Discovery 1x06 – "Lethe" [** SPOILERS **]

spookwoman

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK, I'll give this another try...

First, on the ears... the prosthetic is definitely sharper - more pointed if you will - and just doesn't look right IMO .. like everything else in this series and to varying degrees, it's been tweaked for the sake of it and that in fact is part of the underlying problem.

The Vulcan ears have changes through the times. Episode 44 of TOS Sareks ears are practically the same

The_Valeyard

A really strong episode. Good auld Star Trek. Excluding the ending with Lorca, but a good solid well rounded episode.

Slydice

Sarek in some of the more colourful scenes reminded me a little bit of TOS romulans

Goodshape

Very good episode.

c_man

Well who would have guessed that the alliance talks were a ruse...

Lorca knew the Admiral was going to get captured. Or at least he had a feeling it was going to be an ambush - it's why he suggested she should go instead of anyone else. He knew she'd get captured, possibly dead, and nobody will be able to take his ship away (she mentioned that when she gets back is when she wants it to happen - giving the assumption that she hadn't processed anything yet).

I took the ending scence as him looking at his reflection, not the outside, and looking at what he had become; someone who not only possibly sent his "old flame" to be captured, but also delighted in it.

brainfreeze

Spear wrote: »

Arrogant and self interested is one thing, but telling a proud father that his children are "experiments" to his face, or the later act of terrorism, does seem a step beyond that.

But this is already established, no? He outright states to Spock that he married his mother because it was logical, as he is the Vulcan ambassador to earth. This is how he's always portrayed his family, and its a part of the conflict he has with spock.

In the 2009 universe split, he admits "You once asked me why I married your mother. I married her because I loved her." to show that his previous statements are horse**** because he's stubborn. But nobody else would know that, all other Vulcans, Including Spock himself apart from this alternate timeline, would assume his entire family is a Sarek experiement due to being ambassador.

And we've had Vulcan terrorists in Trek. The Syrrannites, who follow Surak, bombed Earths Embassy on Vulcan. Everything you have mentioned has already been established.

Johnny Storm

Pretty sure that the shot from the rear of Michael running is a slimmer, more athletic body double

Greyjoy

Spear wrote: »

Not the episode I was expecting at all, given their suggestion of a mirror universe one previously.

It seems a bit more traditionally episodic compared to the rest so far as well.

The depiction of Vulcans is a lot less flattering than anything else I can recall, with them being openly racist and cruel.

Whereas it's almost the opposite with Lorca.

It's like the episode wanted to just character development, and neglected story development.

i got the same feeling from it as well. The character stuff was interesting to a degree even if they did portray Sarek as a terrible parent. The rescue storyline felt pointless to me - we know since this is a prequel that Sarek will survive so there was nothing at stake.

Greyjoy

Greyjoy wrote: »

i got the same feeling from it as well. The character stuff was interesting to a degree even if they did portray Sarek as a terrible parent. The rescue storyline felt pointless to me - we know since this is a prequel that Sarek will survive so there was nothing at stake.

That's always the issues with prequels, TBH. There's a scene in the Hobbit where you weren't sure that Legolas would survive but wait, he's in the Lord of the Rings, so of course he does.

hal9550

brainfreeze wrote: »

And we've had Vulcan terrorists in Trek. The Syrrannites, who follow Surak, bombed Earths Embassy on Vulcan. Everything you have mentioned has already been established.

Actually the Syrrannites did not bomb earths embassy.. If you remember it was the Vulcan High Command who did, and then planted evidence to use the incident as a reason to attempt to wipe out all Syrrannites.. At the end it was also reveiled that the romulans were involved having apparently infiltrated Vulcan Society.. According to Memory Alpha, had Enterprise been renewed it would have revealed that T'Pols Father was a romulan operative.. Again highlighting that the Romulans are attempting to co-opt their society

Like i said in a previous post i strongly believe the Romulans will show up later in the series.. possibly this season.. easy to believe they may already be active behind the scenes, undermining Federation interests

fxotoole

hal9550 wrote: »

Maybe the romulan influence highlighted in Enterprise has left some residual 'xenophobia' within their society?

or even more excitingly

Maybe the romulans are behind some of the events in Discovery - the presence of Klingon cloaking devices.. it could be the first romulan attempt at gaining vengeance for their defeat in the Earth Romulan war? Kinda a divide and conquer approach. Hypothesis.. for a moment imagine they are involved.. We could assume they dont have the same amount of resources as either starfleet OR the Klingon empire.. But if those states went to war and depleted each others forces, it would work in the romulans favor, regardless of who emerged victorious.. Isnt it possible that the romulans are in league.. we do know that there was an alliance at one stage.. Perhaps backing Kol or Tkuvma is the precursor to those events

Don't think they'll go down this path. I think I read that the Romulons won't feature in ST Discovery.

