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Tubeless road - it actually works

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  • Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭andy69


    Very true. It’s also worth noting that running a tube with a tubeless tyre/rim combo other than as a ‘get you home’ measure is combining the worst of both worlds and setting oneself up for trouble in the future.

    Really? Why is that I wonder? Just checking because my new bike came with tubless ready tyres and wheels (which I'm not using, they're going to be my spares/windy winter wheels) - they currently have tubes in them but I was gonna switch them over when I take off my deep section wheels in October and was in two minds about going tubeless or leaving the tubes in. You have me wondering now if running tubed might not be a good idea?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭H.E. Pennypacker


    andy69 wrote: »
    Really? Why is that I wonder? Just checking because my new bike came with tubless ready tyres and wheels (which I'm not using, they're going to be my spares/windy winter wheels) - they currently have tubes in them but I was gonna switch them over when I take off my deep section wheels in October and was in two minds about going tubeless or leaving the tubes in. You have me wondering now if running tubed might not be a good idea?

    What I meant is that tubeless tyres are generally harder to put on/take off than tyres that work with a tube. When they're used with sealant and no tubes, they should self-repair and there should be a lot less need to remove them. If you carry tyre worms and maybe some spare sealant, you shouldn't need to ever use a tube or to remove the tyre while you're on a spin. If you tear a sidewall badly, a tube will be no good to you anyway.

    If you run a tube in a tubeless tyre and you puncture, you will have no choice but to change the tube which will involve all the hassle of removing a tubeless tyre. You'll likely have higher rolling resistance too as tubeless tyres tend to be a little more robust so there's no benefit that I can see.

    For your own setup, you'd need to have a look and see how much hassle is involved in removing the tyre. If its particularly hard to do at home then I wouldn't run them tubed. That said, there are several different tubeless rim standards and some are harder to mount than others. In addition, some people are better at working the tyre into the centre of the rim to give more slack so that the tyre is easier to remove. Some people have stronger thumbs and some have better tyre levers. All that adds up to different experiences in living with tubeless but one thing is sure - its easier to find these things out at home than in the cold and rain.


  • Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭andy69


    What I meant is that tubeless tyres are generally harder to put on/take off than tyres that work with a tube. When they're used with sealant and no tubes, they should self-repair and there should be a lot less need to remove them. If you carry tyre worms and maybe some spare sealant, you shouldn't need to ever use a tube or to remove the tyre while you're on a spin. If you tear a sidewall badly, a tube will be no good to you anyway.

    If you run a tube in a tubeless tyre and you puncture, you will have no choice but to change the tube which will involve all the hassle of removing a tubeless tyre. You'll likely have higher rolling resistance too as tubeless tyres tend to be a little more robust so there's no benefit that I can see.

    For your own setup, you'd need to have a look and see how much hassle is involved in removing the tyre. If its particularly hard to do at home then I wouldn't run them tubed. That said, there are several different tubeless rim standards and some are harder to mount than others. In addition, some people are better at working the tyre into the centre of the rim to give more slack so that the tyre is easier to remove. Some people have stronger thumbs and some have better tyre levers. All that adds up to different experiences in living with tubeless but one thing is sure - its easier to find these things out at home than in the cold and rain.

    Ah ok! Nice one, thanks!
    I'm gonna try them tubeless I think. You guys have me convinced in this thread... especially seeing as i have them an' all.... and there was a Ad/vid from GCN just recently with Mavic and how they're much easier to work with with the right tyre/rim combo, which I have now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭H.E. Pennypacker


    andy69 wrote: »
    Ah ok! Nice one, thanks!
    I'm gonna try them tubeless I think. You guys have me convinced in this thread... especially seeing as i have them an' all.... and there was a Ad/vid from GCN just recently with Mavic and how they're much easier to work with with the right tyre/rim combo, which I have now.


    Definitely worth a go. Have a read of this: https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news/living-with-tubeless-tyres


  • Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭theunforgiven


    As a follow up:
    Wheels arrived yesterday, (Ksyrium pro UST) I deflated the tyres and then pushing the bead into the middle of the rim on both sides there was easily enough slack to get a tyre lever under the tyre if I I needed to remove it.
    I didn't take the tyre off, so in theory it could be done easily enough.

