Discovery 1x06 – "Lethe" [** SPOILERS **]

AMKC

Spear wrote: »

A cynical supposition:

it's been 4 episodes with Lorca and he's going off the rails fairly quickly.

And Jason Isaacs is the biggest name among the regular cast, and thus more expensive.

I wonder if he's only signed on for one season to help anchor the show, and thus will never see season 2.

I think there would be a lot of people on here very unhappy if that happened. As long as the show continues to do well I think he will be there and I think the show would lose a lot of fans if he did go. Besides the Captain goes down with her/his ship.

Spear

AMKC wrote: »

I think there would be a lot of people on here very unhappy if that happened. As long as the show continues to do well I think he will be there and I think the show would lose a lot of fans if he did go. Besides the Captain goes down with her/his ship.

Lorca's record on that ain't so great...

But his departure would lessen the show, but given the overall arc is planned it could already be a done thing.

smunchkins

Well talking about a possible mirror universe Lorca not knowing what is going on, wouldn't it be mad if he was a Klingon imposter/spy instead?
That would also fit the "reading up on files but not knowing personal stuff" theory Evade has.
Doubt it would fully pan out logically, but its interesting to watch the episodes with that in mind.

I really hope it turns out he isn't a Mirror Lorca. It would be great to see a Captain who seemed like they actually reacted to and felt stuff.

tromtipp

My reading of the last two episodes is that Stammets is being affected by the spores in a way that will let him access more than one reality, and that Lorca is from the mirror universe.

Is anyone else watching After Trek? I think the Tribbles in the background are doubling each week - giving 32 this week. By the end of the season Matt Mira is going to be swimming through them.

PhiloCypher

Spear wrote: »

A cynical supposition:

it's been 4 episodes with Lorca and he's going off the rails fairly quickly.

And Jason Isaacs is the biggest name among the regular cast, and thus more expensive.

I wonder if he's only signed on for one season to help anchor the show, and thus will never see season 2.

I pondered as much on reddit

r/StarTrekDiscovery
Is Jason Isaacs in this for the long haul ?

Between Discovery, OA and all the films he's got going on he's a busy man . He's the first Trek Captain who has had a busy film/tv career prior to taking the role, which begs the question how significant a role will he play in future seasons. Would he really have signed on for 6+ 15 episode seasons ?(or however many eps a season they're planning).

Bear with me . Lorca is unlike any captain we've ever had leading a trek show (yes I know Michael, strictly speaking, is the lead), he is very much in the Jellico mould , great in small doses but very much a war time captain and wars end . Imo the open conflict phase of this one will end after season one and we'll enter into a TOS style stalemate which will allow Discovery to become a show/ship of exploration instead of war. In such a scenario can anyone see Lorca as a peacetime captain seeking out new life and new civilisations and not vaporising them ? I can't , not the way he has been portrayed so far anyways.

In short has he been written as such a harsh and uncompromising character because they plan to :

A) Kill him off at the end of season 1 , maybe have him sacrifice himself in the battle that drives the Klingons to cease open hostilities, freeing Isaacs to pursue other projects .

His military genius sees him defeat the Klingons, driving them to cease hostilities in return for the federation banning spore travel, but it comes at great cost. He's stripped of his rank in disgrace and becomes a recurring Garth of Izeresque antagonist in future seasons.

C)he does the above but is promoted instead and becomes one of those morally compromised Admirals that we've seen in TNG/DS9 and becomes a recurring character .

Johnny Storm

Deleted User wrote: »

I really hope it turns out he isn't a Mirror Lorca. It would be great to see a Captain who seemed like they actually reacted to and felt stuff.

Good point. :pac:
If that is the case then how dark and amoral will the actual mirror-Lorca turn out to be?

Johnny Storm

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Good point. :pac:
If that is the case then how dark and amoral will the actual mirror-Lorca turn out to be?

It would be funny if this Lorca is the evil one and if we see a mirror one, they turn out to be lovely.

Goodshape

I've a feeling Burnham will redeem herself in the eyes of Starfleet and become captain of Discovery before/at the end of the season.

The character needs to go somewhere and I can't think of a better arc for her.

server down

Goodshape wrote: »

I've a feeling Burnham will redeem herself in the eyes of Starfleet and become captain of Discovery before/at the end of the season.

The character needs to go somewhere and I can't think of a better arc for her.

I expect she will be a captain alright, if they think her character works out.

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if Tilly becomes the Captain somehow. In the most recent episode she mentioned how she has it worked out already.