What was with the camera lingering on Lorca's bum in the final shot? Is it a "now that Admiral whatsherface has been kidnapped, Lorca not only sleeps with a phaser set to kill, but he keeps a phaser set to kill in his back pocket all the time" kind of moment or something??

Edit: Anyone else think that the start of the title music sounds remarkably similar to the music being used in Star Wars trailers? (this one specifically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRGKoButBMs)

PhiloCypher

Evade wrote: »

There's also Lorca being able to memorise someone's service file but not managing to remember something pretty personal between himself and the admiral. Almost as if that event wasn't written down anywhere for him to read about.

I'll be honest I'd prefer and would find it more interesting if he's just a Commadore Decker like captain dealing with PTSD over what happened on his last ship then him just being a mirror doppleganger, but what you say does make a certain amount of sense .

If that's where it's going it would have been far more effective if we'd ever been given a baseline of what he was like before the Buran. The Stamets situation would be a better candidate for that reveal because we have been privy to his personality change ,whethers it's the Tardigrade DNA , he's high on Spores, or a mirror doppelganger, somethings off with him and the writers are probably going to enjoy us second guessing his motives until it's all resolved.

fxotoole

Evade wrote: »

There's also Lorca being able to memorise someone's service file but not managing to remember something pretty personal between himself and the admiral. Almost as if that event wasn't written down anywhere for him to read about.

What was this? Must have missed that line of dialogue... Do tell.

fxotoole

Zillah wrote: »

The kidnap was so painfully obvious.

^
This x1000000

I feel like the capture was supposed to be obvious - at least to us.

Goodshape

Deleted User wrote: »

I feel like the capture was supposed to be obvious - at least to us.

Absolutely. He was so quick to suggest the admiral make the trip, for a long moment I wondered was he going to personally sabotage the transport shuttle.

Lorca looking out at this reflection in the final scene was literally the character reflecting on what he has become. And carrying a phaser to show us how increasingly paranoid he is.

I guess a mirror counterpart is a possibility – and if Burnham is someone he knows from the other universe, that might explain his trust etc in her – but at the moment I feel that'd be the less interesting explanation. Almost a cop-out really.

Not convinced Stamets has flipped either. I think that would have been more obvious in last week's final scene. The Stamets in the mirror had more of an unsettling 'other' vibe to him, I thought.

But he does seem to be getting a bit of a kick out of those magic mushrooms! Looking forward to seeing where they go with this.

spookwoman

fxotoole wrote: »

What was this? Must have missed that line of dialogue... Do tell.

fxotoole wrote: »

What was this? Must have missed that line of dialogue... Do tell.

admiral - I still think about the bottle
we killed that night. We went to see
the Perseids meteor shower.
You don't remember?

Lorca - No, I was just... thinking how long ago it seems

Admiral - That's what tonight was, right?
Trying to get me
to back off.

Lorca - No.

Admiral - 'Cause it sure wasn't
what it was like before.

then later
Admiral - I hate that I can't tell
if this is really you.

I don't know if Lorca is just a nut or is from another universe. I's like to know who the 85 kills belong to

TBH Lorca was just tortured and is still overcoming what happened to his last ship.

And something I actually love is how this stuff is carrying on into other episodes. I can't remember, but I seem to remember that when Picard was captured and tortured, there was no real mention of it in later episodes.

fxotoole

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH Lorca was just tortured and is still overcoming what happened to his last ship.

And something I actually love is how this stuff is carrying on into other episodes. I can't remember, but I seem to remember that when Picard was captured and tortured, there was no real mention of it in later episodes.

They played on Picard's PTSD after being Locutus a fair bit. It was referenced in the episode immediately after "The Best of Both Worlds part 2", and it was also delved into in Star Trek: First Contact.

fxotoole

fxotoole wrote: »

They played on Picard's PTSD after being Locutus a fair bit. It was referenced in the episode immediately after "The Best of Both Worlds part 2", and it was also delved into in Star Trek: First Contact.

But there was a few years between the episode and First Contact, wasn't there? Plus Picard seemed to go through hell at the hand's of the Cardassians for a prolonged period of time, and then... nothing.

Josey Wales

spookwoman wrote: »

I don't know if Lorca is just a nut or is from another universe. I's like to know who the 85 kills belong to

85 kills?

spookwoman

Josey Wales wrote: »

85 kills?

Sorry, only just managed to get a closer look and it's 36 kills, reflection over the 3 made it look like an 8. wonder who that is

brainfreeze

Deleted User wrote: »

But there was a few years between the episode and First Contact, wasn't there? Plus Picard seemed to go through hell at the hand's of the Cardassians for a prolonged period of time, and then... nothing.

