a secular country.

Billy86

[QUOTE=DickSwiveller;105651038]Are you that immature that you can't respond without using expletives? As usual with you people, you're concentrating on the question of whether God exists, all be it in an aggressive and dismissive manner. The fact is that for many people it brings them a sense of fulfillment and meaning. What is your problem with that? How far do you extend your aggressive dismissal of religion? If a poor mother is grieving for a dead child, in the hope that she will see her in the afterlife, will you possess the arrogance to give her a lecture on the philosophy of science? I wouldn't be surprised.

I'm not responding to your Limp Bizkit - whoever they are- point.[/QUOTE]
Eeehhhh Dick, be honest... in your haste to get offended, did you actually read my first post that you responded to? Here it is again, with bolded text for emphasis:

Billy86 wrote: »

Yeah, the story of God/Jesus is a fairytale just as much as the story of Muhammad, Abraham parting the red sea etc. Still that doesn't take away from the fact that the symbolism behind it is something a lot of people draw 'strength' from (the trick being that that's usually the same place some members of any given faith draw hatred of others not like them/non-believers/etc from) and given that we do know placebos work to an extent, there is no harm in keeping the likes of the cribs up to give hope etc to the dying to.

It's also not a matter of 'who got there first' re Dec 24th/25th, that's not something people ask themselves if indulging in their faith. There are more Christians in Ireland than any other faith (or non faith) by a wide margin.

And I'm not religious in the slightest to clear that up. There's more than a good bit of bad blood between my immediate family and the Catholic Church over the last 20 years, and I'm not a fan of organised religions in general, but the numbers of followers of organised religions are dwindling. That said it's not something you could or should attempt to stamp out or forcibly remove, especially too quickly, because that tends to lead to a backlash.

Kind of a horrible irony to say this given the subject matter, but let the religious people die out peacefully on their own, with their faith. I can say for one anyway that the vast, vast majority of religious people very rarely look to meddle with my life or choice to believe in none of them. And I wouldn't count a chunk of plastic in a hospital for a day or two to be doing so whatsoever.

kylith

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Ireland is a Catholic Country. The vast majority of people are Catholics. Putting a crib up is a tradition that goes back hundreds of years. Do you people just want to spoil everything that brings joy to people? Do you want to live in a vacuous, empty, consumerist world where everyone is miserable?

A) Show me Ireland's baptismal cert, please. Flippancy aside; church attendance is in freefall*, and Ireland does not have a state-mandated religion.

Spoil everything that brings joy to people? Certainly not, if anything the opposite. I want either everyone to be able to publically celebrate their festivals. Why? Would you not allow Eid decor, or Hanukkah menorah, or Diwali lights? IMO it's all or nothing: either every religion gets to put stuff up or no-one does.

* Less than 80% of the population claim to be Catholic. Of that number less than 20% attend mass.

baylah17

DickSwiveller wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

The only issue I have with cribs in public is that the people who complain about not being allowed put up cribs are the same sort of people who would complain if any other religions put stuff up at their festival times.

'Why can't we put up cribs? It gives people comfort'

'Navrati decorations?! Fuppin' Hindus forcing their religion on us. An Irish hospital is no place for pagan mumbo jumbo.'

Ireland is a Catholic country

The self same words that condemned Savita Hallapanavar to death in an Irish state funded hospital.

DickSwiveller

baylah17 wrote: »

The self same words that condemned Savita Hallapanavar to death in an Irish state funded hospital.

Oh are you back to using a dead woman as ammo for your political agenda?

Jimbob1977

The Taliban didn't fancy old religious statues in Afghanistan that predated Islam.... so they blew them up.

It was a crime against history and culture.

Would atheists and secularists support the demolition of the Vatican, the Temple Mount, the Sagrada Familia, Notre Dame Cathedral, Angkor Wat, Mecca, wiccan sites like Newgrange and Stonehenge?

After all, there is no deity and secularism is the only orthodoxy permitted.

DickSwiveller

kylith wrote: »

A) Show me Ireland's baptismal cert, please. Flippancy aside; church attendance is in freefall*, and Ireland does not have a state-mandated religion.

Spoil everything that brings joy to people? Certainly not, if anything the opposite. I want either everyone to be able to publically celebrate their festivals. Why? Would you not allow Eid decor, or Hanukkah menorah, or Diwali lights? IMO it's all or nothing: either every religion gets to put stuff up or no-one does.

* Less than 80% of the population claim to be Catholic. Of that number less than 20% attend mass.

I've no problem with Muslims, Hindus etc celebrating their festivals. When did I say I did? You've just made that up. When I say it's a Caholic country, I mean that most people are Catholics, which is a fact. Public buildings, such as hospitals, have had cribs for hundreds of years because it is a Catholic tradition. But never mind, lets get rid of everything, all cathedrals, great religious paintings, Bach's music, and lets enjoy the emptiness of our materialist wasteland. Yipee!

kylith

DickSwiveller wrote: »

I've no problem with Muslims, Hindus etc celebrating their festivals. When did I say I did? You've just made that up. When I say it's a Caholic country, I mean that most people are Catholics, which is a fact. Public buildings, such as hospitals, have had cribs for hundreds of years because it is a Catholic tradition. But never mind, lets get rid of everything, all cathedrals, great religious paintings, Bach's music, and lets enjoy the emptiness of our materialist wasteland. Yipee!

I didn't make anything up, I asked a question.

Most Irish people have been baptised Catholic, yes. How many could legitimately be considered to actually be Catholic, by following Catholic teaching and attending mass, is debatable.

