Discovery 1x06 – "Lethe" [** SPOILERS **]

Sad Professor

Warning: This thread will contain spoilers for the episode "Lethe". Spoiler tags will not be used, so if you don't want to be spoiled read no further.

Spear

Not the episode I was expecting at all, given their suggestion of a mirror universe one previously.

It seems a bit more traditionally episodic compared to the rest so far as well.

The depiction of Vulcans is a lot less flattering than anything else I can recall, with them being openly racist and cruel.

Whereas it's almost the opposite with Lorca.

It's like the episode wanted to just character development, and neglected story development.

FutureGuy

Spear wrote: »

Not the episode I was expecting at all, given their suggestion of a mirror universe one previously.

It seems a bit more traditionally episodic compared to the rest so far as well.

The depiction of Vulcans is a lot less flattering than anything else I can recall, with them being openly racist and cruel.

Whereas it's almost the opposite with Lorca.

It's like the episode wanted to just character development, and neglected story development.

There was definitely some story development but some of the characters badly needed to be fleshed out and we got that in abundance.

Really enjoyed the episode. Great character interactions and I felt the dialog was much better this week. Lorca is such a great character though and is very well played.

There is absolutely no way this is our Stamets though. He's definitely from another dimension.

EDIT: I initially got really annoyed by the "holodeck" but then found out that TAS has one.

Fenster

Spear wrote: »

The depiction of Vulcans is a lot less flattering than anything else I can recall, with them being openly racist and cruel.

We've seen this in the past, though.

• In Gamit (TNG)], a Vulcan isolationist movement pursued the Stone of Gol as a way to force Vulcan to leave the Federation.
• Early drafts of Homefront (DS9) saw a crisis triggered by Vulcan's secession from the Federation.
• The Vulcan High Command (ENT) steadfastly pursued Vulcan interests at the cost of relations with other races.

Overall, I think the writers explore this as a mirror of humanity in Star Trek. The Vulcans enlightened and uplifted our species and culture, but even if they're better, Vulcans still came from the same base background. IMO, a great (size) part of Star Trek is about the struggle to be better. It's a rather Zen thing.

FutureGuy

Fenster wrote: »

We've seen this in the past, though.

• In Gamit (TNG)], a Vulcan isolationist movement pursued the Stone of Gol as a way to force Vulcan to leave the Federation.
• Early drafts of Homefront (DS9) saw a crisis triggered by Vulcan's secession from the Federation.
• The Vulcan High Command (ENT) steadfastly pursued Vulcan interests at the cost of relations with other races.

Overall, I think the writers explore this as a mirror of humanity in Star Trek. The Vulcans enlightened and uplifted our species and culture, but even if they're better, Vulcans still came from the same base background. IMO, a great (size) part of Star Trek is about the struggle to be better. It's a rather Zen thing.

The Vulcans were downright dislikeable in Enterprise and even in DS9, the Vulcans who challenged the crew to the baseball game were assholes.

_Kaiser_

The depiction of these (earlier) Vulcans doesn't bother me actually.. as said above, it fits between the ENT portrayals and the TOS/TNG . The ridiculous devil-like ears though have to go.

As for the rest... still not doing it for me I'm afraid. Aside from the Lorca bits - the less focus on Burnham the better.

Fenster

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The ridiculous devil-like ears though have to go.

AFAIK the green blood and pointy ears were intentional on Roddenberry's part. He chose so in order to build a visual association with demons and the devil, while at the same time show they are peaceful (mostly) and logical. Roddenberry wanted Vulcans to be the kind of people we should aspire to match. Confront your prejudices and all that.

Spear

Fenster wrote: »

We've seen this in the past, though.

• In Gamit (TNG)], a Vulcan isolationist movement pursued the Stone of Gol as a way to force Vulcan to leave the Federation.
• Early drafts of Homefront (DS9) saw a crisis triggered by Vulcan's secession from the Federation.
• The Vulcan High Command (ENT) steadfastly pursued Vulcan interests at the cost of relations with other races.

Arrogant and self interested is one thing, but telling a proud father that his children are "experiments" to his face, or the later act of terrorism, does seem a step beyond that.

_Kaiser_

Fenster wrote: »

AFAIK the green blood and pointy ears were intentional on Roddenberry's part. He chose so in order to build a visual association with demons and the devil, while at the same time show they are peaceful (mostly) and logical. Roddenberry wanted Vulcans to be the kind of people we should aspire to match. Confront your prejudices and all that.