You can't really fault TNG that much, because it was a mostly episodic show being a product of its time, but you are correct. That was one of the biggest flaws of Trek.

DS9 Broke that cycle, and Miles O'Briens PTSD was a recurring theme - one episode he tried to commit suicide! Pretty much everything that happened post season 3 had lasting effects on the characters. Even sub characters, watching Nog go from a happy go lucky cheeky little scamp into a depressed, battle hardened young lieutenant was interesting. And he's not even that important.

You can't get that type of character building when the slate is wiped clean every episode. I'm glad Discovery is not that type of show. I supposed in 2017 you couldn't get away with that for anything that is slightly more than a generic sitcom.

coffee_cake

spookwoman wrote: »

Sorry, only just managed to get a closer look and it's 36 kills, reflection over the 3 made it look like an 8. wonder who that is

Was that not from the klingon holodeck thing with the head of security? actually wasn't the head of security guy the one who got the 36? or did you see that again somewhere else?

brainfreeze

brainfreeze wrote: »

You can't really fault TNG that much, because it was a mostly episodic show being a product of its time, but you are correct. That was one of the biggest flaws of Trek.

DS9 Broke that cycle, and Miles O'Briens PTSD was a recurring theme - one episode he tried to commit suicide! Pretty much everything that happened post season 3 had lasting effects on the characters. Even sub characters, watching Nog go from a happy go lucky cheeky little scamp into a depressed, battle hardened young lieutenant was interesting. And he's not even that important.

You can't get that type of character building when the slate is wiped clean every episode. I'm glad Discovery is not that type of show. I supposed in 2017 you couldn't get away with that for anything that is slightly more than a generic sitcom.

Nog going from happy-go-lucky to battle-hardened and then, ultimately, suffering from PTSD was such an excellent character progression. And Miles was the exact same.

server down

bluewolf wrote: »

Was that not from the klingon holodeck thing with the head of security? actually wasn't the head of security guy the one who got the 36? or did you see that again somewhere else?

Yes. Ash got 36 kills. He lied and said 22 to not embarrass the captain - but the captain checked.

AMKC

bluewolf wrote: »

oooh!! because she was looking all confused at her phaser when the klingons attacked!!
or maybe tyler did it because he's head of security now he'd know about the mission
although someone on reddit pointed out the klingons didn't fire either, they stabbed the guys, so maybe there was an anti weapons thing in place. hmm

Its called a dampening field.

Inviere wrote: »

^^ Wouldn't surprise me at all! The only issue with it, is it's a tad predictable and very reminiscent of the Redemption TNG storyline. If I recall correctly, and I'm digging deep in my ST brain here, but I'm fairly sure its written in canon that the

Klingons did obtain cloaking tech from the Romulans, in exchange for the D7 or D5 design

...or something very similar to that effect

Yes that is true.

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH Lorca was just tortured and is still overcoming what happened to his last ship.

And something I actually love is how this stuff is carrying on into other episodes. I can't remember, but I seem to remember that when Picard was captured and tortured, there was no real mention of it in later episodes.

No he just talked to Dianna at the end of the second of them episodes but that was it. But I would say a lot more time passed its just that we never seen it. Could have been a good chance to let Riker command the ship for a while when Picard was get counselling.

fxotoole wrote: »

They played on Picard's PTSD after being Locutus a fair bit. It was referenced in the episode immediately after "The Best of Both Worlds part 2", and it was also delved into in Star Trek: First Contact.

That episode being "Family"

Deleted User wrote: »

But there was a few years between the episode and First Contact, wasn't there? Plus Picard seemed to go through hell at the hand's of the Cardassians for a prolonged period of time, and then... nothing.

Yes there was.

I say there was more they we just never got to see that or know how many weeks went by all we seen was him talking to Dianna at the end of the second of them episodes but that was it. But I would say a lot more time passed its just that we never seen it. Could have been a good chance to let Riker command the ship for a while when Picard was get counselling.


As for this episode I really liked it but was not to keen on the floating/out of body bit.

Also how did they use the spore drive this time I wonder. Did Stamets step into the room again with the spores we never got to see. I am also surprised they never showed if Lorca was angry with Micheal or not for letting the creature go.
I knew well the Klingons were not going to negotiate so soon so the ending was very obvious.

server down

How they are using the spore drive (probably Stamets) will no doubt be revealed more in the next few episodes. You’d think anyway.

Spear

A cynical supposition:

it's been 4 episodes with Lorca and he's going off the rails fairly quickly.

And Jason Isaacs is the biggest name among the regular cast, and thus more expensive.

I wonder if he's only signed on for one season to help anchor the show, and thus will never see season 2.