So, you'd be happy to have menorahs and Ramadan decorations up in hospitals? After all, they are public buildings and Ireland has a growing number of immigrants who bring their religion with them. It could bring them comfort.

jh79

DickSwiveller wrote: »

I've no problem with Muslims, Hindus etc celebrating their festivals. When did I say I did? You've just made that up. When I say it's a Caholic country, I mean that most people are Catholics, which is a fact. Public buildings, such as hospitals, have had cribs for hundreds of years because it is a Catholic tradition. But never mind, lets get rid of everything, all cathedrals, great religious paintings, Bach's music, and lets enjoy the emptiness of our materialist wasteland. Yipee!

Keep the cathedrals could be converted into nice gastro pub or a nightclub.

Might as well get some use out of them.

end of the road

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Ireland is a Catholic Country. The vast majority of people are Catholics.

ireland isn't a catholic country but a secular republic. the vast majority of people are not catholic, only a small minority of people are.

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Putting a crib up is a tradition that goes back hundreds of years. Do you people just want to spoil everything that brings joy to people?

no, i want schools and hospitals to either be completely secular, or be willing to allow for symbols of all religions.

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Do you want to live in a vacuous, empty, consumerist world where everyone is miserable?

no . however we don't need religion to stop such a world from happening, and religion won't prevent it from happening.

JohnMc1

RobertKK wrote: »

Some people like being offended so they can complain they are offended.

This. Sadly we're in a grievance and victim era now where everybody is looking to be offended or victimized somehow. Eventually you have to blame the people who pander and cave into them.

If a Nativity scene and Christmas tree offend them then maybe they should find a Country that doesn't celebrate Christmas and move there immediately.

end of the road

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

The Taliban didn't fancy old religious statues in Afghanistan that predated Islam.... so they blew them up.

It was a crime against history and culture.

absolutely. 100% agree.

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Would atheists and secularists support the demolition of the Vatican, the Temple Mount, the Sagrada Familia, Notre Dame Cathedral, Angkor Wat, Mecca, wiccan sites like Newgrange and Stonehenge?

of course not. it's ridiculous to think that because one supports secularism in terms of state services that they want eradication of everything religious.

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

After all, there is no deity and secularism is the only orthodoxy permitted.

not true. realistically if religion is going to have some part in society, we need to be inclusive of all religions.

DickSwiveller

end of the road wrote: »

absolutely. 100% agree.



of course not. it's ridiculous to think that because one supports secularism in terms of state services that they want eradication of everything religious.



not true. realistically if religion is going to have some part in society, we need to be inclusive of all religions.

You just said you want all state schools to be secular. Is that inclusive f people who want their children to have a Catholic education?

tomwaterford

kylith wrote: »

.

Spoil everything that brings joy to people? Certainly not, if anything the opposite. I want either everyone to be able to publically celebrate their festivals. Why? Would you not allow Eid decor, or Hanukkah menorah, or Diwali lights? IMO it's all or nothing: either every religion gets to put stuff up or no-one does.
.

Has anyone actually objected to this though??


I see nothing wrong with the nativity being put up....so long as it isn't the state paying for people to waste time to put them up....if patients put it up,what harm

DickSwiveller

tomwaterford wrote: »

Has anyone actually objected to this though??


I see nothing wrong with the nativity being put up....so long as it isn't the state paying for people to waste time to put them up....if patients put it up,what harm

Ye, I'm sure it costs millions to put up a crib.

tomwaterford

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Ye, I'm sure it costs millions to put up a crib.

The state shouldn't be spending any money on it??


Esp the health service....the state of it,with waiting lists...they hardly can justify any waste?

kylith

DickSwiveller wrote: »

You just said you want all state schools to be secular. Is that inclusive f people who want their children to have a Catholic education?

They can have a Catholic education, if they or the RCC are prepared to pay for it. Or if they feel that strongly about it why can they not teach their children about their religion themselves? Schools funded by the state should have no religious bias.

tomwaterford wrote: »

Has anyone actually objected to this though??


I see nothing wrong with the nativity being put up....so long as it isn't the state paying for people to waste time to put them up....if patients put it up,what harm

No harm at all, but as I said; if the Muslim patients put up decorations for their festivals are those people who want the cribs going to be ok with that?

Bubbaclaus

DickSwiveller wrote: »

You just said you want all state schools to be secular. Is that inclusive f people who want their children to have a Catholic education?

What do parents of other religions currently do if they want their children to have a *insert religion here* education in Ireland?

server down

kylith wrote: »

The only issue I have with cribs in public is that the people who complain about not being allowed put up cribs are the same sort of people who would complain if any other religions put stuff up at their festival times.

'Why can't we put up cribs? It gives people comfort'

'Navrati decorations?! Fuppin' Hindus forcing their religion on us. An Irish hospital is no place for pagan mumbo jumbo.'

That’s a straw man. I’m in favour of all those religions being represented. And I’m an atheist. I guess however that the kind of people oppressed by a crib would cry bigot at those who opposed some other religious symbolism.

server down

kylith wrote: »

They can have a Catholic education, if they or the RCC are prepared to pay for it. Or if they feel that strongly about it why can they not teach their children about their religion themselves? Schools funded by the state should have no religious bias.

Why not? Let’s find Muslim, Anglican, Jewish and catholic schools. However a strict curriculum.

No harm at all, but as I said; if the Muslim patients put up decorations for their festivals are those people who want the cribs going to be ok with that?

That’s exactly what we should do. Would angry new atheists be ok with that? Because it would be

DickSwiveller

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

What do parents of other religions currently do if they want their children to have a *insert religion here* education in Ireland?

Why should the religion of secularism get precedence over all other religions?