I know all about Vulcans having pointed ears but it seems Discovery (like with everything else) has to "amplify it to the MAX" :rolleyes:

FutureGuy

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I know all about Vulcans having pointed ears but it seems Discovery (like with everything else) has to "amplify it to the MAX" :rolleyes:

These's absolutely no winning with you, is there.

While most media outlets are giving it great reviews, you call out the pointy ears.

FutureGuy

http://ew.com/recap/star-trek-discovery-season-1-episode-6/

EW gives 1x06 an "A-"

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2017/10/23/star-trek-discovery-lethe-review

IGN gives it 87%

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/star-trek-discovery/feature/a841235/star-trek-discovery-episode-6-review-lethe/

"Basically, 'Lethe' is a great example of everything that Star Trek: Discovery can do well."

https://tldrmoviereviews.com/2017/10/23/tv-review-star-trek-discovery-lethe/

"In the end, I’m really finding the direction of the story quite captivating as we hurtle through the season."

https://www.empireonline.com/tv/star-trek-discovery-season-1-episode-6-lethe/

4 stars/5

_Kaiser_

FutureGuy wrote: »

These's absolutely no winning with you, is there.

While most media outlets are giving it great reviews, you call out the pointy ears.

I don't give a toss what the paid reviewers think.. I'll make up my own mind thanks.

If you want these threads to be just for those oohing and aahing over the fancy effects and edgy characters fine... for what it is, Discovery is alright in places - I just don't consider this in the vein of Star Trek (which IS something your aforementioned reviewers have conceded).

It's more like BSG, GoT or any other modern drama, but Trek (even during the war seasons of DS9) was always more hopeful and optimistic than this "gritty war drama" we're getting, with characters you could actually get behind and liked watching.

It's ironic that they dropped the "Star Trek" name from Enterprise at the start, until they realised their mistake whereas here adding the "Star Trek" name to this show is completely misplaced IMO

The Orville, panned by your reviewers but loved by its fans, has managed to tap into this slot far more effectively and of the two shows it's that which I look forward to every week.

But by all means continue...

hal9550

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I don't give a toss what the paid reviewers think.. I'll make up my own mind thanks.

If you want these threads to be just for those oohing and aahing over the fancy effects and edgy characters fine... for what it is, Discovery is alright in places - I just don't consider this in the vein of Star Trek (which IS something your aforementioned reviewers have conceded).

It's more like BSG, GoT or any other modern drama, but Trek (even during the war seasons of DS9) was always more hopeful and optimistic than this "gritty war drama" we're getting, with characters you could actually get behind and liked watching.

It's ironic that they dropped the "Star Trek" name from Enterprise at the start, until they realised their mistake whereas here adding the "Star Trek" name to this show is completely misplaced IMO

The Orville, panned by your reviewers but loved by its fans, has managed to tap into this slot far more effectively and of the two shows it's that which I look forward to every week.

But by all means continue...

I really dont understand the argument that Discovery is not Star trek. i just dont get it.. Its Star Trek, displaying the federation at war with its original rival, the Klingon Empire.

This episode was decent albeit not as good as episode 3 in my mind. The story was decent enough. Vulcans trying to mediate makes sense. They had a relationship with the Klingons long before Earth had even developed Warp Capability (Didnt they insist on mediating after the klingon crashed on earth in the pilot of Enterprise). As to Lorca he is class! ANd i for one agree with you on Burnham i honestly am not a fan (yet.. its been 6 episodes)

The earlier comment you made on vulcan ears baffles me.. Would you mind explaining? Are the prosthetic different? If so i hadnt noticed. Then again i am kinda busy concentrating on the fact that Star Trek is back on TV.

_Kaiser_ im not doubting that you are a trekkie, and for the record iv nit picked enough Trek episodes and films over the years!! But i genuinely still dont understand your basic argument that Discovery is not Trek?

would you mind explaining, just for comparison, what in your mind DOES constitute Star Trek? (Just in case this is taken as offensive, il state now its an honest question)

For me star trek is many things and evolves depending on where you look in the timeline!

