Footballer of the Year

PARlance

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well more-so by virtue of the fact that he is the best player this season and thereby 100% deserves winning the award in question....


BTW, this 'split vote' thing. How does it work? How is this relevant to the county someone is from? Surely people just vote for who they think was the best and that is it? How do votes get split?

Ah look, I don't often agree with Blanch but he's giving it to Andy...with a little twist of lemon but I'm sure it wasn't easy. Be grateful or he'll be talking Cluxton again

Edit: too late

blanch152 wrote: »

Don't really mind if they do, don't think Cluxton for example would complain...

corny

Jesus some awful salty Mayo supporters upping their post count since the loss.

blanch152

kilns wrote: »

He bottled the most important two kicks of his year

It would be funny if Clarke got it though.

He was dropped for the replay last year, which cost Mayo the All-Ireland.
This year, two bad kickouts in a row cost Mayo the All-Ireland.

Maybe he should be the Dublin nominee for the position.

Buer

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

BTW, this 'split vote' thing. How does it work? How is this relevant to the county someone is from? Surely people just vote for who they think was the best and that is it? How do votes get split?

Because some people will want to vote for a player from a particular county rather than a particular player. For example, if Colm Boyle, Andy Moran and James McCarthy are the ones nominated you'll get a good chunk of people wanting to see Mayo rewarded for their season in some shape or form but they may not have a particular preference...some of them will vote for Boyle and some will vote for Moran.

Then the remaining people who think a Dublin player should win the award have only one option. It shouldn't be like that but it's human nature.

The same thing happens in every general election where parties decline to run more than one candidate in a constituency where they're not strong as they know they've a far better chance of having someone elected with only one option to vote for.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

Amazing post. How you can agree that Cluxton went 11/11 in the second half but then say that the Mayo management turned Cluxton's kickouts on their head!!! If the Mayo management strategy was so good, how come Cluxton went 11/11 and Dublin won? It is bizarre to suggest Mayo won that battle.

Eh, because they were going so badly that he was ordered to go short for the rest of the game (Sherlock moved faster than he ever did in 95!). Even you could kick 11/11 when it is sideways 10 yards to a free man...

Dyr

I'd imagine Moran will get the sympathy vote given that he's an old guy who had an Indian summer but lost again

Mannion the best forward this year for me, took some ridiculous scores

kilns

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

Amazing post. How you can agree that Cluxton went 11/11 in the second half but then say that the Mayo management turned Cluxton's kickouts on their head!!! If the Mayo management strategy was so good, how come Cluxton went 11/11 and Dublin won? It is bizarre to suggest Mayo won that battle.  

Eh, because they were going so badly that he was ordered to go short for the rest of the game (Sherlock moved faster than he ever did in 95!). Even you could kick 11/11 when it is sideways 10 yards to a free man...

and why didnt Mayo contest those kick outs? Because they knew if they pushed up Cluxton would ping it over their heads straight into a Dublin players arms and creating an attacking opportunity straight away.

kilns

I would argue Mannion has had a better year than Moran but as Moran was the guy who carried a team on his shoulders he will get it and the campaign will start too

edit: just saw above poster

MayoAreMagic

Buer wrote: »

Because some people will want to vote for a player from a particular county rather than a particular player. For example, if Colm Boyle, Andy Moran and James McCarthy are the ones nominated you'll get a good chunk of people wanting to see Mayo rewarded for their season in some shape or form but they may not have a particular preference...some of them will vote for Boyle and some will vote for Moran..

Then the remaining people who think a Dublin player should win the award have only one option. It shouldn't be like that but it's human nature.

What people are these though? It isn't open to the public. The type of person who only wants to vote for a county isn't going to have a vote...

Buer wrote: »

The same thing happens in every general election where parties decline to run more than one candidate in a constituency where they're not strong as they know they've a far better chance of having someone elected with only one option to vote for.

Not really like with like. This isn't a vote on policy or party etc. It is simply a question, who was the best player.

