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Are too many teachers women?

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    #92
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Knex. wrote: »
    Money and status would be contributing factors.

    People don't want to admit it, but on average, men and women have different goals and objectives in their career.

    I'm sure that a campaign of sorts could encourage more men into teaching, as there possibly is some who reject the notion either consciously or subconsciously because of how the job is viewed, but just like we're seeing in Engineering and science with the gender roles reversed, I don't think it'll be a massive difference.

    Can we help, sure. But I think we also have to be a little conscious across the board that we're never going to have a 50/50 ratio in all job titles, such is the composition of the genders. Again, on average I'm saying here.

    The gender quotas and so on are absolute horse****. Demanding that your actual makeup is a massively warped figure to your supply is insanity.
    This is it. Like I said, I've come across the attitudes that lead to men not entering the profession in big numbers. I disagree with them but they're definitely there. Women see ambition in men as attractive so men play up to that. If I say I want to be a teacher because I can quite happily live on the decent pay and would put a premium on the summer and Christmas holidays well that just isn't "ambitious".
    Myself (and most guys I know) don't really consider that with women. Is she happy with the job and the progression or none that it offers? Great, that's it.

    And obviously the disclaimer: I'm speaking in generalities here.


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    #93
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #94
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    mariaalice wrote:
    Allrigh then what do you think the reasons an 18 year old male in 6th year does not put primary school teaching as number one on their cao.


    For me it was because a male working with children is viewed with distrust by some as a potential paedophile.


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    #95
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    You would also have to answer the question as to why more women look for family friendly careers and why women often view their earning as secondary to their male partners.


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    #96
    brevity
    Registered Users Posts: 8,500 ✭✭✭brevity


    Knex. wrote: »
    Money and status would be contributing factors.

    People don't want to admit it, but on average, men and women have different goals and objectives in their career.

    I'm sure that a campaign of sorts could encourage more men into teaching, as there possibly is some who reject the notion either consciously or subconsciously because of how the job is viewed, but just like we're seeing in Engineering and science with the gender roles reversed, I don't think it'll be a massive difference.

    Can we help, sure. But I think we also have to be a little conscious across the board that we're never going to have a 50/50 ratio in all job titles, such is the composition of the genders. Again, on average I'm saying here.

    The gender quotas and so on are absolute horse****. Demanding that your actual makeup is a massively warped figure to your supply is insanity.

    I think being a teacher is a sort of calling, same as a nurse or carer. Either you have it in you or you don't.


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    #97
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    mariaalice wrote: »
    It all about the bubble you live in, in comparison to a lot of middle class professions its mediocre for pay but for someone who's top earning is likely to be 30/35k its viewed very well paid.

    It is also to do with where you live on a teacher or two teacher incomes your going to struggle to buy a house in D14 but in Sligo you would have a very good life style on the money.


    I think it goes a little beyond that. On average the pay is good for the hours worked.

    But again I the men tend to look less at the hours or work and more at the potential earnings at the end.

    Lets say a female teacher is doing 40 hours a week making 40K and I a male working in IT is working 50/60 hours a week and earning 60K..

    Arguably they earn the same for hours worked but statistically men tend to go for the higher paid vs time off, women tend to have a much better work life balance.


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    #98
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,194 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    How much does a primary teacher earn a year?


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    #99
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    I think it goes a little beyond that. On average the pay is good for the hours worked.

    But again I the men tend to look less at the hours or work and more at the potential earnings at the end.

    Lets say a female teacher is doing 40 hours a week making 40K and I a male working in IT is working 50/60 hours a week and earning 60K..

    Arguably they earn the same for hours worked but statistically men tend to go for the higher paid vs time off, women tend to have a much better work life balance.

    As the saying goes..sometimes a tree is just a tree.


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    #100
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    For me it was because a male working with children is viewed with distrust by some as a potential paedophile.


    Have to agree with this somewhat.
    I think an announcement for a man to become a primary school teacher can be met with a raised eyebrow.


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    #101
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    pickarooney wrote: »
    How much does a primary teacher earn a year?

    http://www.into.ie/pay/PayScales/

    So from just over 30k to 61k over 25 years.

    If your start at 25 by the time you are 50 you will be on 61k the upper end of the salary is good.


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    #102
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #103
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    For me it was because a male working with children is viewed with distrust by some as a potential paedophile.
    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    Have to agree with this somewhat.
    I think an announcement for a man to become a primary school teacher can be met with a raised eyebrow.

    Seriously? I've a lad doing the leaving this year, and, although teaching wasn't something he considered, I am pretty sure if he had, that wouldn't have crossed his mind. Do 17/18 year olds really consider such a thing?


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    #104
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    Have to agree with this somewhat.
    I think an announcement for a man to become a primary school teacher can be met with a raised eyebrow.

    Not if you are a rising GAA star.


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    #105
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,322 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    Geuze wrote: »
    It's strange that multiple posters on this thread say that the pay is poor, whereas elsewhere, in other forums, people complain that the pay is too high!!

    People complain that the pay is too high because they don’t know what they’re talking about.

    The qualifications it takes to become a teacher – particularly in STEM subjects – would earn you a vastly higher wage in the private sector.


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    #106
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I think men take more risks.
    Again this was talked about before to why men take more risks.

    People who take risks generally will dominate the top and bottom of the pay scales.
    Non-risk takers will dominate the middle of the bell curve.


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    #107
    Outkast_IRE
    Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    spurious wrote: »
    If they got full time jobs. Engineering in most schools would be a six or twelve hour gig at most.

    Engineer's degrees incorporates lots of physics & maths. Alot would be well capable of teaching those also .


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    #108
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    But viewing themselves as the primary care of their children is what contributes to woman viewing their role and income the way they do. That's why they choose teaching the family friendly hours.