Enterprise was like a PROTO Federation starship.. Not the may west technologically speaking.. Not the most skilled crew and yet it had decent moments.. and i say that as a fan who believes it will always be the weakest of the star trek series (By far in my opinion)

TOS was classic. But in terms of an evolution of the federation it was still only new.. Diplomacy necessary even within member states.. Lots of threats

TNG DS9 and Voy - The federation is established as a powerhouse if not the most organized super power in existence. Yet during the dominion war, the gloves had to come off! And quite right too as the federations existence was in jeopardy

Comparing the Orville to Discovery.. again i just dont see it.. Massively off topic but for me, Orville is

• Strange yet mildly entertaining
• Not nearly as funny as i expected (which is as bad as it is good)
• No where near as enjoyable as Red Dwarf, if a comparison is to be made with another comedy set on a starship

in my opinion, comparing Orville to Star Trek at all, regardless of what position you take is nonsensical.


Happy to discuss but for me im dying to see the next episode!

My theory for anyone who wants to discuss, is that the mirror universe will be unveiled at the end of the mid season.. and probably has something to do with the spores being 'omni-present in both realities

Fenster

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I know all about Vulcans having pointed ears but it seems Discovery (like with everything else) has to "amplify it to the MAX" :rolleyes:

Vulcans have had pointed ears since episode 1, 1966. What do you want? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

_Kaiser_

OK, I'll give this another try...

First, on the ears... the prosthetic is definitely sharper - more pointed if you will - and just doesn't look right IMO .. like everything else in this series and to varying degrees, it's been tweaked for the sake of it and that in fact is part of the underlying problem.

There's not ONE character on this show that I like, even after 6 episodes. Ensign Tilly is probably the closest to what I'd expect. The rest... brooding, edgy, conflicted types who argue with each other a lot... which is fine - previous Trek had those characters too, but not making up the entire core crew.
Then there's the designs.. dark, usually badly lit, and again not fitting into what we know of the era. You can't even say "well Discovery is a super-secret Prototype" because they've fecked with EVERYTHING.. shuttles, alien ships and races (especially the Klingons) "just coz".

I've no problem with change if the changes make sense.. but remember all of this is supposedly to line up with what we saw in TOS. I am not talking about blinking lights and switches, but these ships, these PEOPLE and their attitudes/ethos, are not the Starfleet and Federation we've seen,
and those certainly aren't the Klingons we know (they did get the Vulcans about right this week though) - they wouldn't even fit into TNG/DS9. Despite this, we're supposed to accept that in less than 10 years, all of this behaviour and bitterness will be largely put behind them and they'll
transform into the Starfleet/Federation we know. As has been said lots of times, the entire series would fit better tonally after VOY, or in a Mirror Universe, or just not part of the Trek franchise at all.

The comparisons to the Orville are valid. It may have been marketed as a comedy/spoof by Fox, but it's shown to have a lot more depth in reality and tonally fits far better with TNG. Likeable characters, optimistic and even humor!
Now I know that in our "mature" TV market of gritty realism, graphic violence and dizzying special effects, TNG in 2017 would probably look "wrong" too.. but I think that the Orville has shown there's still a real market for that STYLE of sci-fi.

Maybe I'm just not the target market for this show as I've never watched the Walking Dead, and Game of Thrones is something I've only slowly started watching, and I don't expect - or want - either of these from Star Trek.

hal9550

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK, I'll give this another try...

First, on the ears... the prosthetic is definitely sharper - more pointed if you will - and just doesn't look right IMO .. like everything else in this series and to varying degrees, it's been tweaked for the sake of it and that in fact is part of the underlying problem.

There's not ONE character on this show that I like, even after 6 episodes. Ensign Tilly is probably the closest to what I'd expect. The rest... brooding, edgy, conflicted types who argue with each other a lot... which is fine - previous Trek had those characters too, but not making up the entire core crew.
Then there's the designs.. dark, usually badly lit, and again not fitting into what we know of the era. You can't even say "well Discovery is a super-secret Prototype" because they've fecked with EVERYTHING.. shuttles, alien ships and races (especially the Klingons) "just coz".

I've no problem with change if the changes make sense.. but remember all of this is supposedly to line up with what we saw in TOS. I am not talking about blinking lights and switches, but these ships, these PEOPLE and their attitudes/ethos, are not the Starfleet and Federation we've seen,
and those certainly aren't the Klingons we know (they did get the Vulcans about right this week though) - they wouldn't even fit into TNG/DS9. Despite this, we're supposed to accept that in less than 10 years, all of this behaviour and bitterness will be largely put behind them and they'll
transform into the Starfleet/Federation we know. As has been said lots of times, the entire series would fit better tonally after VOY, or in a Mirror Universe, or just not part of the Trek franchise at all.