Shurimgreat

corny wrote: »

Jesus some awful salty Mayo supporters upping their post count since the loss.

And this is related to Footballer of the Year how?

kilns

and who do people reckon Young Player of the year will be . Con O'Callaghan has no real competition  i would suspect

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

What people are these though? It isn't open to the public. The type of person who only wants to vote for a county isn't going to have a vote...



Not really like with like. This isn't a vote on policy or party etc. It is simply a question, who was the best player.

You cannot remove the context of the team performance from the performance of the player.

If Tom Parsons and Seamie O'Shea had picked up injuries before the Kerry game and Mayo got wiped out with Moran not contributing, he wouldn't be in the conversation. It was the performance of the team around him that gave him the platform.

At the same time, his value-added contribution has to be significant so that he stands out ahead of his teammates. It is a bit of a paradox. If the team plays so well overall that his individual contribution gets lost in the general excellence of the team (say a Paul Mannion) then you won't get the prize. If the team doesn't play well enough, then you don't get to the crunch games and you won't get the prize.

If this was being done properly (and let's face it, it isn't being done properly) you would see a correlation between All-Stars and POTY. If a team doesn't win an All-Ireland but have an outstanding contributer who makes POTY, then they should only be able to pick up a small number of All-Stars because of the factors I outlined. We know from last year that it doesn't work out like that.

All of which comes back to the point that it isn't about the best player, it is about the media profile, the public perception and the quirks of the voting system etc. That is why I said Andy Moran is likely to get it.

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Eh, because they were going so badly that he was ordered to go short for the rest of the game (Sherlock moved faster than he ever did in 95!). Even you could kick 11/11 when it is sideways 10 yards to a free man...

I suppose I could kick 11/11 when it is sideways 10 yards to a free man.......pity Clarke couldn't.

blanch152

kilns wrote: »

and who do people reckon Young Player of the year will be . Con O'Callaghan has no real competition  i would suspect

Oh we don't want a Dub getting it, has to be David Clifford for his minor performance.

MayoAreMagic

kilns wrote: »

and why didnt Mayo contest those kick outs? Because they knew if they pushed up Cluxton would ping it over their heads straight into a Dublin players arms and creating an attacking opportunity straight away.

Cluxton got 11/11 because his long kickouts were so poor, he was told to go short. That is why 11/11 is no great feat. Change the subject all you want, but that was the point made, and it is 100% accurate.

Dyr

blanch152 wrote: »

I suppose I could kick 11/11 when it is sideways 10 yards to a free man.......pity Clarke couldn't.

Clarkes really good at kicking a ball sideways in fairness...

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

I suppose I could kick 11/11 when it is sideways 10 yards to a free man.......pity Clarke couldn't.

Why do you keep talking about Clarke when we are talking about Cluxton?

kilns

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

and why didnt Mayo contest those kick outs? Because they knew if they pushed up Cluxton would ping it over their heads straight into a Dublin players arms and creating an attacking opportunity straight away.

Cluxton got 11/11 because his long kickouts were so poor, he was told to go short. That is why 11/11 is no great feat. Change the subject all you want, but that was the point made, and it is 100% accurate.

Mayo went man for man and the tactic was to kick long and compete.  You know as well as everyone else, Cluxton is well capable of pinging it to a guy in space and that is what would happen if Mayo pushed up.  Or do you not think he is capable of it?

Martina1991

Bambi wrote: »

I'd imagine Moran will get the sympathy vote given that he's an old guy who had an Indian summer but lost again

Sympathy vote my arse. He had a fantastic year. He deserves to be nominated and has an excellent chance of winning it.

Buer

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

What people are these though? It isn't open to the public. The type of person who only wants to vote for a county isn't going to have a vote...

Not really. Players are human. Some are parochial, some aren't. Some are pre-disposed to wanting a certain county to succeed, some aren't. It's a very real factor when they vote on the nominees. It may not be the decisive but some votes will be split by it if 2 players are nominated from a single county.

