Saorview frequencies reshuffle (700 MHz clearence)

Digifriendly

All changes to NI Freeview frequencies here - http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/95033/700MHz_Clearance_Q3_2019_UTV_v2.pdf

The Cush

Digifriendly wrote: »

All changes to NI Freeview frequencies here - http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/95033/700MHz_Clearance_Q3_2019_UTV_v2.pdf

Yes, I posted it here last week together with additional digitalUK info for NI

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=111044508#post111044508

Digifriendly

The Cush wrote: »

Yes, I posted it here last week together with additional digitalUK info for NI

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=111044508#post111044508

Apologies. I somehow missed that.

Rick_

My mum was worried she'd have to wait ages to get sorted as she's not technically minded at all and I won't be back home for a few weeks to re-tune her TV! I can see only one MUX is actually changing from Divis, so she might be alright until I get back. Losing RTÉ though will be an issue, and as the channels are changing band and her current aerial for RTÉ is I believe a Group CD one and she is going to need a Group K. The Divis aerial is a Group W and is a big Televes DAT45 monster form back in the early 2000's when it was needed to actually pick up a signal for us. It could probably be changed to a smaller Group T aerial now that the signal has improved a lot and still do the same job. I assume that a Group K and Group T aerial can still be diplexed into the one cable, even though some of the frequencies for the Group T aerial (the COM7/8 MUX's) are higher than the rest and above the ones in Group K?

I don't even know of any aerial installers locally around Armagh I could contact to do the work needed, we did always use the same guy previously but believe he has retired now which is a shame as he didn't live far and usually was able to call out very quickly to get anything we needed done.

Iderown

PFMC84 wrote: »

My mum was worried she'd have to wait ages to get sorted as she's not technically minded at all and I won't be back home for a few weeks to re-tune her TV! I can see only one MUX is actually changing from Divis, so she might be alright until I get back. Losing RTÉ though will be an issue, and as the channels are changing band and her current aerial for RTÉ is I believe a Group CD one and she is going to need a Group K.

I don't even know of any aerial installers locally I could contact, we did always use the same guy previously but believe he has retired now which is a shame as he didn't live far and usually was able to call out very quickly to get anything we needed done.

PFMC84 - things may not be bad for her. The channel that is changing from Divis has the programmes which are not the most popular.


Clermont Carn will continue transmissions on Ch 52 and 56 for some months. The new channels are 42 and 45. Your existing aerial may be fine for receiving the new channels. I'm in the same situation and will check on Wednesday. My old bones do not fancy doing any roof scaling if I don't have to.

Rick_

There are a few channels/radio stations on COM6 she would regularly have on so I'll probably get moaned at if they stop working in a few days!

Our aerials were put up back when analogue was still going and I'm not sure if the two signals being diplexed into one may have blocked out the 40's (which is where BBC/UTV/C4 were at the time) and where the current Armagh relay MUX's are currently, though from memory when retuning previously the TV's in the house did pick up the local MUX's in the scan but prioritised the Divis ones, I'll have to double check that.

The Cush

PFMC84 wrote: »

My mum was worried she'd have to wait ages to get sorted as she's not technically minded at all and I won't be back home for a few weeks to re-tune her TV! I can see only one MUX is actually changing from Divis, so she might be alright until I get back. Losing RTÉ though will be an issue, and as the channels are changing band and her current aerial for RTÉ is I believe a Group CD one and she is going to need a Group K. The Divis aerial is a Group W and is a big Televes DAT45 monster form back in the early 2000's when it was needed to actually pick up a signal for us. It could probably be changed to a smaller Group T aerial now that the signal has improved a lot and still do the same job. I assume that a Group K and Group T aerial can still be diplexed into the one cable, even though some of the frequencies for the Group T aerial (the COM7/8 MUX's) are higher than the rest and above the ones in Group K?

No need to panic, as posted already the old frequencies wont switch off for 6 months, have a read through this - https://www.saorview.ie/en/changes

The Cush

PFMC84 wrote: »

There are a few channels/radio stations on COM6 she would regularly have on so I'll probably get moaned at if they stop working in a few days!

I guess the issue could be COM6, both Divis and Three Rock will share the same frequency. Depends how much co-channel interference there will be from Three Rock at your mother's location. You'll know in a few days.

The existing aerials should be OK for the moment, they are already overlapping the 4G mobile band and I assume without interference. 5G in the lower band probably won't be live for another 12 months.

Rick_

All Clermont channels are breaking up intermittently at the moment, so I'm not sure if that is to do with any mobile interference or if there is a problem with the aerial/distribution set up in the house. None of the Divis channels appear to be affected.

Iderown

11.27am. All channels from Clermont Carn are solid here (Bangor, Co Down).

joeysoap

the LG tv I have , which is receiving freeview, notifies me (pretty regularly) that I will have to revert to factory reset and do a full rescan on 4th,

The Samsung (Saorview) does not.

When I revert to factory settings in 4th, I will attempt to go with Saorview on it too.