The comparisons to the Orville are valid. It may have been marketed as a comedy/spoof by Fox, but it's shown to have a lot more depth in reality and tonally fits far better with TNG. Likeable characters, optimistic and even humor!
Now I know that in our "mature" TV market of gritty realism, graphic violence and dizzying special effects, TNG in 2017 would probably look "wrong" too.. but I think that the Orville has shown there's still a real market for that STYLE of sci-fi.

Maybe I'm just not the target market for this show as I've never watched the Walking Dead, and Game of Thrones is something I've only slowly started watching, and I don't expect - or want - either of these from Star Trek.

Taking what you have said, i would run with it as follows:

Vulcan ears: Personally i think this is a non issue. Perhaps they are more pointed and that is different. But surely we would acknowledge that within any species in trek, or nature for that matter, their can be subtle differences in appearance

Characters: Look Kaiser you are kinda preaching to a partially converted on this one. I like lorca, the engineer, and the new security officer in that order from most to least. The rest i genuinely dont like.. with the caveat of saying i am not fans of theirs YET!! Its been 6 episodes..!! Would you as a trekkie, say that by episode 6 of the next generation, you REALLY liked Data? Or Riker? Or even Picard?? Cause i remember as a kid watching them and being upset that spock wasnt on TNG!!:pac:

The Aesthetics of the show in general, lighting, the ship etc: Would you honestly look at the bridge of the NX-01 and say.. Yes i can see how that evolved into the TOS constitution class bridge? It was frequently badly lit, and had controls and LCD screens covering every conceivable inch of space.. Genuinely Kaiser this is simply a more modern show with a more modern aesthetic of Starships and equipment. I am not a fan of prequels and always find it baffling that a show whos fandom obsesses over continuity and canon, continually insists on having Prequels and episodes set in the past!! But its star trek and i can live with it!!

Klingons! Its basically as above pal! Same argument i would say. As a fellow trekkie did you see the Motion Picture and immediately argue that 'Those arent Klingons, why do they have ridges??' We had to wait 20+ years for an explanation to that!!!!! Star Trek has changed and evolved many times and im fine with it. A canon explanation could be that some klingons afflicted with the Eugenics/Mutation Virus chose to use steroid like drugs that worked too well and made them look WAY TOO Klingon - ridges more pronounced - change in pigmentation! Remember when Worf de-evolved in a TNG episode? His skin wasnt unlike what we are seeing now!

As too how it will get to TOS in terms of overall tone? I dont know! But Kaiser we have 6 episodes of a 1st season.. and now thankfully its been renewed! Give it a chance i say, honestly!

I wouldnt debate you on the Orville i just think its a strange comparison. I have watched it and i dont feel its TNG style at all. To be honest i dont know what the orville is. To be honest im not sure the Orville knows what it is! Comedy? Serious Comedy? Serious drama with a dash of comedy? Il keep watching but my jury is way out on it, but again thats me.

Finally, i get what you are saying in that the Tone is subtly different. Its darker for sure. But I want Trek to survive mate. They tried to make enterprise 'fit in' with our view of Trad-Trek and it failed miserably. And excluding JJs outing, Trek faded into the wilderness for many years man. The franchise on TV was dead. This is a genuine attempt to breath life into star trek and im genuinely giving it a chance.

I Like it.. I also have some doubts.. and many questions.. but i like it.

Evade

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

First, on the ears... the prosthetic is definitely sharper - more pointed if you will - and just doesn't look right IMO .. like everything else in this series and to varying degrees, it's been tweaked for the sake of it and that in fact is part of the underlying problem.

The ears are bizarrely more like the TOS ears than the much slimmer ones we saw in TNG and beyond which does seem to be at odds with all the other changes made.

I see the evidence is mounting for Lorca being from the mirror universe.

The PT gear having Disco instead of Discovery just doesn't look right.

Slydice

Ooooh that got dark!

or did it!?

I mean.. maybe she convinced him to be good.

Or maybe he stabbed her in the back!

