Looks like the teachers aren't so lazy...

Brian? · 06-12-2017 12:39pm

Do you not see the irony here? A one size fits all system doesn't work for all, yet you're continually extolling the virtues of home schooling over public schooling.

Permabear · 06-12-2017 12:45pm

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Permabear · 06-12-2017 12:47pm

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c68zapdsm5i1ru · 06-12-2017 12:47pm

What does 'not prepared for lessons' mean, though? That they haven't filled in some prescribed form because they were too busy actually planning the lesson? Or that they wandered into the classroom with not a clue what they were doing?

There are many times, in many jobs, where you have to make a decision between doing the meaningless paper work or getting on with the important stuff. I would far prefer to have my children taught by someone with a passion and talent for the job, than by someone robotically filling in the right forms to the detriment of time spent in the classroom.

I would love to see the actual scenarios behind those statistics you quote. I suspect it's not as black and white as it seems.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 06-12-2017 12:49pm

Yes, but some children, in fact many children, really benefit from the social side of school and from the opportunities to play in a school sports team or take part in a school play or orchestra or join a debating society or all the many other things that are part and parcel of school life.

Boom_Bap · 06-12-2017 12:50pm

Teachers are trained to have a minute by minute lesson plan for the day I believe.

Permabear · 06-12-2017 12:53pm

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c68zapdsm5i1ru · 06-12-2017 12:54pm

Jeeze, I wonder how that works. What if some child comes up with an interesting question? Is he told to keep quiet because teacher has to stay to plan?
Or is some child is feeling sick? Is he just ignored because he's interfering with the day's schedule?

Boom_Bap · 06-12-2017 12:55pm

plans have contingencies. Teachers are not robots.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 06-12-2017 12:58pm

I think you'll find that a lot of them are doing it satisfactorily but don't have the onerous paperwork that the Dept of Education demands to back it up. School Inspectors spend at least as much time checking paperwork nowadays as actually observing the teacher in the classroom.
You keep saying that a 'one size fits all' approach to education doesn't work. That applies to teachers as well. They all have their own personal way of imparting knowledge and engaging with the children, and Inspectors should be allowed, and expert enough, to make judgements on that and not on whether forms and plans have been filled in according to guidelines.
That's not how teaching should work.

clairewithani · 06-12-2017 1:00pm

I happened to be a parents representative on a board of Management years ago when an inspection took place and was present for the disclosure of the findings. There were 4 teachers in the school and while the record keeping and assessment was considered to be good overall the teacher who received the most glowing praise for meticulous preparation, comprehensive assessment and organisation of resources could not teach. He had a communication problem and several families took children out of school while in his class. Note keeping and paperwork is not everything.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 06-12-2017 1:03pm

Exactly.

In fact a survey by the TUI last year showed that the vast majority of teachers feel that bureaucratic duties are regularly deflecting their time away from teaching. The Dept of Education have obviously realised this as they have now committed to reducing the red tape and form filling currently necessary for inspections.

So statistics regarding how well prepared teachers were for lessons etc. are not really giving an accurate picture.

Permabear · 06-12-2017 1:07pm

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c68zapdsm5i1ru · 06-12-2017 1:11pm

Yes, and you've been given a perfect example of how that approach doesn't work plus the Dept of Education has now concurred and are reviewing it. Suddenly imposing a load of unnecessary paperwork on teachers, and expecting them to be able to comply with it and devote the same amount of time and attention to actually teaching as they did before is unrealistic and detrimental to the quality of their teaching.

You should be glad that teachers care enough to fight the issue instead of just going along with it for an easy life, and not caring that the children in the classroom are suffering as a result.

But you seem absolutely determined to view teachers in a totally negative light, so there's not much point in arguing really.

eviltwin · 06-12-2017 1:29pm

With respect, you don't live here, you are not part of the system. You can't use anecdotes about family here to draw conclusions about the entire educational system. There are many of us, actually living here with kids in the system or who have left and we have had good experiences. I'm not a gung ho supporter of the Irish education system, aspects of it are long outdated and there are definitely some who shouldn't be doing the job but you get that in all jobs. I think you are doing teachers, and parents, a disservice.

Permabear · 06-12-2017 1:47pm

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Wanderer78 · 06-12-2017 1:51pm

i wonder, are the actions of the 'militant unions' anything to do with the fact we now live in societies whereby theres 'increasing worker insecurity'? just a thought!;)

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 06-12-2017 1:52pm

And as I have noted numerous times 'not adequately prepared' etc are often down to not having filled in the correct forms, in the correct ways and so on and have nothing to do with how the teacher has personally prepared for the lesson or is engaging with the students. I have also backed this up with the fact that the Dept themselves have taken on board the fact that the onerous paper work is detracting from teacher's time and ability to get on and teach.

I am not quibbling with the fact that there are some teachers who are not good at the job. I am quibbling with the statistics you use to try and tar the general teaching profession here, and explaining why they don't give a full picture of the scenario.

meeeeh · 06-12-2017 1:56pm

I absolutely agree that there are teachers who shouldn't teach. However most who decide to go into teaching must have some interest and they also get education that goes beyond technicalities of the subjects they teach. Wouldn't that imply it is even more reckless to encourage home schooling considering there will be even higher proportion of failings you contribute to teachers among general population and even less oversight over what parents teach and how children are treated in general.

Secondly you are very quick to point out your qualifications, how good is your pedagogical knowledge? Not everyone who knows the subjects can teach and majority of people don't even have the subject knowledge. How was your work as a teacher of your child assessed by school inspectors? Or should standards apply only to teachers in formal education?

Permabear · 06-12-2017 2:13pm

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draiochtanois · 06-12-2017 2:18pm

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Permabear · 06-12-2017 2:27pm

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Billy86 · 06-12-2017 2:27pm

Yeah, and demographically I'd imagine schools in Northern Ireland and the south are quite different these days to be honest. I mean above about 40 years of age the demographics would largely be very similar, yet overall ROI is only 82% white Irish while N. Ireland is about 97% white Irish/British. Where I work is very close to a number of primary and secondary schools in south Dublin and lots of kids are black, brown, Asian etc (and that's before the kids with Eastern European parents, who I'd not really be able to tell apart from those with Irish parents on sight).

tomwaterford · 06-12-2017 2:29pm

At least one of the schools reported on the news as having taken part had a majority of kids from immigrant families?

Who would yous prefer to have seem administer an test/survey into irish primary schools?

Permabear · 06-12-2017 2:30pm

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draiochtanois · 06-12-2017 2:31pm

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meeeeh · 06-12-2017 2:32pm

There are also parents who have skin in the game for different reasons. There are well known cases of abuse or control that was kept hidden because of home schooling. You are quick to question teacher's motivation and dedication yet unwilling to appy same standards to parents.

Btw there is so much more to kid's progress than stuff measured by tests.

Permabear · 06-12-2017 2:32pm

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ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 06-12-2017 2:33pm

It seems to have been a representative group covering the country and included many DEIS schools.

tomwaterford · 06-12-2017 2:35pm

It's unlikely rte are going to give a news report on a relatively minor issue from 148 schools?

Looks like the teachers aren't so lazy...

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