Are too many teachers women?

ShowMeTheCash

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Being a male around small children that are not your own is always going to be met with certain level of scrutiny and caution and albeit it is a highly sensitive positions dealing with young kids I am very aware that the general public do not look at men and women the same within this capacity. I did not consider primary school partly because of this. It was not the only reason but I bet every single male teacher you know has at least thought about it.

I do outreach work where I'm around small kids in schools and again it would never even enter my head to be concerned about it. Its worrying over nothing imo.

Did you ever hear of a male teachers life being ruined due to a false accusation? I haven't and you can be sure it would be all over the news if there was an accusation.

silverharp

Jake Orange Molecule wrote: »

I do outreach work where I'm around small kids in schools and again it would never even enter my head to be concerned about it. Its worrying over nothing imo.

Did you ever hear of a male teachers life being ruined due to a false accusation? I haven't and you can be sure it would be all over the news if there was an accusation.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/false-claims-have-made-teaching-a-lottery-for-men-fqk27zb2h

A geography teacher subjected to false allegations of rape by a 14-year-old pupil at a private girls’ school says that he can no longer see why “any man in his right mind” would become a teacher.

With one in five teachers being falsely accused of some form of misconduct by a pupil during their career, Kato Harris said it was like “buying a lottery ticket” for a man to join the profession.

Kh1993

brevity wrote: »

The question I would ask is why don't more men want to be teachers?

As a male teacher I can't understand why. College is great as there's women everywhere, high percentage of school management staff are men which helps too. Always good to get in to the sports coaching too for job prospects etc.

Only thing I find is other men really look down upon you or take the jokes too far (pa*do etc), didn't put me off but I'm sure it does for some. Other lads will look at it as weird that you're working with kids.

JMNolan

Jake Orange Molecule wrote: »

I do outreach work where I'm around small kids in schools and again it would never even enter my head to be concerned about it. Its worrying over nothing imo.

Did you ever hear of a male teachers life being ruined due to a false accusation? I haven't and you can be sure it would be all over the news if there was an accusation.

I googled the phrase "male teachers life being ruined due to a false accusation". Here is the very first result

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/life/98942078/Being-a-male-teacher-was-my-dream-until-I-was-falsely-accused

Here is one from the times UK

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/false-claims-have-made-teaching-a-lottery-for-men-fqk27zb2h

The falsely accused teacher "says that he can no longer see why “any man in his right mind” would become a teacher."

mahamageehad

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Seeing as there is a gender imbalance in those roles, do you not find it somewhat unusual that there is no constant media reporting on the need for gender balance in those sectors?

As someone pointed out earlier, there is also no campaign to get women into construction, a predominately male preserve or the general manual labour market where there is also a massive gender imbalance.

I was brought up with equality and treated every one according to how I found them rather than how their gender would pressure me to find them. I find myself very uneasy with gender quotas targeting one sex in one profession when there is no similar campaign for the opposite sex in another role?

Isn't/shouldn't that be the true role of equality, all equal all the time?

Well, I find it somewhat unusual, but I don't wouldn't demonise the industries that are actively campaigning for more balance either. Particularly with STEM subjects and careers, there has been a push by gender equality groups to increase the diversity in these industries. I don't think that that's a bad thing in and of itself necessarily. Perhaps more concerned men and women should band together to increase pressure for diversity in these female-dominated industries such as teaching? These STEM pressure groups have been incredibly successful in terms of coverage, I think there's lessons that could be learned from them.

I do find the manual labour market to be a bit of a duplicitous example though to be honest. There are more men in that market simply because they are physically more suited to the work. Also, how many men in those industries want diversity? One of my close friends qualified as a construction engineer about 10 years ago. On the rare occasions she was able to get a job, she said she found the working atmosphere both unwelcoming and uncomfortable. She ended up retraining in IT a few years ago. I know timing wasn't great in her case, but I've heard examples of female mechanics etc. not being welcomed with open arms.

For industries where physical capability isn't a barrier - such as teaching or engineering or nursing or social care, I would thoroughly welcome initiatives to increase diversity. It would likely require new pressure groups to form however. I have mixed feelings about gender quotas, the majority of them negative. I don't think anyone is really asking for quotas here though, just more focus on initiatives to increase male pickup of certain roles.

pickarooney

mariaalice wrote: »

http://www.into.ie/pay/PayScales/

So from just over 30k to 61k over 25 years.

