Are too many teachers women?

Permabear wrote: »

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I think men take more risks.
Again this was talked about before to why men take more risks.

People who take risks generally will dominate the top and bottom of the pay scales.
Non-risk takers will dominate the middle of the bell curve.

Permabear wrote: »

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They won't make any effort to increase the numbers of men teaching for the same reason they won't try to increase the numbers of women in the pest control, mining, or abattoir industries. So-called gender balance is designed purely to help women to displace men in desirable jobs.

Gravelly wrote: »

Interesting - I must ask him. I had assumed it wouldn't cross the mind of someone that age. That's a bit depressing.

I think most men try and avoid a situation that could be misconstrued.

It is unfortunate but just something men are probably aware of more so than women.

I remember myself at swimming lessons at school, female swimming instructor walking into the changing rooms making sure we all where getting changed. I remember the comment "I've seen it all before". She was an older women nothing sexual about, she was really just making sure we where actually drying ourselves before putting our uniforms back on.

If your daughter came home and said Mr WhatsHisName was in the girls changing rooms today and said "I've seen it all before" would you think nothing of it?

Gravelly wrote: »

Seriously? I've a lad doing the leaving this year, and, although teaching wasn't something he considered, I am pretty sure if he had, that wouldn't have crossed his mind. Do 17/18 year olds really consider such a thing?

I did but it was 20 years ago when there was one abuse scandal after the next constantly in the media. I think it put a lot of people off. All of a sudden any man who worked or worse volunteered to work with kids was viewed by some with suspicion or even just jokes but they too would make it less attractive.
Perhaps its not in their minds anymore but the massive fall off of male teachers has also made the profession less likely to be taken up. I still think its an issue, I would imagine quite a few would still raise their eye at a man working in a creche etc.

Permabear wrote: »

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There is a benefit and they should. It is not seen as a desirable job so they won't. They won't even think of the students in this case. I won't say they shouldn't or justify it. It is the reason however even if it is very flawed.

I also think they need to sweeten the deal to succeed imo but they won't try. Most notably in terms of respect.

I know a few lads who wanted to be primary school teachers and some of them did work experience and others went to college and left after either qualifying or after doing teaching practices. I'm from a rural area.
The biggest reason why they left or changed there mind about the career was because they realised that they couldn't cope with a room full of screamig children all day.
The second was the work load from paper work/etc but awkward parents were a big put off them.

Gravelly wrote: »

Hmmmm. I don't want to be one of those people that knock teachers at every turn, but I'm not sure this is really the case. I've one offspring still in secondary school, and most of the correction is done in class, and a lot of the teaching via homework. How much planning and scheduling do lessons take? The curriculum is set and they follow it. I'm involved in a couple of sports clubs, and nearly every committee in sports clubs, charities etc. is dominated by teachers, because they are the only full-time workers with enough free time to do it. The preponderance of teachers in politics, at both local and national level would also indicate that they are not as busy as you indicate. Again, I'm not knocking teachers, and it's a job I certainly wouldn't do, but I think it's untrue that their hours are as long as they'd have you believe. It's a bit like all the civil servants that pretend that they are overworked and that there's any danger of them being fired for incompetence. It makes it difficult to take what they say seriously.

Possibly thats the difference between a good and bad teacher.

Anyone can walk into a class room and tell everyone to turn to page 54 and just read it out to them and follow the work.
A teacher needs to take this information in the book and actually teach it. Teaching it requires planning and recognizing the best way to get the class to learn this information which is more than just telling the students to read the book.

Also if your teacher is spending the time marking homework in class they are not doing much teaching are they?

Permabear wrote: »

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Why?

I think that the difference between primary and secondary teachers needs to be more clearly spelled out in this thread to be honest, as I think the differences vary depending on that.

I went to a convent school for primary, and all the teachers were female. For the Christian brothers school, their ratio was about 70-30 men to women, although I believe that's come down over the years. No lad from my extended social circle went on to train to be a primary teacher, while a fair few girls did. I also went to a convent secondary and I'd say 40% of the teachers were men - mostly in P.E., Maths and Science. At a guess I'd say I know 5 girls for every 3 boys that trained to be a secondary teacher, so my guess is that at secondary level it's more diverse.

I'd agree with PB that Irish may be a factor at primary level. More girls take honours Irish, so boys are immediately at a disadvantage here. I also think there's an element of gender roles at play - for most 17 and 18 year old lads that I know, the idea of being in charge of 30 4 years old is horrifying - they just have no interest. Girls are, or are at least assumed to be, more "maternal". Primary teaching (and early childhood or creche) are seen as "women's" jobs and lots of young lads are put off by that - and that's partially because many of them only had female teachers so it's a vicious circle. I'd also wonder if the religious schools, especially the nuns, had a historical preference to only hire their own gender? At primary school level, I'd be genuinely surprised if the potential for allegations of abuse puts lads off tbh.

At secondary school level, I think the worry of accusations is a bit more likely and possibly a factor. Money is also a big thing here though too - I'm not saying being a teacher is badly paid, but if you have a degree in Maths and Physics you'd almost certainly be limiting your paycheck by going into teaching. Actually, that goes for both men and women, but men are more likely to have that specific combination. Especially, as mentioned earlier in this thread, these subjects may not even have full time hours available! The lack of available jobs may also be a factor? Especially when other industries are screaming out for these kinds of graduates (some engineering disciplines, cybersecurity etc.) For both primary and secondary it's also largely thankless work, perhaps this is also a factor?

I wouldn't be against any initiatives to bring in more male primary teachers. I think fixing that will help fix the imbalance at secondary level. Specific recruitment drives as mentioned earlier would be a great idea. However, that said, we're currently massively overstocked with teachers so unless some kind of gender quota is being implemented, I think we'll be seeing this inequality continue for a long time. I think that these same reasons are applicable across many other industries too - the OH is a social care worker and as a man he can almost walk into a job anywhere as there are so few in the field. Nursing would be another example.

Jake Orange Molecule wrote: »

There are a lot of good reasons being given for men not wanting to be teachers but I refuse to entertain the notion that being in fear of accusations is one of the reasons. I've never heard it even mentioned by anyone before and I know quite a few male teachers.

Well I suggest you ask males who are not teachers and why they did not consider teaching, asking your male friends who are teacher shows a big of a flaw in your argument.

mariaalice wrote: »

http://www.into.ie/pay/PayScales/

So from just over 30k to 61k over 25 years.

If your start at 25 by the time you are 50 you will be on 61k the upper end of the salary is good.

You are forgetting it being 61k after 25 years inflation.

Jake Orange Molecule wrote: »

There are a lot of good reasons being given for men not wanting to be teachers but I refuse to entertain the notion that being in fear of accusations is one of the reasons. I've never heard it even mentioned by anyone before and I know quite a few male teachers.

The odd person says this in my experience but both male and female teachers are always very careful now.
The biggest reason I've heard is they can't put up with screaming children.

freshpopcorn wrote: »

The odd person says this in my experience but both male and female teachers are always very careful now.
The biggest reason I've heard is they can't put up with screaming children.

Exactly this, since the dawn of time men were hunter gatherers and even back to my dads generation born in 40's there was very little involvement in rearing children.

I love my two kids more than anything but sometimes I really struggle to keep my voice down when both of them are kicking off at the same time.

I think it might be as simple as women are more predisposed to nurturing than men and this would explain the numbers in nursing, teaching, creches, childminders and so on.