Discovery 1x06 – "Lethe" [** SPOILERS **]

hal9550

Deleted User wrote: »

Did they say the Mirror universe will appear this season or at some point in the show?

Gotta be honest, I always felt they were the weakest episodes of the Trek franchises that did them.

http://comicbook.com/startrek/2017/10/10/star-trek-discovery-mirror-universe/

As to you thinking the episodes are weak

• The original was excellent in my mind.. The enterprise episodes, although poorly constructed, was pretty enjoyable
• Some of the DS9 episodes were excellent, although i generally didnt like the idea of blaming Spock on the Fall and enslavement of the terrans

Further Note.. If anyone really enjoyed 'TOS MIRROR MIRROR' then i would genuinely recommend they watch this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJf2ovQtI6w


Its a Star Trek Continues Episode set after the events of the TOS episode, and it is so professionally done, with real actors that i really do consider it a true sequel

hal9550

hal9550 wrote: »

http://comicbook.com/startrek/2017/10/10/star-trek-discovery-mirror-universe/

As to you thinking the episodes are weak

• The original was excellent in my mind.. The enterprise episodes, although poorly constructed, was pretty enjoyable
• Some of the DS9 episodes were excellent, although i generally didnt like the idea of blaming Spock on the Fall and enslavement of the terrans

Further Note.. If anyone really enjoyed 'TOS MIRROR MIRROR' then i would genuinely recommend they watch this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJf2ovQtI6w


Its a Star Trek Continues Episode set after the events of the TOS episode, and it is so professionally done, with real actors that i really do consider it a true sequel

I haven't watched the TOS Mirror Universe episodes, but I always just felt that the DS9 ones were very ham-fisted and just served as a way for the cast to act out of character and wear skin-tight leather.

Again - that's just a personal opinion.

I'm still confused as to whether "upcoming episode" means this season or beyond. But likely this season.

hal9550

Deleted User wrote: »

I haven't watched the TOS Mirror Universe episodes, but I always just felt that the DS9 ones were very ham-fisted and just served as a way for the cast to act out of character and wear skin-tight leather.

Again - that's just a personal opinion.

I'm still confused as to whether "upcoming episode" means this season or beyond. But likely this season.

I read it as this season.

I would say that you are missing out having not watched Mirror Mirror.. Its without doubt one of the best episodes of TOS, and Star Trek as a whole

I genuinely Felt that the enslavement of the Terran Empire was a silly plot device to employ in the DS9 episodes.. and that they basically did it for the chance to have certain characters play a bad guy version of themselves.. Compared to the enterprise episodes 'In a mirror Darkly, (which was a silly story), .. Well in my opinion it was far more interesting to see a corrupted Starfleet, than to have 'The Alliance' being the main bad guys.. I also found the idea of a Klingon/Cardassian Alliance very hard to swallow.. The Klingons allign and practically unify with the Cardassians,, Personally the argument against this is obvious for the Klingons.. the Cardassians CANNOT be trusted!!! lol (Think O Brien said something similar in a DS9 episode, possibly read out during his trial by the Cardassians)

hal9550

hal9550 wrote: »

I read it as this season.

I would say that you are missing out having not watched Mirror Mirror.. Its without doubt one of the best episodes of TOS, and Star Trek as a whole

I genuinely Felt that the enslavement of the Terran Empire was a silly plot device to employ in the DS9 episodes.. and that they basically did it for the chance to have certain characters play a bad guy version of themselves.. Compared to the enterprise episodes 'In a mirror Darkly, (which was a silly story), .. Well in my opinion it was far more interesting to see a corrupted Starfleet, than to have 'The Alliance' being the main bad guys.. I also found the idea of a Klingon/Cardassian Alliance very hard to swallow.. The Klingons allign and practically unify with the Cardassians,, Personally the argument against this is obvious for the Klingons.. the Cardassians CANNOT be trusted!!! lol (Think O Brien said something similar in a DS9 episode, possibly read out during his trial by the Cardassians)

Oh the story aspects were likely excellent, but it got brought down massively by the likes of Sisko and Bashir et al being just bad guy versions of themselves. And then when they tried to do it again with the new Dax ...

Hopefully with Discovery being much grittier, they'll move away from the campiness of those previous ones.

hal9550

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh the story aspects were likely excellent, but it got brought down massively by the likes of Sisko and Bashir et al being just bad guy versions of themselves. And then when they tried to do it again with the new Dax ...