This being a vote for a player by players doesn't change any of that. A lot of people voting won't have even stepped on a pitch this season with the nominees.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

You cannot remove the context of the team performance from the performance of the player.

If Tom Parsons and Seamie O'Shea had picked up injuries before the Kerry game and Mayo got wiped out with Moran not contributing, he wouldn't be in the conversation. It was the performance of the team around him that gave him the platform.

At the same time, his value-added contribution has to be significant so that he stands out ahead of his teammates. It is a bit of a paradox. If the team plays so well overall that his individual contribution gets lost in the general excellence of the team (say a Paul Mannion) then you won't get the prize. If the team doesn't play well enough, then you don't get to the crunch games and you won't get the prize.

If this was being done properly (and let's face it, it isn't being done properly) you would see a correlation between All-Stars and POTY. If a team doesn't win an All-Ireland but have an outstanding contributer who makes POTY, then they should only be able to pick up a small number of All-Stars because of the factors I outlined. We know from last year that it doesn't work out like that.

All of which comes back to the point that it isn't about the best player, it is about the media profile, the public perception and the quirks of the voting system etc. That is why I said Andy Moran is likely to get it.

You never said who these people are that get to vote, yet only vote based on the player's county and not their performances. Who are they?

Shurimgreat

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Why do you keep talking about Clarke when we are talking about Cluxton?

And why is he still posting on this thread when he said he didn't care about the award?

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Why do you keep talking about Clarke when we are talking about Cluxton?

I'm not being funny or anything, it was you who started comparing and told me that I could kick as well as Cluxton in the second half. I was pleased with your comparison and compared myself favourably to Clarke. I must also be better than that Kerry goalkeeper that kicked it over the end-line. Cluxton must be better than him too, having managed 11/11 without kicking one over the end-line.

Thanks again for the great compliment.

kilns

Buer wrote: »

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

What people are these though? It isn't open to the public. The type of person who only wants to vote for a county isn't going to have a vote...

Not really. Players are human. Some are parochial, some aren't. Some are pre-disposed to wanting a certain county to succeed, some aren't. It's a very real factor when they vote on the nominees. It may not be the decisive but some votes will be split by it if 2 players are nominated from a single county.

This being a vote for a player by players doesn't change any of that. A lot of people voting won't have even stepped on a pitch this season with the nominees.

Players are human also and some would have this in built dislike for Dublin and thats fair enough and it would decide who they vote for.  But Oisin McConville said it well, how could you hate Dublin they are the perfect Gaelic Football team who play football the right way

Shurimgreat

blanch152 wrote: »

I'm not being funny or anything, it was you who started comparing and told me that I could kick as well as Cluxton in the second half. I was pleased with your comparison and compared myself favourably to Clarke. I must also be better than that Kerry goalkeeper that kicked it over the end-line. Cluxton must be better than him too, having managed 11/11 without kicking one over the end-line.

Thanks again for the great compliment.

He missed 8/14 in the first half though.

MayoAreMagic

Buer wrote: »

Not really. Players are human. Some are parochial, some aren't. Some are pre-disposed to wanting a certain county to succeed, some aren't. It's a very real factor when they vote on the nominees. It may not be the decisive but some votes will be split by it if 2 players are nominated from a single county.

Wanting a county to succeed isn't relevant to an individual award though. For example, you lads are always saying it is 31 v 1 against Dublin, yet Dublin have 4 of the last 7 POTY awards. It doesn't add up.

I actually think it is a bit of an insult to gaa players to suggest that they are that biased that they wouldn't be honest enough to vote for the best player of that season.

Shurimgreat

The idea that Footballer of the Year should go to a goalie who can kick the ball sideways for 10 yards over someone as brilliant and as skillful as Andy Moran is frankly laughable and ludicrous.

Even in victory, some Dubs are sore losers!

kilns

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Buer wrote: »

Not really. Players are human. Some are parochial, some aren't. Some are pre-disposed to wanting a certain county to succeed, some aren't. It's a very real factor when they vote on the nominees. It may not be the decisive but some votes will be split by it if 2 players are nominated from a single county.

