Anti-vaxxers

Seth Brundle

Amantine wrote: »

Thank you. Again, we don't even know what thousands of kids were subjected to in the mother and baby homes because Glaxosmithkline was using them as guinea pigs. There is a mass grave after all. Cut the crap with Wakefield, we know who the real abusers are! Did Glaxosmithkline ever offer any kind of compensation? No, the documents disappeared and people born as late as the 70s will never know what was done to them.

This is whataboutery which nobody is defending.
Whatever unethical practices were performed does not remove the simple fact that vaccines such as the MMR vaccine have been shown to work through trials with thousands of patients (under the monitoring of thousands of independent doctors).
You refuse to accept the evidence in the same way that some idiots refuse to accept that the world is not flat. However unlike the flat earthers, what you tell people is actually dangerous!

Capt'n Midnight

Igotadose wrote: »

It's like we've reached peak loony here.

Amantine wrote: »

Did you say aluminium-like? Are all metals the same now? Why not inject lead or cadmium? My whole point is that all this is very complex and that science doesn't have all the answers. Also "mainlining" is used for narcotics.

Did you say aluminium-like?
Yes, you ignored the bit about the periodic table.
Evidence was presented to you and rejected. You also didn't look it up and comment on it so asking the same of others is beneath contempt.


Are all metals the same now?
Yes as everybody knows, they are all non-toxic, non-corrosive, liquids at body temperature :rolleyes:
apart from every single one that isn't that unique element.



Why not inject lead or cadmium?
This is such a contrived question it's not even bait and switch.
Because ONLY YOU mentioned those HEAVY metals to muddy the water.
Also they are solid.

Technically you could inject a mixture of sodium and potassium. Both are essential for human life. Not recommended though.



My whole point is that all this is very complex
Stock phrase. Pretending to be ignorant and wearing as a badge of pride ?

It's not complex. Vaccines are a very safe way of averting a higher risk. Statistics out the wazoo. Hundreds of millions of lives saved. Before we could ban vaccines on safety grounds we'd have to ban motor cars and exposure to sunshine.


and that science doesn't have all the answers.
Scraping the bottom of the BS barrel there.

Q. What is the name for the process of looking for all the answers ?

A. SCIENCE !



Also "mainlining" is used for narcotics
And trains. Do you like trains ? I like trains.

CosmicFool

The problem with most people is they tend to think emotionally rather than logically especially when it comes to things they do not and cannot comprehend so we have gullible people believing the **** that Wakefield & his ilk have started and for whatever insane reason that Amantine continues with on here.

I do believe that some pharma companies have done themselves no favours along with governments for letting this happen with the growing amount of scandals we hear about and the distrust people have for them because of it.

However, you cannot deny the scientific evidence to back up the effectiveness of vaccines such as MMR. ( I'm sure Amantine will deny this and start spouting absolute bull****)

Orion

Amantine wrote: »

Why is it that measles is such a big deal but superbugs or fungus like candida auris, which actually cause deaths, don't get advertised?

Are you saying that people don't die from measles?

You're as wrong in this as in everything else you've said.

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2019/0304/1034215-measles-health/

waxmoth

Gallium has been used to demonstrate the mechanism of brain exposure to aluminium and the regions of greatest accumulation broadly correspond to affected areas of autistic brains.

Results show that 67Ga was bound to plasma transferrin, entered the brain with a blood‐brain barrier permeability of 2.48 X 10‐6 ml/min/g, and showed a marked regional distribution that was very similar to that of 125I‐Fe‐transferrin receptors. Our data suggest that the vulnerability of the hippocampus, amygdala, and cerebral cortex in conditions such as those mentioned above may be partly due to an increased uptake and deposition of aluminium in these regions by the iron transport system. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1471-4159.1990.tb08846.x

Kemper and Bauman reviewed whole brain serial sections of six autistic cases and demonstrated an increased cell packing density and reduced cell size in hippocampus, subiculum and amygdalae. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00234-009-0583-y

Given that mitochondrial dysfunction can be associated with autism, the evidence that high brain aluminium has an effect on mitochondrial activity implicates aluminium in at least a proportion of cases.

An Al-dependent oxidative environment is also characterized by a sharp decrease in mitochondrial activity (Han et al. 2013). Specifically, Al3+ disrupts mitochondrial bioenergetics and decreases the respiratory efficiency and the capacity of the mitochondria to modulate and control the energy production through the phosphorylation
system (Iglesias-González et al. 2016). https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780444626271000111

Overall, this evidence supports the notion that mitochondrial dysfunction is associated with ASD. Additional studies are needed to further define the role of mitochondrial dysfunction in ASD. https://www.nature.com/articles/mp2010136

With the apparent exponential rise in incidence all research in areas such as this should be encouraged.