Inviere

Yet another good ep, really starting to get into this show now. On the Vulcans thing, as said previous, Star Trek has history with racist & arrogant Vulcans. We've seen them exhibit worse than shown here on Discovery too. That said, I'm not a fan of that portrayal of Vulcan people, I don't think it suits them, and it just makes them Romulans pt.2. I think the Vulcans should be like Spock and Tuvok...infuriatingly logical, rarely emotional, but true to the human condition. Anything else, and they become more generic and diluted.

Johnny Storm

That was a *really* good episode :pac:

On the other hand, Michael's running style is a bit dodgy :eek:

hal9550

Inviere wrote: »

Yet another good ep, really starting to get into this show now. On the Vulcans thing, as said previous, Star Trek has history with racist & arrogant Vulcans. We've seen them exhibit worse than shown here on Discovery too. That said, I'm not a fan of that portrayal of Vulcan people, I don't think it suits them, and it just makes them Romulans pt.2. I think the Vulcans should be like Spock and Tuvok...infuriatingly logical, rarely emotional, but true to the human condition. Anything else, and they become more generic and diluted.

Maybe the romulan influence highlighted in Enterprise has left some residual 'xenophobia' within their society?

or even more excitingly

Maybe the romulans are behind some of the events in Discovery - the presence of Klingon cloaking devices.. it could be the first romulan attempt at gaining vengeance for their defeat in the Earth Romulan war? Kinda a divide and conquer approach. Hypothesis.. for a moment imagine they are involved.. We could assume they dont have the same amount of resources as either starfleet OR the Klingon empire.. But if those states went to war and depleted each others forces, it would work in the romulans favor, regardless of who emerged victorious.. Isnt it possible that the romulans are in league.. we do know that there was an alliance at one stage.. Perhaps backing Kol or Tkuvma is the precursor to those events

Inviere

hal9550 wrote: »

Maybe the romulan influence highlighted in Enterprise has left some residual 'xenophobia' within their society?

or even more excitingly

Maybe the romulans are behind some of the events in Discovery - the presence of Klingon cloaking devices.. it could be the first romulan attempt at gaining vengeance for their defeat in the Earth Romulan war? Kinda a divide and conquer approach. Hypothesis.. for a moment imagine they are involved.. We could assume they dont have the same amount of resources as either starfleet OR the Klingon empire.. But if those states went to war and depleted each others forces, it would work in the romulans favor, regardless of who emerged victorious.. Isnt it possible that the romulans are in league.. we do know that there was an alliance at one stage.. Perhaps backing Kol or Tkuvma is the precursor to those events

^^ Wouldn't surprise me at all! The only issue with it, is it's a tad predictable and very reminiscent of the Redemption TNG storyline. If I recall correctly, and I'm digging deep in my ST brain here, but I'm fairly sure its written in canon that the

Klingons did obtain cloaking tech from the Romulans, in exchange for the D7 or D5 design

...or something very similar to that effect

Johnny Storm

Evade wrote: »

I see the evidence is mounting for Lorca being from the mirror universe.

+1 The admiral more or less spelled it out... plus there was a little hint of a reflection of Lorca for no reason at all in the final scene. Are the writers of this show smart enough to try to double-bluff us about Lorca being mirror-Lorca? Before this episode I would have said no, but now I am not sure.

FutureGuy wrote:

The Vulcans were downright dislikeable in Enterprise and even in DS9...

Yes, but I am quite enjoying this portrayal of Sarek, he is the Phil Dunphy of Vulcans, "Behave"

server down

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK, I'll give this another try...

First, on the ears... the prosthetic is definitely sharper - more pointed if you will - and just doesn't look right IMO .. like everything else in this series and to varying degrees, it's been tweaked for the sake of it and that in fact is part of the underlying problem.

There's not ONE character on this show that I like, even after 6 episodes. Ensign Tilly is probably the closest to what I'd expect. The rest... brooding, edgy, conflicted types who argue with each other a lot... which is fine - previous Trek had those characters too, but not making up the entire core crew.
Then there's the designs.. dark, usually badly lit, and again not fitting into what we know of the era. You can't even say "well Discovery is a super-secret Prototype" because they've fecked with EVERYTHING.. shuttles, alien ships and races (especially the Klingons) "just coz".