Wanting a county to succeed isn't relevant to an individual award though. For example, you lads are always saying it is 31 v 1 against Dublin, yet Dublin have 4 of the last 7 POTY awards. It doesn't add up.

I actually think it is a bit of an insult to gaa players to suggest that they are that biased that they wouldn't be honest enough to vote for the best player of that season.

Well sometimes its hard to ignore certain players
Take Colm Parkinson as an example he despises Dublin
Its natural and an accepted part of life but not all hate Dublin

kilns

Anyway how I see it going
1. Andy Moran
2. James McCarthy
3. Paul Mannion

YPOTY
1. Con O'Callaghan
2. ?????

MayoAreMagic

kilns wrote: »

Players are human also and some would have this in built dislike for Dublin and thats fair enough and it would decide who they vote for. But Oisin McConville said it well, how could you hate Dublin they are the perfect Gaelic Football team who play football the right way

So just to be clear; mcconville - a former gaa player - doesn't hate Dublin and praises their play. And that proves that players hate Dublin...

kilns

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

Players are human also and some would have this in built dislike for Dublin and thats fair enough and it would decide who they vote for.  But Oisin McConville said it well, how could you hate Dublin they are the perfect Gaelic Football team who play football the right way

So just to be clear; mcconville - a former gaa player - doesn't hate Dublin and praises their play. And that proves that players hate Dublin...

Eh I just said not all do, some can appreciate a team playing the game the way it should be played but others will have a natural chip on their shoulders.
Like can you admit Dublin play great football and are good to watch?

Buer

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Wanting a county to succeed isn't relevant to an individual award though. For example, you lads are always saying it is 31 v 1 against Dublin, yet Dublin have 4 of the last 7 POTY awards. It doesn't add up.

I actually think it is a bit of an insult to gaa players to suggest that they are that biased that they wouldn't be honest enough to vote for the best player of that season.

I think you're very naive, in that case. People will gladly use their vote to reward a county for their season. They're not robots. We're all influenced by similar things every day in terms of our preferences. They may not even do so explictly or consciously.

I'm not saying anything about it being 31 vs 1 or this being about Dublin. You're bringing that into the conversation. I'm saying it's about 2 options from a county against 1 option from another.

ThunbergsAreGo

Don't think anyone will argue with Andy Moran but surprised O Callaghan isn't mentioned more.

Two potential goal of the year contenders in his counties two biggest games and a higher points per game despite playing arguably superior opposition (Dublin played 4 of next year's Division One teams on the way, more than any other team)

Maybe it's the easier one to give him Young Player of the Year

Shurimgreat

And Dublin followers accuse us of conspiracy theories

Jesus lads, if AM wins it, wish him well and stop making excuses. Its pathetic at this stage

MayoAreMagic

kilns wrote: »

Eh I just said not all do, some can appreciate a team playing the game the way it should be played but others will have a natural chip on their shoulders.
Like can you admit Dublin play great football and are good to watch?

Well obviously a voting majority need to. So 34ish%, and that is assuming the other two are a dead heat at 33% each. This is starting to sound like that 9-11 conspiracy, where they investigated to find that something like 5,000 people would need to be in on it for it to happen...

I think Dublin are a great team. Why do you need me to praise them before you can give a bit on this ludicrous notion about split voting though? Just call it straight in the first place.

kilns

Exactly, he will taken out of the equation as Young Player is sown up.  Would definitely deserve senior player of the year too

MayoAreMagic

Buer wrote: »

I think you're very naive, in that case. People will gladly use their vote to reward a county for their season. They're not robots. We're all influenced by similar things every day in terms of our preferences. They may not even do so explictly or consciously.

I'm not saying anything about it being 31 vs 1 or this being about Dublin. You're bringing that into the conversation. I'm saying it's about 2 options from a county against 1 option from another.