Digifriendly

Anyone any idea around what time Channel frequency changes take place re Divis/Clermont Carn on Wednesday?

The Cush

Digifriendly wrote: »

Anyone any idea around what time Channel frequency changes take place re Divis/Clermont Carn on Wednesday?

No indication from Saorview but it probably doesn't matter as the existing frequencies remain on. No idea for Freeview, I haven't followed any of the other Freeview changes.

Mickey Mike

Why didn't 2rn keep their frequencies in the K (A and group in the first place! they wouldn't be in this mess. If they had the full run of the UHF band they be all over it.

Digifriendly

Saorview Channel names now have a full stop after them. Receiving from Clermont Carn.

The Cush

Digifriendly wrote: »

Saorview Channel names now have a full stop after them. Receiving from Clermont Carn.

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/95105/700MHz_Industry_Briefing_-_additional_notes_for_clearance_events_in_Northern_Ireland_Q3-2019.pdf

Saorview

Many viewers in Northern Ireland have separate aerials installed to facilitate reception of Saorview television services from the Republic of Ireland. For those using Freeview TVs and set-top boxes, these services will be listed in the 800 channel section of the EPG. The Republic will also begin its processes for 700MHz clearance on 4 September, launching a simulcast of both of its multiplexes on new frequencies. The Saorview multiplexes will operate on their old and new frequencies until Spring 2020.

During an automatic retune TV equipment will usually select one set of these multiplexes depending on manufacturer preference with regards to signal quality, power or the received order.

Saorview will place a ‘full-stop’ next to the channel names of RTÉ One and RTÉ2 on transmissions across the Republic of Ireland on its existing frequencies. This measure is intended to aid installers or retailers around the border areas who may be asked to retune customer TV sets that receive both Freeview and Saorview. The full stop should not be visible following a successful retune to the new frequencies.

Aerial installers should carefully consider how a dual aerial receiving system will operate when these changes take place in September. Special attention should be given where aerial group diplexers are currently used to combine signals from both Freeview and Saorview aerials. These may filter out the
wanted new frequencies in the future, so consideration should be given to alternative arrangements such as use of wideband diplexers, combiners and/or careful alignment of aerials.

For example, in parts of Derry/Londonderry it may be possible to receive transmissions from Saorview and Freeview transmitters using a single aerial.

The Cush

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Why didn't 2rn keep their frequencies in the K (A and group in the first place! they wouldn't be in this mess. If they had the full run of the UHF band they be all over it.

Unfortunately we share the share the same spectrum with the UK and to a much lesser extent with France. We can't pick and choose which channels we want, this is done via bilateral and multi-lateral coordination.

The most recent multi-lateral coordination agreement was signed off in April 2016 as part of the WEDDIP group and bilaterally with the UK in March 2017.

This is from the Dept of Communications

Irish planners have completed replanning to clear TV from the channels 49-60. They worked in conjunction with their UK colleagues on this task. On the whole the plan has 9 UHF channel groups, each with 3 channels. The Department expects that TV services will clear the channels 49-60 by April 2020, creating a second digital dividend. Associated with that will be much tighter reuse of frequency channels. The Department does not guarantee reception of TV services outside their core service area. Some households currently receiving UK TV signals from Northern Ireland or Wales will no longer be able to do so. This is because of transmissions from Irish TV transmitters in neighbouring areas.

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/communications/topics/spectrum/digital-dividend/Pages/DTT-Spectrum.aspx

Elvis Hammond

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Why didn't 2rn keep their frequencies in the K (A and group in the first place! they wouldn't be in this mess.

What 'mess', & what 'first place'? Didn't they mostly keep Digital Switchover Mk. I in the channel groups that were in use for analogue?

Or do you think they should have seen all this coming in the 1980s?

muffler

My Saorview channels went missing earlier and when I found them the RTEs are now showing as RT1 and RT2

joeysoap

Odd. I forgot that I also have a 2nd small Samsung in one of the bedrooms. (Flown the nest and I forgot he didn’t take it -yet)

Full stop is there, even after I re - tune so that’s not good. 68 tv channels though that’s not accurate, as some are not watchable, UTV for instance,

Full stop on the second Samsung too after retuning, says 106 tv channels, and that’s probably correct as a few are ‘duplicates’ . All perfect though.

kooga

Digifriendly wrote: »

Saorview Channel names now have a full stop after them. Receiving from Clermont Carn.

are the full stop channels the new frequencies following a rescan?

ignore question answered

joeysoap

Does aerial change C/D to B or K require a new aerial?

The Cush

joeysoap wrote: »

Does aerial change C/D to B or K require a new aerial?

Yes, but only to reduce the possibility of 4G and 5G interference. You may not require an aerial change if there are no mobile base stations nearby.

It is recommended if installing a new aerial or replacing an existing aerial to go for the in-group aerial recommended for your nearest transmitter.

kazoo106

Getting RTE's on CH35 in the middle of Dundalk - where is this from ?