    It took a bit of effort to unseat the tyre, a snap/pop when it happened but it seemed that it would definitely be manageable to remove the tyre should I need to (I have hexed it now, haven't I)

    I pumped the tyres up to 7 bar (using a track pump) and left them for a while, deflated and was able to unseat it again (to make sure the first time wasn't a fluke! :-) )

    I added sealant as per the Mavic video on YT, pumped to max recommended pressure of 7 bar and when I checked this morning before work, the tyres were still fully inflated.

    So,first impressions are that it wasn't as bad as I thought, but time will tell.
    I will take them for a spin later in the week when I can put them on the bike and will report back if anyone is interested.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 316 ✭✭thelawman


    Got a puncture on the new Mavics this morning, it sealed itself in a few seconds, didn’t even get off the bike, only lost a few psi, will have a look for the offending thorn later!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    I rode my tubeless for the 4 days of Ras Mumhann, and they had about 3000km on them before that, No punctures as of yet, I run about 65-70psi at about 65kg.
    Sworks Turbo 2bliss 28mm


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    I used my Specialized Sworks turbo 2bliss for the Ras mumhann at 65psi, I weigh 65 kg. I had no issues and had about 3000km on them before that, 28mm wide.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    What are Continental playing at? The 25mm tubeless is 1mm wider than their 25mm non tubeless gp 5000 :confused: and there is no 23mm version. Many deep section carbon wheel are still designed around using a 23mm tyre as 23mm will actually measure 25-27 when inflated on a rim with a wide inner width.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,561 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    Last summer I had to switch from Pro One 25 to Pro One 23 on the rear as the 25 became over 28 with age and I was getting wheel rub. Bikes around 2013/2014 tended to have small clearances


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  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭mp2012


    MediaMan wrote: »
    Running Schwalbe Pro Ones on DT Swiss wheels. When installing, front wheel sealed first time, rear was a nightmare, in part I believe due to the asymmetric rim. After about 20 failed attempts, had to add gorilla tape to improve the seal and now it it's fine. Very happy with the tyres. Roll well, grip well, 85/80 psi, 74 kg. No punctures after 6 months (jinx!).

    Hi MediaMan, I got a set of Pro Ones and have DT Swiss wheels and as you did the front went on straight away no issues but I still can't get the rear to stay without a tube. When you deflated your tyres do they unseat themselves? Everytime I deflate to put in sealant they unseat and then I can't use the track pump to re-inflate but have to use CO2. I am getting a Schwalbe Tire Booster put just looking to see if you have any pointers with similar set up.

    Thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,033 ✭✭✭who_ru


    Hi

    In your experience folks, is it better to have tubeless rim tape the same width of the tyre or slightly wider? I have 25mm tyres but 27mm rim tape. Shouldn’t bean issue?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭brownian


    Just a side comment, regarding long distance touring. I'm off to Italy for a few weeks of cycling, later this summer, and will be replacing my tubeless setup with tubed. While I think that tubeless is great if you've got a home base within a few hours, and a track pump handy to keep the pressures up and to reseat a tyre if need be, I find that a week out from home the advantages are much less.

    Specifically
    - any major puncture may lead to the need for more sealant, and I'm not carting a bottle of that around. Half a bottle maybe, but I"ve yet to find one that didn't leak.
    - tyre pressure drops much more quickly in tubeless (Schwalbe pro ones).
    - rolling resistance and zippiness is less valuable when you have two big fat Ortlieb panniers handing off you.
    - bike tubes and normal tyres are more widely available
    - seating a tubeless tyre is a PITA unless you have a compressor or a really good track pump. Having the 'will I need to replace the tyre' worry hanging over me when I'm a week away from home is much more of an issue than on the Sally Gap.
    - a tyre boot is a genuinely useful article for which there is no equivalent, tubeless.