Hopefully with Discovery being much grittier, they'll move away from the campiness of those previous ones.

Agreed

I think logically the Discovery version will be better.. The Terran Empire will be in full swing at this point in History..

im also pretty convinced of one massive and obvious point

Georgeou will be back OF COURSE! Wouldn't at all surprise me if she is the Empress and possibly a descendant of Sato.. And it will be her attitude and actions that will convince the prime universe crew (who ever goes over that is) that the Mirror Universe is the total opposite of the prime.. Georgeou in Prime is altruistic and all about exploring peacefully.. Easy to see that her mirror counterpart could be in the process of occupying Bajor, enslaving various races, and knocking seven bells outta anyone who trys to stop her!

smunchkins

smunchkins wrote: »

Well talking about a possible mirror universe Lorca not knowing what is going on, wouldn't it be mad if he was a Klingon imposter/spy instead?
That would also fit the "reading up on files but not knowing personal stuff" theory Evade has.
Doubt it would fully pan out logically, but its interesting to watch the episodes with that in mind.

Optimus Prime wrote: »

has anyone thought that maybe the captain was replaced with the Klingon dude that has to "sacrifice everything" from the previous ep? When he was in the prison, brought down to be tortured, he was instead having his genetics or whatever scanned so the Klingon could alter himself then replace him? So when he was brought back to the cell it was the Klingon not the captain?

The captain is still in the cell with Harry mud and maybe seperatly they escape which will bring mud back into the show again..

he escaped, pretty easily, and is now sleeping with a phaser, doesn't remember some stuff the other admiral was going on about, being with him is not the same as before etc..

Just speculating!

Hepeated..... :rolleyes:

smunchkins

smunchkins wrote: »

Hepeated..... :rolleyes:

... what? Hepeated?

Goodshape

Ordered: https://shop.startrek.com/product/Z1CTSTK221/star-trek-discovery-disco-tshirt

As merchandising goes, this one's pretty great I think.

Goodshape

Deleted User wrote: »

Gotta be honest, I always felt they were the weakest episodes of the Trek franchises that did them.

Totally agree. With exception of the original series episode ("Mirror, Mirror" – well worth a watch!) they've always seemed like more fun for the cast and crew than the viewer, and gives the writers too much room to get away with some silly out-of-character, out-of-context, stuff. Hope Discovery does better.

And building a character up only to reveal they're not who we thought they were is a terrible plot device. It'd work for Ash because of the way he was brought onboard, and there's been a palpable suspicion both on the show and in the forums since he joined.

But Lorca has reasons for being how he is. The fact that he is unhinged is the thing that makes him interesting. To suddenly turn around and say "oh, gotcha! This is just the evil imposter version! The real Lorca is..." ...well who cares who the 'real' Lorca is? We've gotten to know this one. You can't just bait-and-switch a character like that. (I hope).

Although I think people are getting carried away with the mirror-universe speculation anyway. Something is happening there. Let's just let it play out.

Johnny Storm

hal9550 wrote: »

I would say that you are missing out having not watched Mirror Mirror.. Its without doubt one of the best episodes of TOS, and Star Trek as a whole...

+1

I still can't remember whether we've seen any Tribbles since Lorca has returned. If we haven't, then it'll definitely signal that he is, in fact, a Klingon.

Mitch Connor

Deleted User wrote: »

I still can't remember whether we've seen any Tribbles since Lorca has returned. If we haven't, then it'll definitely signal that he is, in fact, a Klingon.

Or the writers know people may think that - and don't want to put a Tribble in the scene to confirm or deny that line of thought until they start hitting their reveals.

FutureGuy

Deleted User wrote: »

I still can't remember whether we've seen any Tribbles since Lorca has returned. If we haven't, then it'll definitely signal that he is, in fact, a Klingon.

I though that last night. It could be that Ash being a Klingon is a ruse and Lorca was replaced when he left Ash in the corridor for a few moments.

I spent an hour yesterday talking to my brother about all the theories and she made the point that it was fantastic to be able to talk theory about a Trek show.

I need to watch the episode again

AMKC

FutureGuy wrote: »

I though that last night. It could be that Ash being a Klingon is a ruse and Lorca was replaced when he left Ash in the corridor for a few moments.

I spent an hour yesterday talking to my brother about all the theories and she made the point that it was fantastic to be able to talk theory about a Trek show.