I've no problem with change if the changes make sense.. but remember all of this is supposedly to line up with what we saw in TOS. I am not talking about blinking lights and switches, but these ships, these PEOPLE and their attitudes/ethos, are not the Starfleet and Federation we've seen,
and those certainly aren't the Klingons we know (they did get the Vulcans about right this week though) - they wouldn't even fit into TNG/DS9. Despite this, we're supposed to accept that in less than 10 years, all of this behaviour and bitterness will be largely put behind them and they'll
transform into the Starfleet/Federation we know. As has been said lots of times, the entire series would fit better tonally after VOY, or in a Mirror Universe, or just not part of the Trek franchise at all.

The comparisons to the Orville are valid. It may have been marketed as a comedy/spoof by Fox, but it's shown to have a lot more depth in reality and tonally fits far better with TNG. Likeable characters, optimistic and even humor!
Now I know that in our "mature" TV market of gritty realism, graphic violence and dizzying special effects, TNG in 2017 would probably look "wrong" too.. but I think that the Orville has shown there's still a real market for that STYLE of sci-fi.

Maybe I'm just not the target market for this show as I've never watched the Walking Dead, and Game of Thrones is something I've only slowly started watching, and I don't expect - or want - either of these from Star Trek.

Every new Trek is hated by a small group of militant Trekkies. I believe that TNG had protestors outside the studio - imagine how riled up you’d need to be for that - and Janeway got death threats because she was a woman.

All these Star Trek versions are different. The Vulcans looked different. The captains weren’t exactly the same. Some character or another annoyed somebody.


As for Trek at war - whenever we saw the federation at war, like in yesterday’s enterprise - the mood was somber and grim.

Evade

Johnny Storm wrote: »

+1 The admiral more or less spelled it out... plus there was a little hint of a reflection of Lorca for no reason at all in the final scene. Are the writers of this show smart enough to try to double-bluff us about Lorca being mirror-Lorca? Before this episode I would have said no, but now I am not sure.

There's also Lorca being able to memorise someone's service file but not managing to remember something pretty personal between himself and the admiral. Almost as if that event wasn't written down anywhere for him to read about.

Evade

server down wrote: »

Every new Trek is hated by a small group of militant Trekkies.

There's also the "I'm just glad Trek is back on TV" group. Did they make the same excuses for early Enterprise?

Zillah

It had some nice ideas - I thought fleshing out Sarek via mind-delving was kind of cool, and I really like where they are going with Lorca - but overall I still think the execution is sloppy. The dialogue is frequently flat, plots and plot elements are shoved in your face with all the style and panache of a bored canteen worker. The seduction of the admiral was cringey, tone was all off; the whiskey coming out was a non sequitur. The kidnap was so painfully obvious.

It still feels like an entirely new, slightly cheesy, scifi show using a lot of Star Trek words in it.

FutureGuy wrote: »

There is absolutely no way this is our Stamets though. He's definitely from another dimension.

I bet he's doing some weird mind-meld with the mushrooms. It's our Stamets but he's all messed up.

Johnny Storm wrote: »

plus there was a little hint of a reflection of Lorca for no reason at all in the final scene

Of course there is a reason. Showing a character looking at their reflection is a huge cliche for suggesting that they are being introspective. I really hope we just have an interesting, messed-up captain rather than some silly mirror universe stuff.

Spear

Spear wrote: »

Not the episode I was expecting at all, given their suggestion of a mirror universe one previously.
.

Wha? stamets has totally flipped. I bet he's the lighthearted mirror stamets instead of grumpy stamets

I love tilly, she's great

Holy moly @ spock!!!!

Those replicators would bug the bejaysus out of me. stop telling me what's in my food or how tasty it's supposed to be and stfu and replicate it!!

I knew the admiral was gonna be in trouble. The second there's a "when i come back", you know it. especially as she was threatening his captaincy.
What was the final scene about? was that his phaser they were closing in on?

Antar Bolaeisk

bluewolf wrote: »

I knew the admiral was gonna be in trouble. The second there's a "when i come back", you know it. especially as she was threatening his captaincy.
What was the final scene about? was that his phaser they were closing in on?

I think it might have been the Admiral's phaser. Maybe Lorca swapped it out with a dud.

Antar Bolaeisk

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

I think it might have been the Admiral's phaser. Maybe Lorca swapped it out with a dud.

oooh!! because she was looking all confused at her phaser when the klingons attacked!!
or maybe tyler did it because he's head of security now he'd know about the mission
although someone on reddit pointed out the klingons didn't fire either, they stabbed the guys, so maybe there was an anti weapons thing in place. hmm

server down

Another reference to Alice. Alice went through the looking glass (ie mirror) into a different universe.

spookwoman

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK, I'll give this another try...