    So...am sacrificing the self-healing capability for easier dealing-with-middle-sized-problems.
    Just my 2 cent, and comment - not making any general recommendation here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,561 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    Tubeless seems to have worked well for you so far. Would you not leave your tubeless setup as is and carry an ordinary spare tyre and tube ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭brownian


    Tubeless seems to have worked well for you so far. Would you not leave your tubeless setup as is and carry an ordinary spare tyre and tube ?

    It's the pressure loss that really wrecks my head. With a track pump, no issue. But with the lipstick-sized thing that I carry around on the bike...urgh.

    For light touring (no wife, no panniers, no carrier), carrying a spare tyre (apart from the one built into my waist) messes up my packing strategies.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭H.E. Pennypacker


    brownian wrote: »
    Just a side comment, regarding long distance touring. I'm off to Italy for a few weeks of cycling, later this summer, and will be replacing my tubeless setup with tubed. While I think that tubeless is great if you've got a home base within a few hours, and a track pump handy to keep the pressures up and to reseat a tyre if need be, I find that a week out from home the advantages are much less.

    Specifically
    - any major puncture may lead to the need for more sealant, and I'm not carting a bottle of that around. Half a bottle maybe, but I"ve yet to find one that didn't leak.
    - tyre pressure drops much more quickly in tubeless (Schwalbe pro ones).
    - rolling resistance and zippiness is less valuable when you have two big fat Ortlieb panniers handing off you.
    - bike tubes and normal tyres are more widely available
    - seating a tubeless tyre is a PITA unless you have a compressor or a really good track pump. Having the 'will I need to replace the tyre' worry hanging over me when I'm a week away from home is much more of an issue than on the Sally Gap.
    - a tyre boot is a genuinely useful article for which there is no equivalent, tubeless.

    So...am sacrificing the self-healing capability for easier dealing-with-middle-sized-problems.
    Just my 2 cent, and comment - not making any general recommendation here.


    Why not just carry a spare tube (and maybe tyre boot) for a worst case scenario? They'll work with your tubeless tyre and you won't have seating problems then. In terms of a non-leaking sealant container, here's one that's easily packable with suitable capacity for two tyres: https://www.wiggle.co.uk/effetto-mariposa-caffelatex-tyre-sealant-60ml/

    Superglue and sealant works well for bigger tyre cuts. You'd have the best of both worlds then....

    Running tubed isn't a bad idea and is a practical solution - its your holiday and the important thing is that you enjoy it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    I think having to pump the tyres more frequently with a travel size pump is a major downside. Tubeless has it's place but I probably wouldn't go on a light weight bike tour with Tubeless tyres.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,561 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    Because you run them at lower pressure does this not mean that it is easier to get the required pressure with a small hand pump ?

    I also use a track pump on tubeless before almost every spin. Usually pumping from about 60 to 80 Don't view it as a hassle, just part of my pre spin routine, but it is a track pump


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭brownian


    Because you run them at lower pressure does this not mean that it is easier to get the required pressure with a small hand pump ?

    Not really. With tubed, you almost never have to top up. With tubeless, almost always.

    Don't get me wrong - in general I am a tubeless fanboy, but not while touring.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,478 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,033 ✭✭✭who_ru


    brownian wrote: »
    Just a side comment, regarding long distance touring. I'm off to Italy for a few weeks of cycling, later this summer, and will be replacing my tubeless setup with tubed. While I think that tubeless is great if you've got a home base within a few hours, and a track pump handy to keep the pressures up and to reseat a tyre if need be, I find that a week out from home the advantages are much less.

    Specifically
    - any major puncture may lead to the need for more sealant, and I'm not carting a bottle of that around. Half a bottle maybe, but I"ve yet to find one that didn't leak.
    - tyre pressure drops much more quickly in tubeless (Schwalbe pro ones).
    - rolling resistance and zippiness is less valuable when you have two big fat Ortlieb panniers handing off you.
    - bike tubes and normal tyres are more widely available
    - seating a tubeless tyre is a PITA unless you have a compressor or a really good track pump. Having the 'will I need to replace the tyre' worry hanging over me when I'm a week away from home is much more of an issue than on the Sally Gap.
    - a tyre boot is a genuinely useful article for which there is no equivalent, tubeless.