I need to watch the episode again

I noticed that your brother just became a your sister so Wow that was quick

Me I think the Enterprise Mirror episode and the TOS mirror episodes are the best and while I enjoyed the DS9 ones I agree it was just a way to have darker versions of the crew in tight clothes and that a Klingon/Cardassian alliance is unlikely to work. They were a bit of fun to for the actors am sure to do.

Greyjoy

Goodshape wrote: »

And building a character up only to reveal they're not who we thought they were is a terrible plot device. It'd work for Ash because of the way he was brought onboard, and there's been a palpable suspicion both on the show and in the forums since he joined.

But Lorca has reasons for being how he is. The fact that he is unhinged is the thing that makes him interesting. To suddenly turn around and say "oh, gotcha! This is just the evil imposter version! The real Lorca is..." ...well who cares who the 'real' Lorca is? We've gotten to know this one. You can't just bait-and-switch a character like that. (I hope).

Yeah if Lorca is revealed to be a mirror-counterpart or klingon spy/brainwashed it'll be a massive cop-out. He's like Capt Ransom - an example of what happens when Starfleet/Federation starts to abandon its morals under pressure. If it turns out that he is in fact a from the mirror universe or klingon spy it provides too neat an excuse to explain his actions.

spookwoman

Bothers me why Ash would lie about the number of kills.

PhiloCypher

While I've seen enough evidence to suggest he probably is , am I the only one who really likes Ash and hopes he isn't Voq. There was a great lower decks feel to the scenes between Burnham Tilly and Ash and I'd kinda hate to see the bond between them broken by the revelation that he's actually Voq in disguise.

AMKC

spookwoman wrote: »

Bothers me why Ash would lie about the number of kills.

To make his Captain look good and not embarrasses him. Would not want to upset his new Captain.

PhiloCypher wrote: »

While I've seen enough evidence to suggest he probably is , am I the only one who really likes Ash and hopes he isn't Voq. There was a great lower decks feel to the scenes between Burnham Tilly and Ash and I'd kinda hate to see the bond between them broken by the revelation that he's actually Voq in disguise.

I like Ash too. I agree there sure was. I also like Tilly and Micheal.

coffee_cake

Am i imagining it or was there a thing with lorca and his fortune cookies after he came back

bluewolf

bluewolf wrote: »

Am i imagining it or was there a thing with lorca and his fortune cookies after he came back

How do you mean? He definitely ate one.

pixelburp

Yeah, I think having Lorca be a spy would completely undermine the whole arc of his character, not least this weeks episode and his tacit decision to leave the Admiral to her fate. This seemed more like the first true step towards his proper moral corruption, one that I suspect in time will cause greater cracks with those around him - not least Burnham, who I suspect Lorca believes to be a kindred spirit (of course we know there's more to her than her mutiny)

As for Ash, I dunno; at first I thought him a Klingon spy too - the script made pains to highlight how unlikely his success against Klingons should be - but as the episode went on he displayed far too much social and emotional competence to be a spy; it would feel like a bit of a stretch to imagine any Klingon doppelganger to be so immediately aware and capable with all the various social niceties of the Federation.

spookwoman

pixelburp wrote: »

Yeah, I think having Lorca be a spy would completely undermine the whole arc of his character, not least this weeks episode and his tacit decision to leave the Admiral to her fate. This seemed more like the first true step towards his proper moral corruption, one that I suspect in time will cause greater cracks with those around him - not least Burnham, who I suspect Lorca believes to be a kindred spirit (of course we know there's more to her than her mutiny)

As for Ash, I dunno; at first I thought him a Klingon spy too - the script made pains to highlight how unlikely his success against Klingons should be - but as the episode went on he displayed far too much social and emotional competence to be a spy; it would feel like a bit of a stretch to imagine any Klingon doppelganger to be so immediately aware and capable with all the various social niceties of the Federation.

s01e04 The Butchers Knife Cares Not For the Lamb Voq says it's been 6 months since the battle with starfleet and they are almost operational again. It's at the end of that episode that he's told about a possible way to win. The next episode is where we first see Ash and when they are talking Lorca says its 7 months since the battle of the Binaries. 1 month would not give enough time to learn how to be human etc. The only other thing is he may have been turned by the Klingons

corkie

'Star Trek: Discovery': Is Captain Lorca From The Mirror Universe?