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    #109
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,139 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    mariaalice wrote: »
    http://www.into.ie/pay/PayScales/

    So from just over 30k to 61k over 25 years.

    If your start at 25 by the time you are 50 you will be on 61k the upper end of the salary is good.

    Presuming you get a job. This is what a lot here are missing. There are WAY more teachers being churned out than there are jobs for. There are thousands of unemployed teachers or teachers on 'contracts' of under 14 hours. No wonder people leave the country or get fed up trying for hours. I would not encourage anyone I cared about to go into teaching - male or female.


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    #110
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    super_furry wrote: »
    People complain that the pay is too high because they don’t know what they’re talking about.

    The qualifications it takes to become a teacher – particularly in STEM subjects – would earn you a vastly higher wage in the private sector.
    Hence why people who stopped doing maths after getting an OL pass end up teaching maths classes. Once again the notion that all teachers deserve the same pay (unless they started after the union sold out new entrants) for each subject is an issue.
    spurious wrote: »
    Presuming you get a job. This is what a lot here are missing. There are WAY more teachers being churned out than there are jobs for. There are thousands of unemployed teachers or teachers on 'contracts' of under 14 hours. No wonder people leave the country or get fed up trying for hours. I would not encourage anyone I cared about to go into teaching - male or female.
    And it's a bloody disgrace, completely. Along with the nepotism.


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    #111
    Knex*
    Registered Users Posts: 22,477 ✭✭✭✭Knex*


    spurious wrote: »
    Presuming you get a job. This is what a lot here are missing. There are WAY more teachers being churned out than there are jobs for. There are thousands of unemployed teachers or teachers on 'contracts' of under 14 hours. No wonder people leave the country or get fed up trying for hours. I would not encourage anyone I cared about to go into teaching - male or female.

    Separate conversation, probably, but would smaller classrooms help? Or is that just so unfeasible from an infrastructure point of view?


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    #112
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #113
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #114
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    You do not need higher level Irish to become a secondary school teacher.


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    #115
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Gravelly wrote: »
    Seriously? I've a lad doing the leaving this year, and, although teaching wasn't something he considered, I am pretty sure if he had, that wouldn't have crossed his mind. Do 17/18 year olds really consider such a thing?

    I am sure it will cross his mind, he might not worry or think to hard on it nor should he, but it probably will cross his mind.

    Reason I say this, it crossed mine when I thought about Uni placement.

    Primary school teachers are dealing with very young kids, kids that cry, need hugs,have accidents that need an almost parenting approach especially in the first two years.

    There was a photo I think last year you might remember it made the news of a mother who took a photo of her husband and son naked sitting in a shower. The son was ill, diarrhea and vomiting. The father got into the shower to hold his son and comfort him while he was ill essentially so he could vomit and poo as he needed too.

    The amount of people that saw this as inappropriate or tried to somehow sexulise it was nuts I thought was scary....


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    #116
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    They won't make any effort to increase the numbers of men teaching for the same reason they won't try to increase the numbers of women in the pest control, mining, or abattoir industries. So-called gender balance is designed purely to help women to displace men in desirable jobs.


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    #117
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    I am sure it will cross his mind, he might not worry or think to hard on it nor should he, but it probably will cross his mind.

    Reason I say this, it crossed mine when I thought about Uni placement.

    Primary school teachers are dealing with very young kids, kids that cry, need hugs,have accidents that need an almost parenting approach especially in the first two years.

    There was a photo I think last year you might remember it made the news of a mother who took a photo of her husband and son naked sitting in a shower. The son was ill, diarrhea and vomiting. The father got into the shower to hold his son and comfort him while he was ill essentially so he could vomit and poo as he needed too.

    The amount of people that saw this as inappropriate or tried to somehow sexulise it was nuts I thought was scary....

    Interesting - I must ask him. I had assumed it wouldn't cross the mind of someone that age. That's a bit depressing.


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    #118
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,139 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Outkast_IRE wrote: »
    Engineer's degrees incorporates lots of physics & maths. Alot would be well capable of teaching those also .

    ...if the Teaching Council recognised those qualifications as allowing a person to teach Maths. They don't always.

    Really, it's like a Monty Python sketch sometimes with them.


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    #119
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #120
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Gravelly wrote: »
    Interesting - I must ask him. I had assumed it wouldn't cross the mind of someone that age. That's a bit depressing.

    I think most men try and avoid a situation that could be misconstrued.

    It is unfortunate but just something men are probably aware of more so than women.

    I remember myself at swimming lessons at school, female swimming instructor walking into the changing rooms making sure we all where getting changed. I remember the comment "I've seen it all before". She was an older women nothing sexual about, she was really just making sure we where actually drying ourselves before putting our uniforms back on.

    If your daughter came home and said Mr WhatsHisName was in the girls changing rooms today and said "I've seen it all before" would you think nothing of it?


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    #121
    c_man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭c_man


    We need

    - men only career events, where men can be told how great the job is and how badly they're needed. Loadsa free stuff and a nice few days all round.

    - schools/the government need to encourage third level male students into teaching. This can be done by giving them extra equipment (laptop etc.) for free, get some guilty MNC to sponsor it and have it plastered all over their diversity part of their corporate website.

    - the existing teaching profession really needs to evaluate what it is that they're doing to make the places such a hostile environment for men. It's quite obviously sexism run rampant using Guardian logic.

    - the interview process needs to account for the gender imbalance, so that men have a slight edge. This can be easily done. Name and shame the schools with the highest gender imbalance.

    - schools need to run men only interview prep courses.


    I've seen and experienced all of the above in the tech sector. What's sauce for the goose... right?


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