    So...am sacrificing the self-healing capability for easier dealing-with-middle-sized-problems.
    Just my 2 cent, and comment - not making any general recommendation here.

    You shouldn’t be experiencing pressure drops in the way you suggest. I have giant Gavia tubeless tires and last Saturday I did a 130km sportive. Pumped up front and back before the event. Got home and put bike in the shed.

    Took bike out of shed today, checked both tires and no pressure loss at all. Went out and did 85km today. Both tires were fitted by the shop I bought the bike in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,478 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    who_ru wrote: »
    You shouldn’t be experiencing pressure drops in the way you suggest. I have giant Gavia tubeless tires and last Saturday I did a 130km sportive. Pumped up front and back before the event. Got home and put bike in the shed.

    Took bike out of shed today, checked both tires and no pressure loss at all. Went out and did 85km today. Both tires were fitted by the shop I bought the bike in.

    It depends on the tyres. I have Yksion Pro UST on one bike and the pressure dropped a lot between spins. My other bike has WTB Resolutes and they hold air much better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭theunforgiven


    It depends on the tyres. I have Yksion Pro UST on one bike and the pressure dropped a lot between spins. My other bike has WTB Resolutes and they hold air much better.

    I have the same Mavic Tyres and find the same, the pressure drops about 20psi after a few days/week.
    Wasn't sure if this was normal for tubeless or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭MediaMan


    mp2012 wrote: »
    Hi MediaMan, I got a set of Pro Ones and have DT Swiss wheels and as you did the front went on straight away no issues but I still can't get the rear to stay without a tube. When you deflated your tyres do they unseat themselves? Everytime I deflate to put in sealant they unseat and then I can't use the track pump to re-inflate but have to use CO2. I am getting a Schwalbe Tire Booster put just looking to see if you have any pointers with similar set up.

    Thanks.

    Apologies, have been infrequent on boards in the last couple of months and missed this. Hope you got sorted out in the meantime, but in case you are still having issues...

    Bottom line is that there seems to be a design flaw or tolerance issue with the DT Swiss rear wheels, but you can still make it work.

    For me, originally the rear tyre would unseat if I let the air out, or even dropped it below 20 psi. Once I put extra rim/gorilla tape on, that was less inclined to happen. Then I left my tyres inflated (and unused) through the winter, pumping them up every now and again. When I went to clean the the wheels and tyres out and replace the sealant in April it took a bit of effort to get the tyres, including the rear, to unseat as they had become fairly well fixed on.

    When I went to reinstall the tyre I used an airshot (same as tire booster) and that worked fine. You can't carry that on the bike though! Also, remember you absolutely have to use soapy water or the Schwalbe equivalent liquid on the bead for the tyre to seat!

    I would suggest that if you can get the rear to stay seated with no air in, then, in contrast to what I did above, you should leave it that way indefinitely, even when replacing the sealant. Use a syringe to remove the old sealant and add the new stuff after removing the valve core. It's less messy too.

    If the tyre is still inclined to unseat when the air is let out, I'd suggest that's not a good situation, as if you get a puncture that doesn't seal then the tyre will unseat and you will need CO2 to re-seat it on the road like you described. And according to legend (and sealant small print), CO2 causes sealant to separate so you'll have to do it all again with a booster and new sealant when you get home.

    If you are still in that situation, I'd be inclined to either add extra rim tape and see if that helps or go back to tube-based on the rear.


  • Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭MediaMan


    brownian wrote: »
    For light touring (no wife, no panniers, no carrier)

    Had a good laugh at the thought that you would usually carry your wife around on your touring bike! :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,561 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    Went to do an interval session yesterday and heard air coming from the Schwalbe Pron One 23mm in the back of the van and saw sealant on the floor. Pumped the wheel up and it held enough pressure to get the session done though every now and then you would hear a small air release.

    Had a good look at the tyre afterwards and it was worn in a couple of places including around where the sealant was spewing out. So decided it was time to replace the tyre, just got a little over 3 months out of it. I notice that the front tyre seems to be lasting a lot longer, apart from weight distribution I suspect rear wheel lock ups has something to do with it.