If your start at 25 by the time you are 50 you will be on 61k the upper end of the salary is good.

Seems pretty good. I'm on about 37k, 20 years into an IT 'career' with much longer hours and fewer holidays. Different country but similar cost of living.

JMNolan

JMNolan wrote: »

I googled the phrase "male teachers life being ruined due to a false accusation". Here is the very first result

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/life/98942078/Being-a-male-teacher-was-my-dream-until-I-was-falsely-accused

Here is one from the times UK

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/false-claims-have-made-teaching-a-lottery-for-men-fqk27zb2h

The falsely accused teacher "says that he can no longer see why “any man in his right mind” would become a teacher."

Nothing in Ireland though and that's what we are discussing. We have a bit more cop on here.

ShowMeTheCash

Jake Orange Molecule wrote: »

I do outreach work where I'm around small kids in schools and again it would never even enter my head to be concerned about it. Its worrying over nothing imo.

Did you ever hear of a male teachers life being ruined due to a false accusation? I haven't and you can be sure it would be all over the news if there was an accusation.

Well I do not know to what involvement your programs go, I have done volunteer work at children hospitals as part of a group but it not the same.

Two other ops have already answered your question.
I know of a local prof that had his career ruined along with his mental health over an allegation.

It is not that I worry about it, I am not in that position, I just understand the dynamic and how easily something innocent could be misconstrued...

JMNolan

Jake Orange Molecule wrote: »

Nothing in Ireland though and that's what we are discussing. We have a bit more cop on here.

Another quick google. Here is Ireland

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/former-teacher-awarded-700000-after-he-was-wrongly-accused-of-sexually-abusing-pupil-28950459.html

Any other conditions? Needs to have happened in an odd month...? Specific county?

ShowMeTheCash

JMNolan wrote: »

Another quick google. Here is Ireland

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/former-teacher-awarded-700000-after-he-was-wrongly-accused-of-sexually-abusing-pupil-28950459.html

Any other conditions? Needs to have happened in an odd month...? Specific county?

This was actually a female teacher and a male pupil but


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/tui-warns-of-false-abuse-claims-1.1132711

Here is a more generic look at accusations to teachers.

The dynamic in Ireland is a littler different as there was genuine abuse cases at the hands of the church.

JMNolan

JMNolan wrote: »

Another quick google. Here is Ireland

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/former-teacher-awarded-700000-after-he-was-wrongly-accused-of-sexually-abusing-pupil-28950459.html

Any other conditions? Needs to have happened in an odd month...? Specific county?

No need for the cheek, its quite obvious that's it's ultra rare. Sure you could just as easily have your career ruined by a false accusation by a female colleague in an office job, or a patient if you work in a hospital or who knows what.

The point I'm making is that you can't live your live being worried about these things. Its the same as people saying they won't have a 1 on 1 meeting with women as they are afraid of being accused of something. I have 1 on 1 meetings in closed rooms with women regularly and I wouldn't give it a second thought. Its pure scare mongering trying to spread fear of normal everyday things.

freshpopcorn

Accusations of sexual assault can happen in an career. Either by colleges or customers/pupils/patients/etc. It might be slightly higher in some areas but I don't know the stats but I think saying you won't be a teacher because of what might happen is more of an excuse people makes. It might happen the on a very rare occasion.

Buford T. Justice XIX

mahamageehad wrote: »

Well, I find it somewhat unusual, but I don't wouldn't demonise the industries that are actively campaigning for more balance either. Particularly with STEM subjects and careers, there has been a push by gender equality groups to increase the diversity in these industries. I don't think that that's a bad thing in and of itself necessarily. Perhaps more concerned men and women should band together to increase pressure for diversity in these female-dominated industries such as teaching? These STEM pressure groups have been incredibly successful in terms of coverage, I think there's lessons that could be learned from them.