Optimus Prime

has anyone thought that maybe the captain was replaced with the Klingon dude that has to "sacrifice everything" from the previous ep? When he was in the prison, brought down to be tortured, he was instead having his genetics or whatever scanned so the Klingon could alter himself then replace him? So when he was brought back to the cell it was the Klingon not the captain?

The captain is still in the cell with Harry mud and maybe seperatly they escape which will bring mud back into the show again..

he escaped, pretty easily, and is now sleeping with a phaser, doesn't remember some stuff the other admiral was going on about, being with him is not the same as before etc..

Just speculating!

Optimus Prime

Optimus Prime wrote: »

has anyone thought that maybe the captain was replaced with the Klingon dude that has to "sacrifice everything" from the previous ep? When he was in the prison, brought down to be tortured, he was instead having his genetics or whatever scanned so the Klingon could alter himself then replace him? So when he was brought back to the cell it was the Klingon not the captain?

The captain is still in the cell with Harry mud and maybe seperatly they escape which will bring mud back into the show again..

he escaped, pretty easily, and is now sleeping with a phaser, doesn't remember some stuff the other admiral was going on about, being with him is not the same as before etc..

Just speculating!

Now that's interesting.

Mitch Connor

Spear wrote: »

A cynical supposition:

it's been 4 episodes with Lorca and he's going off the rails fairly quickly.

And Jason Isaacs is the biggest name among the regular cast, and thus more expensive.

I wonder if he's only signed on for one season to help anchor the show, and thus will never see season 2.

I reckon the season ends with Michael having to lead a mutiny against lorca. That will be what takes him out of future seasons, and i would say that has been signposted from the off.

Zillah

server down wrote: »

Yes. Ash got 36 kills. He lied and said 22 to not embarrass the captain - but the captain checked.

That whole scene pissed me off a little bit. Like, are these guys supposed to be the greatest warriors the universe has ever seen? Surely taking out a single Klingon in a battle is a big achievement; two or three makes you a champion. 36 is just straight into "the writers were playing Halo just before they wrote that scene" territory.

Johnny Storm

Deleted User wrote: »

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if Tilly becomes the Captain somehow....

Captain of the good ship Lollypop, maybe :P

PhiloCypher

Zillah wrote: »

That whole scene pissed me off a little bit. Like, are these guys supposed to be the greatest warriors the universe has ever seen? Surely taking out a single Klingon in a battle is a big achievement; two or three makes you a champion. 36 is just straight into "the writers were playing Halo just before they wrote that scene" territory.

Think you're mistaking the Klingons for Borg.

coffee_cake

Zillah wrote: »

That whole scene pissed me off a little bit. Like, are these guys supposed to be the greatest warriors the universe has ever seen? Surely taking out a single Klingon in a battle is a big achievement; two or three makes you a champion. 36 is just straight into "the writers were playing Halo just before they wrote that scene" territory.

Eh maybe they just had the holodeck on easy mode!

hal9550

bluewolf wrote: »

Eh maybe they just had the holodeck on easy mode!

:P:D:pac:

I have a strange image of Barclay emerging from a Holodeck Borg Combat simulation with 400+ kills.. Well done says Riker.. Without changing the settings he enters to see how difficult it was

Borg Drones run up to the Riker and shout 'WE ARE THE BORG YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED'.. and then begin to shove him gently.. One even places his hand on Rikers elbow.. On pushing back Riker finds the borg fall over in pain and self destruct

(im sorry its off topic but when i read that easy mode comment its what sprung to mind!)

AMKC

I like the theory some posters have suggested here that Lorca is actually a Klingon spy and Lorca is still in the Klingon prison because it did seem like he got out of there with Ash very easy. Done before with DR.Bashir in DS9 but a little different. It also makes more sense then why the Klingon spy that is Lorca had no problem sending the Admiral to negotiate as he probably knew it was a trap and she would be captured.

I also like the idea of Micheal becoming Captain of the Discovery but I have a different theory for that. What if she finds out that Lorca is actually a Klingon spy and has to kill him. She then goes to rescue the real Captain Lorca but finds out he is not at the Klingon Prison they thought he was at.

Optimus Prime

Yep that’s what I’m thinking. It’s lining up Michael finding out and having to mutiny again but the crew doesn’t believe her. My feeling is the girl she is room mates with is going to be killed and kick it off.

silverharp

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Yep that’s what I’m thinking. It’s lining up Michael finding out and having to mutiny again but the crew doesn’t believe her. My feeling is the girl she is room mates with is going to be killed and kick it off.

oh yes please, i hope redzer has a date with an open airlock :pac:

coffee_cake

what if tilly is the spy and her big personality is just a big cover!! oooo
:P

Evade

If Lorca is a spy* or from the mirror universe wouldn't that put Saru in charge? Leaving Burnham to re take the role of first officer as we were told the series would follow a first officer. That or Burnham will be killed and we can focus on Saru.

