Anti-vaxxers

PeadarCo

Amantine wrote:

If I was afraid to say anything out loud I wouldn't be on here but keep putting words into my mouth. Are you sure you don't work for Merk?

Companies make money out of vaccines and medicine in general and this is supposed to be news?

I presume based on this you are quite happy to work for free. However the vast vast majority of people who work in the pharma industry whether it be people on the production line, to the scientists who develop the medicine don't. Some of them cost a lot to employee.

You also have to remember developing any new medicine is costly in both time and money. I don't have a link to hand but only somewhere in the region of 1 in 10 drugs make it to market and that's after 10/15 years of development. So obviously it's extremely risky. When you factor all that in any pharmaceutical not making money will go out of business very quickly and with the them the medicines they make.

Seth Brundle

Amantine wrote: »

If I was afraid to say anything out loud I wouldn't be on here but keep putting words into my mouth. Are you sure you don't work for Merk? You are boosting their profits with every post.

"Merck & Co Inc reported higher-than-expected first-quarter profit on Tuesday on increased demand for vaccines...
Gardasil, a vaccine for preventing cancers associated with human papillomavirus, powered much of the earnings beat, helped by higher vaccination rates in Europe, while other vaccines, such as the company's measles shot, also helped results."

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1S616K?__twitter_impression=true

Your logic is arseways!
You seem to think that the fact that a company make profits means that what they produce doesn't work?
Vaccines have been shown to work!

They just can't cure stupidity!

Amantine

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Presumably Chemo, insulin, antibiotics, statins, analgesics and beta blockers amongst others also helped their profits? Do we decide what we should or shouldn't use because a pharmaceutical company profits?

Tom Mann Centuria

Amantine wrote: »

....

That doesn't answer my question. They also make money on the mediations I listed, do you object to those medications because they make money from them?

ancapailldorcha

Are we really going to see this dumping nonsense again? There's no evidence that that email is even real.

ToBeFrank123

Amantine wrote: »

If I was afraid to say anything out loud I wouldn't be on here but keep putting words into my mouth. Are you sure you don't work for Merk? You are boosting their profits with every post.

"Merck & Co Inc reported higher-than-expected first-quarter profit on Tuesday on increased demand for vaccines...
Gardasil, a vaccine for preventing cancers associated with human papillomavirus, powered much of the earnings beat, helped by higher vaccination rates in Europe, while other vaccines, such as the company's measles shot, also helped results."

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1S616K?__twitter_impression=true

Lol, more muddying the waters.

And note the progression from being a wee bit sceptical to full blown anti vaxxer conspiracy theorist in a few short days. Laughable. All you anti vaxxers are the same, gradually seeking to sow doubt. Its like there is an anti vaxxer playbook or something.

If I was you, I'd be on my knees thanking big pharma. If it wasn't for them, the average life expectancy would be something like 50 years old with most people dying from easily preventable diseases which are today vaccinated against thanks in large part to "Big Pharma".

And no I don't work for them, but I've enough cop on to know they've got far more things right than wrong, unlike you.

Amantine

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Are we really going to see this dumping nonsense again? There's no evidence that that email is even real.

Very good point! Let's have a link then:

https://www.pbahealth.com/vaccine-co-administration/

ToBeFrank123

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Are we really going to see this dumping nonsense again? There's no evidence that that email is even real.

Who knows if its real or not, but its another tactic from the playbook which usually goes as follows:

1. Start small, say vaccines are a good thing in general but there's doubts about some side effects
2. Question if someone works for merck, etc
3. Gradually introduce the conspiracy theories
4. Go full blown conspiracy theory, eg vaccines are a method of population control, etc.

I wish they would just jump to step 4 from the start and save us all the trouble.

ancapailldorcha

Amantine wrote: »

Very good point! Let's have a link then:

https://www.pbahealth.com/vaccine-co-administration/

Right. Presumably you have the same gripes about all privately made goods and privately provided services if turning a profit is such a bad thing.