CosmicFool

waxmoth wrote: »

Gallium has been used to demonstrate the mechanism of brain exposure to aluminium and the regions of greatest accumulation broadly correspond to affected areas of autistic brains.
Given that mitochondrial dysfunction can be associated with autism, the evidence that high brain aluminium has an effect on mitochondrial activity implicates aluminium in at least a proportion of cases.

With the apparent exponential rise in incidence all research in areas such as this should be encouraged.

I think you've posted in the wrong thread. this is about vaccines.

Orion

waxmoth wrote: »

lots of big words

So this is to link vaccines to autism. Even the most rabid antivaxxers only say the MMR causes autism (based on Mr. Wakefield's completely discredited and retracted fraudulent "study")

So let's be clear here.

Aluminium is used in vaccines as an adjuvant. Adjuvants increase the effectiveness of vaccines which means a lower does of the vaccine is needed. Even antivaxxers should approve of that.

But it is not used in live vaccines such as the MMR. At all. Live vaccines such as the MMR don't need it and don't have it.

And let's be absolutely clear here - vaccines do not cause autism. I'll repeat that for those in the cheap seats. VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTIUSM.

And as for aluminium itself? Don't like it? You better stop eating fruit, vegetables, cereals. Stop drinking wine and beer. Don't use stainless steel pots. Never drink out of a can. We take in about 8mg a day of aluminium just from our normal diets.

Amantine

waxmoth wrote: »

Gallium has been used to demonstrate the mechanism of brain exposure to aluminium and the regions of greatest accumulation broadly correspond to affected areas of autistic brains.
Given that mitochondrial dysfunction can be associated with autism, the evidence that high brain aluminium has an effect on mitochondrial activity implicates aluminium in at least a proportion of cases.

With the apparent exponential rise in incidence all research in areas such as this should be encouraged.

Yes, autoimmune diseases like type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, Hashimoto’s thyroid disease, multiple sclerosis, inflammatory bowel disease (Crohn’s disease and ulcerative colitis), celiac disease, asthma and chronic fatigue syndrome are on the rise. There has been a sharp rise, especially in younger people. At present autoimmunity is the third most common category of illness in the United States after cancer and heart disease.

paddar

Amantine wrote: »

Yes, autoimmune diseases and chronic fatigue syndrome are on the rise, there has been a sharp rise especially in younger people.

Know what else is on the rise? Preventable diseases such as measles, if only there was some sort of readily available solution to that....

Also I don't know why you are throwing autoimmune diseases and chronic fatigue syndrome into the mix. Unless you were disingenuously trying to muddy the waters and you wouldn't do that to us. Would you?

Amantine

paddar wrote: »

Know what else is on the rise? Preventable diseases such as measles, if only there was some sort of readily available solution to that....

Also I don't know why you are throwing autoimmune diseases and chronic fatigue syndrome into the mix. Unless you were disingenuously trying to muddy the waters and you wouldn't do that to us. Would you?

Because we were talking about the evidence that high brain aluminium has an effect on mitochondrial activity and I have first hand experience of chronic fatigue syndrome. More and more people are reporting feeling tired all the time - which is not the same as CFS but one has to ask where all these health problem are coming from.

paddar

Amantine wrote: »

Because we were talking about the evidence that high brain aluminium has an effect on mitochondrial activity and I have first hand experience of chronic fatigue syndrome. More and more people are reporting feeling tired all the time - which is not the same as CFS but one has to ask where all these health problem are coming from.

The problem is that you are conflating multiple questions and switching to a different question when you don’t approve of the answer. That is pretty much the opposite of science. Let’s stick with one question that you seem focused on and one that we can test, Is aluminum in the MMR vaccine associated with autism or CFS? The answer as pointed out by Orion is definitely no and easy to prove since MMR and other live vaccines do not have aluminum as an ingredient since it is not needed as adjuvant. Now what should happen is that you re-evaluate your position and conclude there is no connection between aluminum in MMR (since it’s not there), autism and CFS. Will you?

PhoneMain

Amantine wrote: »

Global pharma market will reach $1.12 trillion in 2022, they will BE the law! They have enough to buy congress 10 times over.

source:https://pharmaceuticalcommerce.com/business-and-finance/global-pharma-market-will-reach-1-12-trillion-2022/

Here's a question for ye antivaxxers. Ye seem to imply that the medical profession are compromised in their relationship with "Big Pharma". That the medical profession is unduely influenced by "Big Pharma" and that it is the financial might of "Big Pharma" that cause the medical profession (Doctors, nurses etc) to advise on the use of vaccines.