DivingDuck

Pros:

I really do like the uniforms, though it's going to take me a while to figure out the different grades and specialities on sight, which I think was a lot easier in other iterations. Someone in one of the other threads suggested there was a difference between the Fed and Starfleet, which might explain why there doesn't seem to be the usual three designations? The ship design internally is also good; it feels pre-TOS in a way that's still visually fresh and modern. I do love the small touches like the sounds that help to "date" the era, despite the obviously recent production.

I'm so glad Vulcan isn't blown up in this timeline! Its destruction was a big part of what really put me off the JJ Trek verse. I'm looking forward to seeing more of it.

The characters are really starting to be interesting. Lorca is amazing all round. Cutting off a superior officer mid-speech? Using sex as a distraction? He doesn't give a damn, and he's ice cold— his obvious relief that Admiral Eyebrows had been captured was chilling. I loved his "talk" with Tyler about Burnham, too. I'm worried about Stamets going nuts, but he's fun to watch until it happens, I guess? The conversation between the two of them and Burnham where she just raises a brow in response to the question of her craziness was great.

I really felt for Sarek having to choose between his children and obsessing over that choice for years. That was brilliant. Burnham's choice on how to deal with the matter was excellent, too. I'm definitely getting to like her a lot now.

I keep wondering if anyone from TOS or TNG is going to show up as a young 'un. Is Picard even born yet?

Cons:

Still want to choke myself every time Tilly is onscreen. Also, and I know this was an earlier episode, but: the f-word? I swear like a sailor myself, but it felt so, so wrong on a Trek show. Sorry, guys; everything about this character rubs me the wrong way.

I don't trust Tyler. At all. If anyone remembers a certain mid-90s Outer Limits episode about a captured space fleet captain, you might feel the same way...? My thinking is he's the White Walker White Klingon whose lady friend the spy taught him how to be human, and he's impersonating some poor guy they had captured?

The Klingons got less screen time this episode, though, so I was very pleased! Overall, this did a lot for the characters, and I'm wondering if my earlier predictions about how the short season would mean there wouldn't be a lot of time for character-driven episodes was rubbish. I would be delighted to be wrong on that front. Definitely getting to enjoy this show more and more with every episode aside the fairly dull first two.

Evade

DivingDuck wrote: »

I really do like the uniforms, though it's going to take me a while to figure out the different grades and specialities on sight

I really think they missed out on not having the TOS style rank braid where the braiding is on the shoulders of the STD uiforms.

DivingDuck wrote: »

Is Picard even born yet?

Not for another 50 or so years.

DivingDuck

Evade wrote: »

I really think they missed out on not having the TOS style rank braid where the braiding is on the shoulders of the STD uiforms.

Not for another 50 or so years.

Thanks— I don't know the year chronology off by heart, and I'm afraid to look anything up while I'm watching in case I get spoiled! I was mid-way through something a few weeks ago and went to google one of the actors to try to figure out where I knew her from.

The first result in the questions section was "How did [character] die in [series]?" :mad: Impossible not to see, and ruined the remaining episodes for me! Google really needs a spoilers mode...

As to the uniforms: I totally agree. So far all I can tell is that Admirals have gold down onto where the sleeve meets the shoulder also? Can't tell Ensign/Lieutenant/Commander/Captain apart at all, though. Maybe I'm just not watching closely enough?

I'll look it up when I've come to the end of the available episodes!

Evade

DivingDuck wrote: »

As to the uniforms: I totally agree. So far all I can tell is that Admirals have gold down onto where the sleeve meets the shoulder also? Can't tell Ensign/Lieutenant/Commander/Captain apart at all, though. Maybe I'm just not watching closely enough?

The rank is TNG style pips on the badge on the chest. The division is the other colour on the uniform and the colour of the badge. Gold for command, silver for science, and bronze for operations but they can be hard to tell apart at a glance or on background characters.

DivingDuck

Evade wrote: »

The rank is TNG style pips on the badge on the chest. The division is the other colour on the uniform and the colour of the badge. Gold for command, silver for science, and bronze for operations but they can be hard to tell apart at a glance or on background characters.

I did think I saw bronze once, but I wasn't sure if it was just gold in different lighting...! It's a lot more subdued than in previous shows, which I'm not really thrilled about. It was nice being able to tell rank and stream at a casual glance. The overall aesthetic is positive, though; small things like the chairs in the mess and the containment units have clearly had a lot of thought put into them, and do look quite cool.

Will be on the lookout for the pips— I noticed the Admiral had a very different badge, but hadn't clocked it in the others. Will keep a sharper eye out in future. Thank you!