Intercounty footballers? I think you underestimate their intelligence and honesty to be honest with you.
The 31 v 1 thing gets peddled often, yet 5 of the last 7 POTY awards went to Dublin players. Surely if people vote on county all the time and I am naïve on the topic, then they wouldn't be getting these POTY awards? One contradicts the other.

kilns

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

Eh I just said not all do, some can appreciate a team playing the game the way it should be played but others will have a natural chip on their shoulders.
Like can you admit Dublin play great football and are good to watch?

Well obviously a voting majority need to. So 34ish%, and that is assuming the other two are a dead heat at 33% each. This is starting to sound like that 9-11 conspiracy, where they investigated to find that something like 5,000 people would need to be in on it for it to happen...

I think Dublin are a great team. Why do you need me to praise them before you can give a bit on this ludicrous notion about split voting though? Just call it straight in the first place.

I never mention split voting.  It is just human nature to vote for someone who had disappointment this year and give them a consolation prize and that is why Andy Moran will win, if you dont believe that you are very naiive. I think that is the main point people are trying to get across over the last few pages

jr86

kilns wrote: »

Anyway how I see it going
1. Andy Moran
2. James McCarthy
3. Paul Mannion

YPOTY
1. Con O'Callaghan
2. ?????

Michael Daly galway would be second looks like he'll go on to become a very important player for them

MayoAreMagic

Shurimgreat wrote: »

And Dublin followers accuse us of conspiracy theories

Jesus lads, if AM wins it, wish him well and stop making excuses. Its pathetic at this stage

Im just enjoying picking out this faux logic being used to explain why Moran, the standout candidate to win the POTY award, is beating Dublin player X, Y and Z to said award, rather than just deserving to win it, like O'Callaghan in the YPOTY. I mean the fact that they aren't even suggesting the same Dublin player among themselves undermines their own argument completely.

seligehgit

Bambi wrote: »

I'd imagine Moran will get the sympathy vote given that he's an old guy who had an Indian summer but lost again

Mannion the best forward this year for me, took some ridiculous scores[/QUOTE]

Mannion for me has been Dublin's stand out player this year.When it was needed at the start of the second half he stood up and caused untold problems.

Not sure whom mentioned the minimal impact McManamon,now that's laughable.He was exceptional and caused untold problems.He had far more impact than his more illustrious team mate Diarmuid Connolly.

The bench undoubtedly won the game for Dublin.We ran out of legs,simple as.Laughable the notion we bottled it,our bench is not comparable to that of the Dubs.Donie's sending off was crucial as outside the fact we would have been a man up,on quite a warm where fresh legs would be crucial it allowed Cluxton to pick his men with a stretched game and greater space to place his kickouts.

As mentioned it is frankly insulting to hear it repeated that Dublin didn't turn up for final like last year.They were only allowed play as well as our guys allowed them to do so.

Have to no intention of watching the game back for many months.

Why did we lose the game?Another early goal concession with too many steps taken?The game was probably lost in the first half with some relatively poor wides.A paltry one point lead was scant reward for our dominance.

The sending offs,the change in personnel ensured that Dublin ran at us very successfully in the second half.The missed goal chance,although Rock should equally have buried his.The misses by Andy,Aidan and Cillian's missed chance.Not a Mayo man there anticipating the rebound.

The unfortunate final two kickouts,pressure does crazy things.

Very proud of the lads though,they left nothing out there.

MayoAreMagic

kilns wrote: »

I never mention split voting. It is just human nature to vote for someone who had disappointment this year and give them a consolation prize and that is why Andy Moran will win, if you dont believe that you are very naiive. I think that is the main point people are trying to get across over the last few pages

If that is the case then why have only a couple of non all Ireland winners won the award? :P

Moran will win it because he deserves to.
I believe you can muster the strength to choke out that sentence for yourself. But then again, I am naive

kilns

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Shurimgreat wrote: »

And Dublin followers accuse us of conspiracy theories

Jesus lads, if AM wins it, wish him well and stop making excuses. Its pathetic at this stage

Im just enjoying picking out this faux logic being used to explain why Moran, the standout candidate to win the POTY award, is beating Dublin player X, Y and Z to said award, rather than just deserving to win it, like O'Callaghan in the YPOTY. I mean the fact that they aren't even suggesting the same Dublin player among themselves undermines their own argument completely.