*Unlikely. One tricorder scan would show he's a Klingon like what happened in the Touble with Tribbles with Arne Darvin. I know, I know. I'm bringing up that pesky canon again.

AMKC

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Yep that’s what I’m thinking. It’s lining up Michael finding out and having to mutiny again but the crew doesn’t believe her. My feeling is the girl she is room mates with is going to be killed and kick it off.

Awe no I hope they don,t kill Tilly off.

silverharp wrote: »

oh yes please, i hope redzer has a date with an open airlock :pac:

Her name is Tilly.

Evade wrote: »

If Lorca is a spy* or from the mirror universe wouldn't that put Saru in charge? Leaving Burnham to re take the role of first officer as we were told the series would follow a first officer. That or Burnham will be killed and we can focus on Saru.

*Unlikely. One tricorder scan would show he's a Klingon like what happened in the Touble with Tribbles with Arne Darvin. I know, I know. I'm bringing up that pesky canon again.

Good point unless the Klingons have some way around it or its some sort of shapeshifter. After all Klingons might have come into contact with races that can shapeshift long before Humans did.

Evade

AMKC wrote: »

Good point unless the Klingons have some way around it or its some sort of shapeshifter. After all Klingons might have come into contact with races that can shapeshift long before Humans did.

I think that's not very likely given their xenophobic streak in STD.

Spear

More musings.

There's an endgame to this. The series is a planned out in advance thing, unlike past series, so there's an endgame this comes for this season at least.

So that spore drive needs to be made to go away.

And we've established Lorca likes to blow things up rather than let Klingons get their hands on it.

I suspect the latter may be the solution to the former.

But on the other hand, Burnham seems to be on the same track as she was on Shenzhou. She's gotten out of prison, back onto a ship, and now back onto the bridge. Not sure how that could factor into this.

But I do note the dark humour of Lorca's former and more exploded ship being named after the failed Soviet shuttle copy, as a parallel to Discovery, also bearing the name of a more successful and less explodey shuttle.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

If Lorca is a spy* or from the mirror universe wouldn't that put Saru in charge? Leaving Burnham to re take the role of first officer as we were told the series would follow a first officer. That or Burnham will be killed and we can focus on Saru.

*Unlikely. One tricorder scan would show he's a Klingon like what happened in the Touble with Tribbles with Arne Darvin. I know, I know. I'm bringing up that pesky canon again.

That's actually an interesting point. Have we seen Tribbles since Lorca came back?

hal9550

Spear wrote: »

More musings.

There's an endgame to this. The series is a planned out in advance thing, unlike past series, so there's an endgame this comes for this season at least.

So that spore drive needs to be made to go away.

And we've established Lorca likes to blow things up rather than let Klingons get their hands on it.

I suspect the latter may be the solution to the former.

But on the other hand, Burnham seems to be on the same track as she was on Shenzhou. She's gotten out of prison, back onto a ship, and now back onto the bridge. Not sure how that could factor into this.

But I do note the dark humour of Lorca's former and more exploded ship being named after the failed Soviet shuttle copy, as a parallel to Discovery, also bearing the name of a more successful and less explodey shuttle.

Great point on the shuttle metaphore.. totally missed that but well done on spotting it

I personally wouldnt like it if Lorca is from the mirrorverse for a number of reasons:

• It seems very likely that Ash is a klingon.. perhaps one metagenically converted into a human, as opposed to simple cosmetic surgery. Personally i feel one 'Bad guy in disguise' is enough
• I think it gets away from the nature of the case, in that Lorca is a damaged Captain after what has happened and is happening at the moment.. I think its more likely his experience on Buran have darkened his attitude away from the high rising morality of the UFP and more in line with Section 31s way of thinking

THAT SAID if he is mirrorverse than i think its safe to assume he has a mission:

Perhaps he was sent over to gather intel on the state of events in the prime-verse.. Perhaps to gather technological intelligence.. The empire has the defiant, and presumably have taken the time to analyze what has happened with the Klingons.. I dont believe for a second that Empress Sato deleted the historical files on the defiant so its safe to assume they are familiar with whats going on right now, having historical knowledge of the events of Discovery..

Did they say the Mirror universe will appear this season or at some point in the show?

Gotta be honest, I always felt they were the weakest episodes of the Trek franchises that did them.