Dohnjoe

It's telling how anti-vaxxers don't mention net benefits when parading their "appeal to motive" fallacies

According to one study it's estimated "that fully immunizing babies resulted in $10 saved for every dollar spent, about $69 billion total. " While another study estimated in the US alone that "between 1994 and 2013 estimated a net savings of $295 billion in direct costs and $1.38 trillion in total societal costs"

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/02/vaccines-are-profitable-so-what/385214/

Amantine

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Right. Presumably you have the same gripes about all privately made goods and privately provided services if turning a profit is such a bad thing.

I have no problem with goods and services making profit but one would have to be very naive to think a conflict of interests (billions of $) would never put public health at risk.

"Pharmaceutical companies fund the vast majority of the clinical research that is undertaken on medications but face a conflict of interest between producing good science and results that will enhance the sales of their products.

RESULTS:
Bias in favour of industry is apparent in every one of the themes examined with the result that research funded by industry undermines confidence in medical knowledge.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23135338
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21327723

ancapailldorcha

Amantine wrote: »

I have no problem with goods and services making profit but one would have to be very naive to think a conflict of interests (billions of $) would never put public health at risk.

We're all aware that companies, especially large corporations lobby governments.

Nobody has said that this has never put public health at risk. This is a strawman. It is also a poor substitute for empirical evidence proving the harmfulness of vaccines.

ToBeFrank123

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In other words, vaccine sells and manufacturer makes money.

Yep, just ignores hundreds of years of science that tells us vaccines work.

What I don't like is how they try to introduce conspiracy theories into this. Most conspiracy theories are harmless, eg 9/11, who shot JFK, moon landing.

But conspiracy theories around vaccines are not and can have potentially fatal consequences for vulnerable people.

Amantine

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

We're all aware that companies, especially large corporations lobby governments.

Nobody has said that this has never put public health at risk. This is a strawman.

Hi ancapailldorcha! You are correct about the lobbying! Well done! (We keep agreeing, we have so much in common!) Wrong about it not putting public health at risk though, but I suspect you know this anyway, you're not that stupid.


"...drug distributors or pharmacies recklessly dispensing the opioid painkillers at the heart of the epidemic, which claims more than 100 lives a day.

Hundreds of millions of dollars flow to lobbyists and politicians on Capitol Hill each year to shape laws and policies that keep drug company profits growing. The pharmaceutical industry, which has about two lobbyists for every member of Congress, spent $152m on influencing legislation in 2016"

source:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/19/big-pharma-money-lobbying-us-opioid-crisis

ancapailldorcha

The patronising language doesn't help. I see you're back to the Gish Galloping again. This thread is about vaccines, not opioids and we don't live in the US so that's not relevant here.

ToBeFrank123

Everything big pharma does is evil. We get it. Even when they come up with vaccines for zika, ebola, measles, smallpox, and medicines that help in every possible way from simple medicines like aspirin up to the most advanced. All evil.

The alternative of course according to anti vaxxers is returning to natural medicines which were mainstream during the stone age. Even the Greeks recognised the value of modern medicine and started us on the path to doctors, hospitals and medical science.

Mr. CooL ICE

Amantine wrote: »

Hi ancapailldorcha! You are correct about the lobbying! Well done! (We keep agreeing, we have so much in common!) Wrong about it not putting public health at risk though, but I suspect you know this anyway, you're not that stupid.

Mod: These childish, passive aggressive ad hominems will get you nowhere. No more of this. Last warning.

Amantine

Mark Rippetoe wrote: »

Mod: These childish, passive aggressive ad hominems will get you nowhere. No more of this. Last warning.

Why is is ok when it comes from a mod but not from a regular user? So much for freedom of speech! I'll take it as a compliment, since I'm such a threat that you feel the need to ban me to shut me up.

Timberrrrrrrr

Amantine wrote: »

Why is is ok when i come from a mod but not from a regular user? So much of freedom of speech! I'll take it as a compliment, since I'm such a threat that you feel the need to ban me to shut me up.

Here we go :rolleyes:

ohnonotgmail

Amantine wrote: »

Why is is ok when it comes from a mod but not from a regular user? So much for freedom of speech! I'll take it as a compliment, since I'm such a threat that you feel the need to ban me to shut me up.

We can't handle the truth, amirite?

