Formula 1 2018: General Discussion Thread

the_pen_turner · 04-04-2018 12:27AM

H3llR4iser wrote: »

It's always been like this, even 'though some people want to believe it's not the case, and it will always be that the best car wins.

What was different in the past was that the car that destroyed the competition in qualifying, wasn't necessary up to pace in the race (e.g. Lotus in 1986/1987); Other times, one car would prove brilliantly suited to a specific track and then under perform on the next race and so on - now we don't get this anymore because of simulations and computer models. Nothing that can be done about it - I don't see how the use of computers could be banned for teams.

In the distant past, some team principals (Enzo Ferrari above all, but at some level also Frank Williams) used to make a point about hiring unknown drivers - to prove it was their car allowing them to win.

im not sure the diference between them was ever as lage as it is now, the ok driver is only there to make up the numbers. any influence he has is by being in the way

H3llR4iser · 04-04-2018 09:27AM

the_pen_turner wrote: »

im not sure the diference between them was ever as lage as it is now, the ok driver is only there to make up the numbers. any influence he has is by being in the way

The difference used to be huge - just 30 years ago , there'd be 3-4 seconds between pole position and 3rd-4th row, today 2.5 seconds cover the entire field. The problem is that today, cars and drivers are always at the optimum, calculated performance - if you're 0.2 secs a lap slower, that's where you stay.

H3llR4iser · 04-04-2018 09:27AM

the_pen_turner wrote: »

im not sure the diference between them was ever as lage as it is now, the ok driver is only there to make up the numbers. any influence he has is by being in the way

The difference used to be huge - just 30 years ago , there'd be 3-4 seconds between pole position and 3rd-4th row, today 2.5 seconds cover the entire field. The problem is that today, cars and drivers are always at the optimum, calculated performance - if you're 0.2 secs a lap slower, that's where you stay.

Harika · 04-04-2018 09:46AM

Someone crunched the numbers for overtaking:
http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

In the 80s cars were setup for high/low fuel or drivers were fuel saving at some point or the tyres were getting better or going away or coming back.

g1983d · 04-04-2018 11:51AM

Harika wrote: »

Someone crunched the numbers for overtaking:
http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

In the 80s cars were setup for high/low fuel or drivers were fuel saving at some point or the tyres were getting better or going away or coming back.

That's why I would like to see refuelling brought back, I know a lot of people are against it but I thought it brought a bit of uncertainty and excitement.
The only difference now is the simulator may calculate the optimal for a race and all teams would probably end up in the same fuel strategy with the same boring result.
Gone are the days of teams like Jordan putting a lad on hill down the road from the track and he ringing in when he sees a bit of rain on the way

ELM327 · 04-04-2018 11:59AM

the_pen_turner wrote: »

''''''''Also, F1 (and car racing in general) is actually about the teams and cars more than the drivers; The best car will win with an average driver at the wheel, the best driver won't get anywhere in an average car. '''''''''

this is exactly whats wrong with the the sport. no ability for the better driver in ok car to win.

+1, look at Alonso the last few years. Alonso and Seb are the two best drivers in the field today, in that order, yet hamilton and rosberg won the last 2 WDC.

g1983d wrote: »

That's why I would like to see refuelling brought back, I know a lot of people are against it but I thought it brought a bit of uncertainty and excitement.
The only difference now is the simulator may calculate the optimal for a race and all teams would probably end up in the same fuel strategy with the same boring result.
Gone are the days of teams like Jordan putting a lad on hill down the road from the track and he ringing in when he sees a bit of rain on the way

Agreed. Refueling needs to be brought back imo

H3llR4iser · 04-04-2018 01:01PM

Harika wrote: »

Someone crunched the numbers for overtaking:
http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

In the 80s cars were setup for high/low fuel or drivers were fuel saving at some point or the tyres were getting better or going away or coming back.