I think if it softens the blow after Sunday for mayoaremagic I think everyone should just agree with him on Andy Moran and not debate it.

kilns

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

I never mention split voting.  It is just human nature to vote for someone who had disappointment this year and give them a consolation prize and that is why Andy Moran will win, if you dont believe that you are very naiive. I think that is the main point people are trying to get across over the last few pages

If that is the case then why have only a couple of non all Ireland winners won the award? :P

Moran will win it because he deserves to.
I believe you can muster the strength to choke out that sentence for yourself. But then again, I am naive

because it only went to a players vote in recent times, it was done along with the All Stars which are shambles, giving token all stars out here and there. 
Moran had a good year and is a contender but the way you shoot down everyone else who suggests he might not win, shows a certain amount of tunnel vision but you can have your POTY award again but to be honest I know what any player would rather have and thats an All Ireland medal

MayoAreMagic

kilns wrote: »

I think if it softens the blow after Sunday for mayoaremagic I think everyone should just agree with him on Andy Moran and not debate it.

Well if 'everyone', i.e. you and two other dubs, could piece together a valid counter argument that wasn't bordering on a carry-on film, you wouldn't have to man.

kilns

I dont why I am debating with you but a case has been made for Mannion and O'Callaghan so broaden your mind a little and accept arguments for and against, nobody is debating that Andy Moran had a great year but people are suggesting others had great years too but you refuse to accept it.
Good luck to you

MayoAreMagic

kilns wrote: »

because it only went to a players vote in recent times, it was done along with the All Stars which are shambles, giving token all stars out here and there.
Moran had a good year and is a contender but the way you shoot down everyone else who suggests he might not win, shows a certain amount of tunnel vision but you can have your POTY award again but to be honest I know what any player would rather have and thats an All Ireland medal

'Recent times' - when exactly?

Im actually just shooting down the frankly, laughable logic being pushed that if a dub doesn't win it will be down to 'split voting', despite the fact that the concept is not applicable to the voting system in place. Not to mention it being a bit of an insult to players in general. If not that then some other reason - basically anything but accept that a player from another county had a better season. It is painfully cringe-worthy.

The reality is, some lads are just fanboys who think their lads should win everything, and whenever they don't it is just a conspiracy, or 31 v 1 or whatever else.

PARlance

seligehgit wrote: »

The misses by Andy,Aidan and Cillian's missed chance.Not a Mayo man there anticipating the rebound.

I was just looking back a text that I sent a friend on July 31st, the day after the Roscommon game.

Cillian had a long free towards the end and it was going to drop short more often than not. Not a sinner was there to anticipate it. Fine margins. Possibly the fear of losing overcoming the willingness to win.

Fine margins. I hate fine margins.

ThunbergsAreGo

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

If that is the case then why have only a couple of non all Ireland winners won the award? :P

Moran will win it because he deserves to.
I believe you can muster the strength to choke out that sentence for yourself. But then again, I am naive

I think the qualifiers lend themselves more to non All Ireland winners winning it.

Mayo have had a great journey and Moran has been part of that. If Mayo had not lost to Galway it might be a different story on POTY as more games means more memories and chances to impress

Moran has been very good across a number of games all be it alot if them vs inferior teams. He would be a deserved winner but so would a few of the Dublin players

Crash Bang Wall

kilns wrote: »

I dont why I am debating with you but a case has been made for Mannion and O'Callaghan so broaden your mind a little and accept arguments for and against, nobody is debating that Andy Moran had a great year but people are suggesting others had great years too but you refuse to accept it.
Good luck to you

To be fair, had Dublin been missing any of their starting 15, they would have got to the All Ireland Final and quite possibly won it.

Had Mayo been missing Andy Moran, they wouldnt have got anywhere near an All Ireland Final.

Thats why Andy Moran should get Player of the Year