I do find the manual labour market to be a bit of a duplicitous example though to be honest. There are more men in that market simply because they are physically more suited to the work. Also, how many men in those industries want diversity? One of my close friends qualified as a construction engineer about 10 years ago. On the rare occasions she was able to get a job, she said she found the working atmosphere both unwelcoming and uncomfortable. She ended up retraining in IT a few years ago. I know timing wasn't great in her case, but I've heard examples of female mechanics etc. not being welcomed with open arms.

For industries where physical capability isn't a barrier - such as teaching or engineering or nursing or social care, I would thoroughly welcome initiatives to increase diversity. It would likely require new pressure groups to form however. I have mixed feelings about gender quotas, the majority of them negative. I don't think anyone is really asking for quotas here though, just more focus on initiatives to increase male pickup of certain roles.

It was more an example of equality campaigning on one genders behalf rather than a requirement of 50:50 split in all industries.

Saying that, though, one female mechanic I use occasionally is as good as anyone else on the floor for locating and fixing any problems I have and I would know of quite a few women in construction jobs who just do their job despite the 'atmosphere' as you termed it. And retained their jobs through the bust as they were good at it also.

I would imagine a similar 'unfamiliar' unwelcoming and uncomfortable atmosphere would be there in any job with a large gender imbalance as fiends in the health and education industry would attest to.

professore

brevity wrote: »

The question I would ask is why don't more men want to be teachers?

How dare you suggest such a thing? It's oppression by the matriarchy!!!

ShowMeTheCash

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Accusations of sexual assault can happen in an career. Either by colleges or customers/pupils/patients/etc. It might be slightly higher in some areas but I don't know the stats but I think saying you won't be a teacher because of what might happen is more of an excuse people makes. It might happen the on a very rare occasion.

I think it goes beyond this.

I am not saying it is right but whether people want to address it or not when a grown man is in a position where he is working with small children, ears tend to prick up! Maybe a history of abusive priest have made us that way, I don't know.....

Trying to pretend it is not a concern people have when choosing a career and about any associated sigma is I think just ignoring it.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

brevity wrote: »

The question I would ask is why don't more men want to be teachers?

Nonsense, just set a quota. Disregard everything else. Once you hit that quota, everything is fine.

professore

Speedwell wrote: »

That's actually my point. When a female teacher does this, it's news. When a male teacher does it, it's business as usual. Despite this, male teachers still vastly outnumber female teachers in the search results.

I'd say in a lot of cases a female teacher is never reported.

mahamageehad

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

It was more an example of equality campaigning on one genders behalf rather than a requirement of 50:50 split in all industries.

Saying that, though, one female mechanic I use occasionally is as good as anyone else on the floor for locating and fixing any problems I have and I would know of quite a few women in construction jobs who just do their job despite the 'atmosphere' as you termed it. And retained their jobs through the bust as they were good at it also.

I would imagine a similar 'unfamiliar' unwelcoming and uncomfortable atmosphere would be there in any job with a large gender imbalance as fiends in the health and education industry would attest to.

I understand your point, but most of the STEM pushes initially came from feminist backed groups with a passion for that area. I wouldn't expect them to start advocating or campaigning for diversity for another gender in different industries though. One can't be all things to all people! Yes, there is certainly a gap for some of these groups to grow, and I would encourage groups like that, but I don't think the pressure should fall on existing groups to fulfil that need.

Regarding the atmosphere comment, yes there are a small number of excellent women in some male-dominated industries and vice versa. And there are plenty of workplaces that have a great atmosphere. However, often when you're in the minority like that you need to be excellent, mediocre won't cut it. My da was a factory foreman for years, the best welder he ever had working for him was a woman. She got a lot of stick, but she stuck it out. My point wasn't that this is something specific to women, it's that once an industry is quite imbalanced, introducing diversity can be trickier and you often need a thick skin. Most people are not excellent at their jobs, they're average. And, if people see if you a token "diversity" hire, regardless of your gender or industry, average is often not seen as good enough. That can be off-putting for new entrants.

professore

Anyone watching Riverdale on Netflix? Very popular with teenagers apparently, at least my teenager and her friends.

The lead teen boy has an "affair" with the female music teacher in her 30s. Not much of a deal is made about it - in fact the teacher is portrayed as sexy. All the girls and the guys cover up for her. Imagine it the other way round?