The "overtaking trends" chart is the most interesting - shows how, from the mid-90s to the mid 2000s, there was hardly any racing at all with the lowest number of overtakes in recent history. It's a revealing bit of data, considering most people in here started watching around that time and remember it as "great racing". And no, the argument for "fake DRS assisted overtakes" doesn't stand - back then, cars simply proceeded in a beeline without being able to overtake, or drivers simply didn't even want to risk it as they could wait for the pitstops. I unfortunately remember those races very well.

g1983d wrote: »

That's why I would like to see refuelling brought back, I know a lot of people are against it but I thought it brought a bit of uncertainty and excitement.
The only difference now is the simulator may calculate the optimal for a race and all teams would probably end up in the same fuel strategy with the same boring result.
Gone are the days of teams like Jordan putting a lad on hill down the road from the track and he ringing in when he sees a bit of rain on the way

Actually, the chart I mention above shows refueling didn't work back then, so you are most likely correct - it'd add an even more predictable aspect to the races, with current technology.

Harika · 04-04-2018 01:10PM

H3llR4iser wrote: »

The difference used to be huge - just 30 years ago , there'd be 3-4 seconds between pole position and 3rd-4th row, today 2.5 seconds cover the entire field. The problem is that today, cars and drivers are always at the optimum, calculated performance - if you're 0.2 secs a lap slower, that's where you stay.

I don't think this is the main factor. If you look at motoGP or TouringCar races the gaps are really close and still lots of overtaking.
The main issue is still that cars cannot follow other cars very close to overtake. Something Indycar tried to solve with a flap at the rear wing that created a big hole in the air what allowed drivers to overtake. It just had the side effect in the ovals that when someone came out of this spot he sprinted forward with a massive speed difference.

the_pen_turner · 04-04-2018 11:51PM

Harika wrote: »

I don't think this is the main factor. If you look at motoGP or TouringCar races the gaps are really close and still lots of overtaking.
The main issue is still that cars cannot follow other cars very close to overtake. Something Indycar tried to solve with a flap at the rear wing that created a big hole in the air what allowed drivers to overtake. It just had the side effect in the ovals that when someone came out of this spot he sprinted forward with a massive speed difference.

sounds great.

Mike Litoris · 05-04-2018 07:33AM

H3llR4iser wrote: »

The "overtaking trends" chart is the most interesting - shows how, from the mid-90s to the mid 2000s, there was hardly any racing at all with the lowest number of overtakes in recent history. It's a revealing bit of data, considering most people in here started watching around that time and remember it as "great racing". And no, the argument for "fake DRS assisted overtakes" doesn't stand

Does anybody really remember good racing from that period? It was horrendous. Was it the Jordan factor or maybe being a Ferrari/MS fan in the 2000's giving that perception.

I remember the same argument 20 years ago about the racing being much better in the 80's with the usual Rose Tinted Glasses replies being handed out. That data wasn't handily available back then unfortunately.

eviltimeban · 05-04-2018 10:34AM

Yeah the 90s, from 1998 onwards when they went with the grooved tyres, was low on racing action. But there were other factors like refuelling and tyre wars that helped up the competition.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 05-04-2018 11:04AM

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the_pen_turner · 05-04-2018 12:07PM

Mike Litoris wrote: »

Does anybody really remember good racing from that period? It was horrendous. Was it the Jordan factor or maybe being a Ferrari/MS fan in the 2000's giving that perception.

I remember the same argument 20 years ago about the racing being much better in the 80's with the usual Rose Tinted Glasses replies being handed out. That data wasn't handily available back then unfortunately.

you maybe right but all we can say with certanty is that there is almost no racing , overtaking or unpredictability right now.
the last race was a good example. hamilton had it in the bag from the start. they made a wee mistake and vettle used a technicality in the rules to ovetake them .
the last 15 laps were a pressetion. no overrtaking at all.

Robbo · 05-04-2018 12:26PM

There was plenty of commentary in the 1990s that overtaking was dead, races were processional and everything was better 20 years ago.

I'm sure in the 1980s you could have found the same thing.

skipper_G · 05-04-2018 01:20PM

Robbo wrote: »

There was plenty of commentary in the 1990s that overtaking was dead, races were processional and everything was better 20 years ago.

I'm sure in the 1980s you could have found the same thing.

F1 fans are never happy though, and more often than not they are moaning about something of little importance in the grand scheme of things all the while glossing over things like the massive inequity in revenue distribution & unsustainable business practices.