First, on the ears... the prosthetic is definitely sharper - more pointed if you will - and just doesn't look right IMO .. like everything else in this series and to varying degrees, it's been tweaked for the sake of it and that in fact is part of the underlying problem.

The Vulcan ears have changes through the times. Episode 44 of TOS Sareks ears are practically the same

The_Valeyard

A really strong episode. Good auld Star Trek. Excluding the ending with Lorca, but a good solid well rounded episode.

Slydice

Sarek in some of the more colourful scenes reminded me a little bit of TOS romulans

Goodshape

Very good episode.

c_man

Well who would have guessed that the alliance talks were a ruse...

Lorca knew the Admiral was going to get captured. Or at least he had a feeling it was going to be an ambush - it's why he suggested she should go instead of anyone else. He knew she'd get captured, possibly dead, and nobody will be able to take his ship away (she mentioned that when she gets back is when she wants it to happen - giving the assumption that she hadn't processed anything yet).

I took the ending scence as him looking at his reflection, not the outside, and looking at what he had become; someone who not only possibly sent his "old flame" to be captured, but also delighted in it.

brainfreeze

Spear wrote: »

Arrogant and self interested is one thing, but telling a proud father that his children are "experiments" to his face, or the later act of terrorism, does seem a step beyond that.

But this is already established, no? He outright states to Spock that he married his mother because it was logical, as he is the Vulcan ambassador to earth. This is how he's always portrayed his family, and its a part of the conflict he has with spock.

In the 2009 universe split, he admits "You once asked me why I married your mother. I married her because I loved her." to show that his previous statements are horse**** because he's stubborn. But nobody else would know that, all other Vulcans, Including Spock himself apart from this alternate timeline, would assume his entire family is a Sarek experiement due to being ambassador.

And we've had Vulcan terrorists in Trek. The Syrrannites, who follow Surak, bombed Earths Embassy on Vulcan. Everything you have mentioned has already been established.

Johnny Storm

Pretty sure that the shot from the rear of Michael running is a slimmer, more athletic body double

Greyjoy

Spear wrote: »

Not the episode I was expecting at all, given their suggestion of a mirror universe one previously.

It seems a bit more traditionally episodic compared to the rest so far as well.

The depiction of Vulcans is a lot less flattering than anything else I can recall, with them being openly racist and cruel.

Whereas it's almost the opposite with Lorca.

It's like the episode wanted to just character development, and neglected story development.

i got the same feeling from it as well. The character stuff was interesting to a degree even if they did portray Sarek as a terrible parent. The rescue storyline felt pointless to me - we know since this is a prequel that Sarek will survive so there was nothing at stake.

Greyjoy

Greyjoy wrote: »

i got the same feeling from it as well. The character stuff was interesting to a degree even if they did portray Sarek as a terrible parent. The rescue storyline felt pointless to me - we know since this is a prequel that Sarek will survive so there was nothing at stake.

That's always the issues with prequels, TBH. There's a scene in the Hobbit where you weren't sure that Legolas would survive but wait, he's in the Lord of the Rings, so of course he does.

hal9550

brainfreeze wrote: »

And we've had Vulcan terrorists in Trek. The Syrrannites, who follow Surak, bombed Earths Embassy on Vulcan. Everything you have mentioned has already been established.

Actually the Syrrannites did not bomb earths embassy.. If you remember it was the Vulcan High Command who did, and then planted evidence to use the incident as a reason to attempt to wipe out all Syrrannites.. At the end it was also reveiled that the romulans were involved having apparently infiltrated Vulcan Society.. According to Memory Alpha, had Enterprise been renewed it would have revealed that T'Pols Father was a romulan operative.. Again highlighting that the Romulans are attempting to co-opt their society

Like i said in a previous post i strongly believe the Romulans will show up later in the series.. possibly this season.. easy to believe they may already be active behind the scenes, undermining Federation interests

fxotoole

hal9550 wrote: »

Maybe the romulan influence highlighted in Enterprise has left some residual 'xenophobia' within their society?

or even more excitingly

Maybe the romulans are behind some of the events in Discovery - the presence of Klingon cloaking devices.. it could be the first romulan attempt at gaining vengeance for their defeat in the Earth Romulan war? Kinda a divide and conquer approach. Hypothesis.. for a moment imagine they are involved.. We could assume they dont have the same amount of resources as either starfleet OR the Klingon empire.. But if those states went to war and depleted each others forces, it would work in the romulans favor, regardless of who emerged victorious.. Isnt it possible that the romulans are in league.. we do know that there was an alliance at one stage.. Perhaps backing Kol or Tkuvma is the precursor to those events

Don't think they'll go down this path. I think I read that the Romulons won't feature in ST Discovery.