Mr. CooL ICE

Amantine wrote: »

Why is is ok when it comes from a mod but not from a regular user? So much of freedom of speech! I'll take it as a compliment, since I'm such a threat that you feel the need to ban me to shut me up.

Mod:

1) As per AH charter, do not discuss mod actions on thread. Let this be the end of it. PM me if you want clarification.
2) There is no freedom of speech on boards.ie. Boards is a privately owned website.

Seth Brundle

Amantine wrote: »

Hi ancapailldorcha! You are correct about the lobbying! Well done! (We keep agreeing, we have so much in common!) Wrong about it not putting public health at risk though, but I suspect you know this anyway, you're not that stupid.

Can you link to one peer reviewed study that shows a health risk caused by an MMR vaccine?

iamwhoiam

I thank god for pharma companies that keep two young members of my family alive with insulin .

Amantine

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Can you link to one peer reviewed study that shows a health risk caused by an MMR vaccine?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0162013411002212
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X16304400
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X17308763

ancapailldorcha

Amantine wrote: »

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0162013411002212
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X16304400
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X17308763

Did you even read these? The first one is simply correlation as one would expect as both the number of vaccines available and the tools for diagnosing autism have improved.

Edit: Nevermind. Lucija Tomljenovic and Christopher Shaw are anti-vaxxer shills who have had to retract papers:

https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/christopher-shaw-and-lucija-tomljenovic-anti-vaccine

The third paper has notorious anti-vaxxer shill Chris Exley as the PI.

ancapailldorcha

Lead author of the second link is Mark Geier, another shill. You realize that we can just google the author's names in this day and age and find this out quickly, right?

Edit: It gets worse. Looks like the Geiers are responsible for chemically castrating autistic kids via their Lupron protocol. I don't know why Amantine thinks these people are suitable sources of information.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/chemical-castration-of-autistic-children-leads-to-the-downfall-of-dr-mark-geier/

Amantine

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Did you even read these? The first one is simply correlation as one would expect as both the number of vaccines available and the tools for diagnosing autism have improved.

Edit: Nevermind. Lucija Tomljenovic and Christopher Shaw are anti-vaxxer shills who have had to retract papers:

https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/christopher-shaw-and-lucija-tomljenovic-anti-vaccine

The third paper has notorious anti-vaxxer shill Chris Exley as the PI.

The paper states:
'By satisfying eight of the Hill's criteria for establishing causality applicable to our study (Table 9), we show that Al-adjuvanted vaccines may be a significant etiological factor in the rising prevalence of ASD in the Western world. We also show that children from countries with the highest ASD prevalence appear to have a much higher exposure to Al from vaccines, particularly at 2 months of age. In addition, the correlation between ASD prevalence and Al adjuvant exposure appears to be the highest at 3–4 months of age."
These papers have not been retracted, are peer reviewed and by well regarded scientists.
skepticalraptor is a blogger.

ancapailldorcha

Skepticalraptor is indeed a blogger. He formulates his own arguments and sources them. No wonder you hate him so much.

Respectable scientists do not need to retract multiple papers. Exley and the Geiers are shills and worse who have inflicted horrific suffering on autistic children. Seems to be a theme among anti-vaxxer idols for some reason.

Amantine

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Respectable scientists do not need to retract multiple papers. Exley and the Geiers are shills and worse who have inflicted horrific suffering on autistic children. Seems to be a theme among anti-vaxxer idols for some reason.

Lies! Scientist don't benefit from linking vaccines with health problems, the pharmaceuticals however make billions!! It's also the pharmaceutical companies that have inflicted suffering for years all over the world to thousands of kids, for over 80 years including in Ireland:
"Revelations in the years that followed showed Wellcome-sponsored trials in Ireland spanned almost half a century and involved dozens of institutions and thousands of children.

Despite this, the company itself has only acknowledged four such trials."
https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/vaccine-trials-unravelling-the-drug-trials-scandal-430889.html

Orion

Amantine wrote: »

I have no problem with goods and services making profit but one would have to be very naive to think a conflict of interests (billions of $) would never put public health at risk.

And I'm sure the likes of Mercola and Wakefield are selling their snakeoil and lies purely for altruistic purposes.