    Anyway tried to fit a new Schwalbe Pro One 23mm last night which I had in waiting. Can't for the life of me get it to inflate. This is the third Pro One 23mm I'm trying to fit on this wheel, the other two went on fairly easily with the lifeline airblast.

    I can see rim tape after putting on the tyre so it is not seated tight against the rims but I think it was like this too previously. Have read back through this thread looking for ideas and am wondering about the rim tape. When I run my fingers around it I hear crackling sounds and there are air bubbles. This wasn't a problem with the old tyre which held pressure with the rim tape, I'm wondering was sealant playing a part here ?

    Does/should rim tape be replaced on a regular basis ? Don't have any rim tape at home and would need to wait a few days after ordering but I see others here have gotten away with Aldi Gorilla tape which I do have.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,408 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    I can see the trouble that, some, tubeless can cause. Be it getting it on the rim, inflation, staying inflated (although I suspect this issue is overblown!) and dealing with bigger punctures.

    I fail to see how it is a better system that the tried and testing tubes that have been used for ages. So they can be run at lower pressures, which is good for off-road, but then if you ride off-road then you probably have wider (28mm) tires anyway which can be run at lower pressures and offer more comfort anyway.

    I have tubeless ready on my bike with came with tubes and I have never bothered to go tubeless, and had tubeless running on another bike but when they punctured I refitted a tube and never bothered to go back.

    I don't cycle as much as I used to but even when I was doing quite a lot of training, punctures would be relatively rare. Sometimes you run into a bad run of them,but in those cases I would replace the tyre and that would generally deal with the issue.

    I suppose what I am trying to get at here is that is tubeless really worth the hassle? I appreciate that there are many that have no hassle at all with it, but it adds another level of complexity to riding a bike that I really don't see the need for.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,561 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    I can see the trouble that, some, tubeless can cause. Be it getting it on the rim, inflation, staying inflated (although I suspect this issue is overblown!) and dealing with bigger punctures.

    I fail to see how it is a better system that the tried and testing tubes that have been used for ages. So they can be run at lower pressures, which is good for off-road, but then if you ride off-road then you probably have wider (28mm) tires anyway which can be run at lower pressures and offer more comfort anyway.

    I have tubeless ready on my bike with came with tubes and I have never bothered to go tubeless, and had tubeless running on another bike but when they punctured I refitted a tube and never bothered to go back.

    I don't cycle as much as I used to but even when I was doing quite a lot of training, punctures would be relatively rare. Sometimes you run into a bad run of them,but in those cases I would replace the tyre and that would generally deal with the issue.

    I suppose what I am trying to get at here is that is tubeless really worth the hassle? I appreciate that there are many that have no hassle at all with it, but it adds another level of complexity to riding a bike that I really don't see the need for.

    I hope somebody can answer my question above or at least throw light on it.

    But to answer yours I haven't had a single puncture in a race since going tubeless in the latter part of 2017. Before that they were regular enough occurrences and are a real pisser when you drive 2-3 hours each way to a race. Unlike the pros, I've never got back into the bunch after a puncture and if one happens in a stage race you are looking at your name at the bottom of the listings.

    Part of the massive change may also be down to different wheels but I pretty sure tubeless plays its part in this. I see your point though, if I wasn't racing or looking to be particularly fast in sportives I probably wouldn't bother.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,561 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    See attached image guys showing the rim tape on the Carbonal wheel.

    You see the valve hole but also where tape has gone black where spokes are. The tape came with the wheel so I am not sure what exactly is under it.

    I suppose the question is is the tape a major factor in preventing air escape and if so are the areas where is has gone black likely to be a source of escape ?

    If so, I'm wondering too did the sealant from the previous tyre play a part in preventing air escape.

    If the tape is not a major factor then I reckon I am looking at the tyre seating but this never had me completely stuck before.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭H.E. Pennypacker


    I hope somebody can answer my question above or at least throw light on it

    You might need another layer of rim tape.

    I found the best way to seat tricky tubeless tyres is to remove the valve core and get air in fast at high pressure. A garage air line and suitable adaptor is one option...


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