In the same show, some of the boys football team have a book that keeps track of the girls in the high school they "scored" with - consensually - in a ratings system. They are kicked out of the school and also any chance they had to go to college is gone. One was sexual abuse, and one was immature dick behaviour. The same series shows plenty of dick behaviour as bad or worse than this by the girls, but they don't get kicked out of going to college for it, or even any repercussions at all.

Also look at the recent Ming Flanagan incident. Fine Gael sent an assistant to an EU meeting for abuse survivors. Ming said "You don’t send a puppy to win the greyhound derby". Cue faux media outrage about the assistant being "extremely upset". Fine Gael or the media didn't seem to care about sexual abuse survivors being upset that no MEPs bothered to even show up to meet them. They preferred to make a story about someone's fake hurt feelings.

Become a male teacher in this world? No thanks.

The thing is, it isn't students suffering genuine abuse that are going to make up false allegations. It's the narcissistic types - male and female - that go on to become shock journalists that will do this for attention and social kudos and tweet about how "brave" they were, pissed off that they got an F on a maths test. And everyone will believe them. No one will believe a guy if a female teacher tries it on - or if they do will ask him what he is complaining about.

freshpopcorn

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I think it goes beyond this.

I am not saying it is right but whether people want to address it or not when a grown man is in a position where he is working with small children, ears tend to prick up! Maybe a history of abusive priest have made us that way, I don't know.....

Trying to pretend it is not a concern people have when choosing a career and about any associated sigma is I think just ignoring it.

I'm not saying it's a not concern but I never saw it stopping anybody who wanted to be a teacher from becoming one. I know a few people who gave the teaching thing ago or wanted to be teachers and didn't become one and the fear of being accused of something was always way down on the list for them not doing it.

One eyed Jack

Wrote this before in another thread, sums up my opinion on why I for one was certainly always interested in teaching and mentoring children and young people, but only ever in an informal capacity, because of the mind-numbing level of bureaucracy involved -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I dunno about that PB, certainly not from my experience at least. While the majority of Irish primary school teachers are women, there's plenty of them are trying to encourage men into the profession because they aren't one bit happy with the status quo.

Having been on the interviewing panel for various teaching positions, I've witnessed some examples of young men whom I wouldn't recommend, but the school principal and the independent adjudicator (both women, the adjudicator is often a retired principal) would nearly fall over themselves to hire him on the basis that he was a man. Any other criteria were secondary concerns.

For years I've had people suggest I should study to become a teacher, and I gave serious consideration to it at one point when the recession hit and the Hibernia was like doing the ECDL - people who were wholly unsuited to teaching saw it as an easy route into a stable career. I wouldn't be suited to it myself for the mind-numbing amount of bureaucracy involved for what has to be said offers IMO very little by way of remuneration - while I absolutely love working with children and I'm passionate about education, I'd sooner do it in an informal, voluntary capacity and do it for free than have to endure what I saw my mother and most of her relatives on her side of the family go through (most of them are a mixture of primary and secondary teachers and lecturers).

It's the same in social care here in Ireland - again a career dominated by women, and there were absolutely some feathers would ruffle when they encountered a man working in social care (some got over it, some didn't), but again it's a career where there are more men in management positions than there are on the ground. I'll still meet women who are crying out for more men to enter social care, but the money just isn't worth it IMO. Again it's something I do voluntarily rather than get bogged down in the bureaucracy for little reward.

One of the reasons I detest the whole "You don't see women in waste management" arguments, apart from the fact the person who brings it up is being entirely disingenuous, is because I wonder - "Well who the hell would want to aspire to wade through other peoples shìt for a living? That's neither a career for young women or young men, for a number of reasons!".

If people settle for crappy jobs that offer little in the way of career prospects, advancement or achievement, that is their choice, but we shouldn't be using that as a barometer for the kinds of careers that young people should be encouraged to aspire to just "to even up the score" so to speak.

That should read 'independent assessor' btw, not independent adjudicator.

ShowMeTheCash

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm not saying it's a not concern but I never saw it stopping anybody who wanted to be a teacher from becoming one. I know a few people who gave the teaching thing ago or wanted to be teachers and didn't become one and the fear of being accused of something was always way down on the list for them not doing it.