Wanderer78 · 05-04-2018 01:24PM

skipper_G wrote: »

Robbo wrote: »

There was plenty of commentary in the 1990s that overtaking was dead, races were processional and everything was better 20 years ago.

I'm sure in the 1980s you could have found the same thing.

F1 fans are never happy though, and more often than not they are moaning about something of little importance in the grand scheme of things all the while glossing over things like the massive inequity in revenue distribution & unsustainable business practices.

I can see f1 becoming a similar mess that has become sports such as football, i.e. big money fcuks sports up

muckwarrior · 05-04-2018 01:40PM

Apart from DRS (maybe even more so) the biggest success for overtaking in recent years was when Pirelli entered with their fast wearing tyres. But some fans moaned that racing was too unpredictable and "fake" while drivers moaned that they couldn't race flat out. Now we're back to normal tyres and no overtaking :rolleyes:

Jordan 199 · 05-04-2018 02:26PM

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You could say it was 'groovy'.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 05-04-2018 02:36PM

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skipper_G · 05-04-2018 03:12PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I can see f1 becoming a similar mess that has become sports such as football, i.e. big money fcuks sports up

As long as Liberty have the guts to make the necessary changes without pandering to the elite few (looking at all the teams with special money just because) then there is no reason we can't have a relatively open formula. There will always be a pecking order but the gaps would be a lot closer

Wanderer78 · 05-04-2018 03:16PM

skipper_G wrote: »

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I can see f1 becoming a similar mess that has become sports such as football, i.e. big money fcuks sports up

As long as Liberty have the guts to make the necessary changes without pandering to the elite few (looking at all the teams with special money just because) then there is no reason we can't have a relatively open formula. There will always be a pecking order but the gaps would be a lot closer

The introduction of such groups as liberty media doesn't feel me with hope, but to fair to them, the damage of the introduction of large money interest's to this sport has long since occurred before their entrance into the sport

eviltimeban · 05-04-2018 03:25PM

Jordan 199 wrote: »

You could say it was 'groovy'.

Yes but was there much overtaking? The move to grooved tyres increased the reliance on aero grip over mech grip.

Harika · 05-04-2018 03:31PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

The introduction of such groups as liberty media doesn't feel me with hope, but to fair to them, the damage of the introduction of large money interest's to this sport has long since occurred before their entrance into the sport

Depends really on their goal. If you look at the Champions League that is a cash cow, besides the fact that there are always the same teams in the end at the top. They might look at that, let the big teams get their cake and eat it, and in some years sell it with a profit.
On the other side, they opened up a streaming service for fans to bypass the subscription models to actually watch it.
They could repeat what Mosley did in 2010 and combine in with the 2015? offer. Open registrations with a guaranteed budget limit, an engine deal for Cosworth/AEG/Ilmor that promises cheap engines that can compete with the midfield. If the top teams cry for a hissy fit, stay calm as they won't leave as seen with the breakaway thread, or you are like Bernie and pay Ferrari a hefty bonus what ended FOTA.

Tippex · 05-04-2018 06:54PM

skipper_G wrote: »

F1 fans are never happy though, and more often than not they are moaning about something of little importance in the grand scheme of things all the while glossing over things like the massive inequity in revenue distribution & unsustainable business practices.

Thats true I will never be happy until Jordan resurface

donspeekinglesh · 05-04-2018 07:41PM

eviltimeban wrote: »

Yes but was there much overtaking? The move to grooved tyres increased the reliance on aero grip over mech grip.

No, I have it in my head that there was only one overtaking move in the Spanish GP in either 1998 or 1999 - Damon Hill overtook someone for 8th ( which was worth no points at the time).
This was considered shockingly bad at the time, but I'm sure there have been more races as bad since.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 05-04-2018 07:47PM

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Harika · 05-04-2018 07:47PM

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

No, I have it in my head that there was only one overtaking move in the Spanish GP in either 1998 or 1999 - Damon Hill overtook someone for 8th ( which was worth no points at the time).
This was considered shockingly bad at the time, but I'm sure there have been more races as bad since.

Eddie irvine asked after that race to have a car radio built in. Mosley was then very snarky.