Just checked - Kippure

Digifriendly

joeysoap wrote: »

Odd. I forgot that I also have a 2nd small Samsung in one of the bedrooms. (Flown the nest and I forgot he didn’t take it -yet)

Full stop is there, even after I re - tune so that’s not good. 68 tv channels though that’s not accurate, as some are not watchable, UTV for instance,

Full stop on the second Samsung too after retuning, says 106 tv channels, and that’s probably correct as a few are ‘duplicates’ . All perfect though.

You don't retune until Wednesday 4th September then full stop will disappear. See post 107 above. New frequencies only kick in on Wednesday.

TAFKAlawhec

Those receiving from Divis should note several changes...



* COM6 moving from E29 to E30 - should not affect many people in NI except for some in South Armagh and South Down, and maybe some in parts of South Fermanagh & Mid Tyrone. Probably more at risk in the Republic esp. where Three Rock could interfere.
* COM7 & COM8 move from E33 & E34 to temporary allocations of E51 & E60, before moving to E55 & E56 on 4th March 2020. Licences for these multiplexes are set to expire no later than 2022. This will make these two multiplexes out of band for the traditional aerial group.

* LTV multiplex moves from E30 to E36 with an ERP increase from 5kW to 10kW directional. This carries a few more commercial channels alongside NVTV.
* The NI Mux from neighbouring Black Mountain is moving from E39 to E33 with an ERP increase from 2kW to 3kW directional, which also brings it in to the traditional Divis aerial group.



If reception of Saorview services from Clermont Carin on E42 & E45 are lost, then you have six months (until 4th March 2020) to have your reception set up changed or refurbished to continue receiving the service after all frequencies above E48 are closed down. If your receiver has a DVB-T2 tuner, then it might be able to show RTÉ1, RTÉ2 & TG4 in SD via the NI Mux albeit with some programming blocked.

TAFKAlawhec

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Why didn't 2rn keep their frequencies in the K (A and group in the first place! they wouldn't be in this mess. If they had the full run of the UHF band they be all over it.

To follow up on what Elvis Hammond & The Cush have mentioned, back in 2011/12 there were only some tentative discussions among CEPT countries about possibly clearing more of the UHF broadcast band for additional mobile data capacity. At that point every European country continued to broadcast television services (or recognised such allocations in neighbouring countries) up to and including E60, with E61 to E69 now cleared as a "digital dividend" to what has become LTE Band 20.

To put it fairly simply, broadcast engineers, frequency planners and governmental agencies don't have stocks of crystal balls at hand.

The UHF broadcast spectrum from E21 to E48 is reserved for broadcasting until 2030 in ITU Region 1, which includes all of Europe. A Regional Radio Conference scheduled for 2023 is to decide wherever more or indeed all of the remaining UHF broadcast band shall be given over to other services on either a shared or primary basis (I.e. more mobile data bandwidth). Arguments will depend on various factors - many African & Middle Eastern countries are keen to allow for an expansion of bandwidth for mobile data services at the expense of broadcasting allocations, while in Europe it's likely to vary with different countries depending on the use of DTT as a primary or secondary viewing platform in said countries alongside noting likely trends in how viewers watch programming.

At the start of the decade, viewing via "linear" channels was still king. However since then a combination of increasingly faster broadband data speeds being made available to homes alongside larger or unlimited data caps, with a change in viewing habits broadly but especially with teens & young adults in general means that the primacy of linear channels is being slowly whittled down, and OTT platforms gaining promenance.

It'll then have to be asked where countries (particularly the UK, France, Spain & Italy whom have large viewer numbers for whom DTT is the prominent viewing platform) will either judge that the remaining UHF broadcasting spectrum is worth retaining beyond 2030, or that as of best spectrum use more should be allocated for mobile data, with affected DTT viewers being switched to alternative broadcasting arrangements.

Rick_

From the DigitalUK document, it looks like the NI Mux is going to be broadcast on some relays as well as Divis, so it would be coming from Armagh's transmitter on E48 at 24W unless they put the box in the wrong place and they meant Divis was going to broadcast it on E48 from Wednesday onwards?

The Newcastle relay also looks like it will host the NI Mux also on E48 at 200W, Whitehead on E48 at 2.4W and Strabane on E48 at 20W.

The Cush

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

It'll then have to be asked where countries (particularly the UK, France, Spain & Italy whom have large viewer numbers for whom DTT is the prominent viewing platform) will either judge that the remaining UHF broadcasting spectrum is worth retaining beyond 2030, or that as of best spectrum use more should be allocated for mobile data, with affected DTT viewers being switched to alternative broadcasting arrangements.

The most likely transition is to 5G linear broadcasting for efficient co-sharing of spectrum with the mobile network operators, although the MNOs are reluctant about sharing. WRC2023 is where these decisions will be made.

lgs 4

Just throwing it out there ? at any stage will anything happen with band III VHF (DAB & DAB +) Just curious.