What was with the camera lingering on Lorca's bum in the final shot? Is it a "now that Admiral whatsherface has been kidnapped, Lorca not only sleeps with a phaser set to kill, but he keeps a phaser set to kill in his back pocket all the time" kind of moment or something??

Edit: Anyone else think that the start of the title music sounds remarkably similar to the music being used in Star Wars trailers? (this one specifically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRGKoButBMs)

PhiloCypher

Evade wrote: »

There's also Lorca being able to memorise someone's service file but not managing to remember something pretty personal between himself and the admiral. Almost as if that event wasn't written down anywhere for him to read about.

I'll be honest I'd prefer and would find it more interesting if he's just a Commadore Decker like captain dealing with PTSD over what happened on his last ship then him just being a mirror doppleganger, but what you say does make a certain amount of sense .

If that's where it's going it would have been far more effective if we'd ever been given a baseline of what he was like before the Buran. The Stamets situation would be a better candidate for that reveal because we have been privy to his personality change ,whethers it's the Tardigrade DNA , he's high on Spores, or a mirror doppelganger, somethings off with him and the writers are probably going to enjoy us second guessing his motives until it's all resolved.

fxotoole

Evade wrote: »

There's also Lorca being able to memorise someone's service file but not managing to remember something pretty personal between himself and the admiral. Almost as if that event wasn't written down anywhere for him to read about.

What was this? Must have missed that line of dialogue... Do tell.

fxotoole

Zillah wrote: »

The kidnap was so painfully obvious.

^
This x1000000

I feel like the capture was supposed to be obvious - at least to us.

Goodshape

Deleted User wrote: »

I feel like the capture was supposed to be obvious - at least to us.

Absolutely. He was so quick to suggest the admiral make the trip, for a long moment I wondered was he going to personally sabotage the transport shuttle.

Lorca looking out at this reflection in the final scene was literally the character reflecting on what he has become. And carrying a phaser to show us how increasingly paranoid he is.

I guess a mirror counterpart is a possibility – and if Burnham is someone he knows from the other universe, that might explain his trust etc in her – but at the moment I feel that'd be the less interesting explanation. Almost a cop-out really.

Not convinced Stamets has flipped either. I think that would have been more obvious in last week's final scene. The Stamets in the mirror had more of an unsettling 'other' vibe to him, I thought.

But he does seem to be getting a bit of a kick out of those magic mushrooms! Looking forward to seeing where they go with this.

spookwoman

fxotoole wrote: »

What was this? Must have missed that line of dialogue... Do tell.

fxotoole wrote: »

What was this? Must have missed that line of dialogue... Do tell.

admiral - I still think about the bottle
we killed that night. We went to see
the Perseids meteor shower.
You don't remember?

Lorca - No, I was just... thinking how long ago it seems

Admiral - That's what tonight was, right?
Trying to get me
to back off.

Lorca - No.

Admiral - 'Cause it sure wasn't
what it was like before.

then later
Admiral - I hate that I can't tell
if this is really you.

I don't know if Lorca is just a nut or is from another universe. I's like to know who the 85 kills belong to

TBH Lorca was just tortured and is still overcoming what happened to his last ship.

And something I actually love is how this stuff is carrying on into other episodes. I can't remember, but I seem to remember that when Picard was captured and tortured, there was no real mention of it in later episodes.

fxotoole

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH Lorca was just tortured and is still overcoming what happened to his last ship.

And something I actually love is how this stuff is carrying on into other episodes. I can't remember, but I seem to remember that when Picard was captured and tortured, there was no real mention of it in later episodes.

They played on Picard's PTSD after being Locutus a fair bit. It was referenced in the episode immediately after "The Best of Both Worlds part 2", and it was also delved into in Star Trek: First Contact.