I think a lot of men just don't consider it and it does play into a reason why a lot of men do not consider teaching.

You are talking about men who want to be teachers, I am looking at why the majority don't want to be teachers.

ShowMeTheCash

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I am not saying it is right but whether people want to address it or not when a grown man is in a position where he is working with small children, ears tend to prick up! Maybe a history of abusive priest have made us that way, I don't know.....

Trying to pretend it is not a concern people have when choosing a career and about any associated sigma is I think just ignoring it.

Men working with small children is an everyday thing, I've never heard of "ears pricking up" except from a very very odd person on this site on this and maybe one or two other threads in the past. I think its a total non-issue for the vast majority and doesn't even enter their heads.

Electric Sheep

kylith wrote: »

Nonsense. Historically many men went into teaching careers. We need to look at why this has changed.

There are more alternative careers in Ireland these days. Most men don't care about childcare in the school holidays, wrap around child care, etc. Most women with children do. So the men take higher paying jobs with longer hours and the women make the trade off for the lower child care costs.

ShowMeTheCash

Jake Orange Molecule wrote: »

Men working with small children is an everyday thing, I've never heard of "ears pricking up" except from a very very odd person on this site on this and maybe one or two other threads in the past. I think its a total non-issue for the vast majority and doesn't even enter their heads.

Men working with children is an everyday thing? Really?
When is it an every day thing?

And in what capacity?

tomwaterford

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Men working with children is an everyday thing? Really?
When is it an every day thing?

And in what capacity?

Teaching?

Men are out there coaching swimming, soccer, rugby, and running scout dens in every town and every village every night of the week. Lots of men work with kids, the only stigma involved is in peoples imaginations.

mzungu

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The author of that study suggested holding fire on making any wholesale changes:

The research, based on the US-wide National Education Longitudinal Survey, found that a teacher's gender had "large effects on student test performance".

The report adds: "Simply put, girls have better educational opportunities when taught by women and boys are better off when taught by men."

When a woman was in charge of a class, boys were "more likely to be seen as disruptive".

Meanwhile, when taught by a man, girls were "more likely to report that they did not look forward to a subject".

Professor Dee said educationalists should "hesitate" before advocating more single-sex classes, which could have other "drawbacks".

But teachers could learn more about the "different learning styles" of boys and girls and receive more training "aimed at combating gender biases" in their own behaviour.

Prof Dee added: "Perhaps the best policy solution is to keep an open mind about a variety of strategies that neither unequivocally endorse single-sex education nor rule it out of order together."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/5294854.stm

Permabear wrote:

Remember, we're talking about a situation where a pupil does not encounter a single teacher of his own gender across his full 8 years of primary education. So there's a longitudinal dimension to this too that I'm not sure has been studied.

A review of international research suggested that single sex education had negligible impact on achievement, the most important factors were "ability and social background of the pupils."

I do think teachers should be wary of differences in learning, but I am not sold on the idea that having all female teachers will negatively impact boys.

ShowMeTheCash

tomwaterford wrote: »

Teaching?

Whole thread is about why is there a disparity of women to men in teaching.

National school are almost completely dominated by females.
Has anyone ever had male teacher in national school in the first 3 or 4 years?

I do not think currently my kids national school has any male teachers whatsoever.

Going back to the early 80s I did not have a male teacher until 4th class so I was 10 I think....

ShowMeTheCash

Candie wrote: »

Men are out there coaching swimming, soccer, rugby, and running scout dens in every town and every village every night of the week. Lots of men work with kids, the only stigma involved is in peoples imaginations.

Maybe and again I am not saying it is right I am just saying there are scenarios where I think people would think twice, but let's look at this and try and be honest.

Football camp run by men in my local town every summer.
For boys and girls. - Do not think anyone would have an issue with this. Kids are not required to get showered of changed is it outside parents usually hang around and watch....

Tag Rugby and GAA - Same thing

Swimming lessons for young kids - They call it the little swimmers where I am from. They have male instructors but never male instructors without female instructors, I think the main reason for this there is an element where the kids need to get changed.

If two guys where running a swimming class for young girls do you think everyone would look at this exactly the same as if it was two women running a swimming class for young girls?