So why does every doctor in the world strongly advise breast feeding over formula feeding? How come every mother is given much help and advice in hospital to try give them as much chance as they can succeed at breastfeeding? How come doctors and nurses advise of all the infinite benefits of breastfeeding over formula feeding?

Surely if it was as easy for "Big Pharma" (ridiculous term) to suppress the negative effects of vaccines, how come they haven't been able to influence the medical profession to prescribe formula rather than encouraging breast feeding?

ancapailldorcha

Amantine wrote: »

Because we were talking about the evidence that high brain aluminium has an effect on mitochondrial activity and I have first hand experience of chronic fatigue syndrome. More and more people are reporting feeling tired all the time - which is not the same as CFS but one has to ask where all these health problem are coming from.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

I'll wait until I see a study from actual scientists and not cranks confirming vaccine causing autism instead of your posting irrelevant.

batgoat

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The plural of anecdote is not data.

I'll wait until I see a study from actual scientists and not cranks confirming vaccine causing autism instead of your posting irrelevant.

Also chronic fatigue syndrome has no known cause as is and very little is known about it. So it's a fair jump to attribute it to vaccines..

Igotadose

In the real world, seems like the anti-vaxers gift is still giving. Someone with Measles went to an Avengers:Endgame screening. Dunno, I'm not a doctor, but it seems like the potential for the spread, with this event and the quarantining at USC and the other university, is in the tens of thousands of people now. This will cost billions.


https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Avengers-End-Game-Measles-Movie-Crowd-Exposed-Fullerton-Orange-County--509328371.html

iamwhoiam

https://www.newstalk.com/news/anti-vax-imo-serious-concerns-854645


IMO President Dr Padraig McGarry said vulnerable parents are being swayed by bogus anti-vax articles shared on social media.

He explained: "We have seen a significant rise in populism across the Western world in recent years, from which Ireland is not immune.

"With that populism has come a blind faith in ludicrous theories that do nothing but cause harm to people.

"The rejection and devaluing of evidence-based medical knowledge will make more people sick and endanger lives.

"It is up to all of us to fight this misinformation at every turn."

Igotadose

iamwhoiam wrote: »

https://www.newstalk.com/news/anti-vax-imo-serious-concerns-854645


IMO President Dr Padraig McGarry said vulnerable parents are being swayed by bogus anti-vax articles shared on social media.

He explained: "We have seen a significant rise in populism across the Western world in recent years, from which Ireland is not immune.

"With that populism has come a blind faith in ludicrous theories that do nothing but cause harm to people.

"The rejection and devaluing of evidence-based medical knowledge will make more people sick and endanger lives.

"It is up to all of us to fight this misinformation at every turn."

Australia already does this, no jab, no pay. Ireland should do the same. Enough of anti-vax flat-earth bullshit nonsense, probably the sources online trace back to Russia or other mischief-makers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Jab,_No_Pay

ToBeFrank123

batgoat wrote: »

Also chronic fatigue syndrome has no known cause as is and very little is known about it. So it's a fair jump to attribute it to vaccines..

A jump which bar stool anti vaxxers are prepared to make nonetheless.

CelticRambler

Amantine wrote: »

Yes, autoimmune diseases like type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, Hashimoto’s thyroid disease, multiple sclerosis, inflammatory bowel disease (Crohn’s disease and ulcerative colitis), celiac disease, asthma and chronic fatigue syndrome are on the rise.

If you want to go down the route of including autoimmune (and immune-mediated) diseases into an anti-vaxx argument, you're going to have to include the obsessive use of disinfectants and anti-bacterial products as part of your discussion, because there's a heck of a lot more evidence to suggest that our excessively clean homes are messing with our immune systems than any vaccine.

Wibbs

batgoat wrote: »

Also chronic fatigue syndrome has no known cause as is and very little is known about it. So it's a fair jump to attribute it to vaccines..

Slight problem with that would be chronic fatigue syndrome or ME as it was known and "Yuppie Flu" first came to light in the 1980's, the yuppie bit being the giveaway. Mostly young adults coming down with it back then had in the majority of cases not been vaccinated. Or at least to the degree kids would be today. I'd be of that generation and the only vaccine I got was polio(on a sugar lump IIRC) and tetanus when I was 3. What immunity I have to measles(both kinds), chicken pox, mumps, glandular fever and other childhood illnesses came from actually catching them.

On that score and as an aside I suppose; was measles less virulent and dangerous at times in the past? Most of my generation would have seen it as another childhood illness, almost a rite of passage and a week off school. Having had conversations with peers none of us knew anyone who had been screwed up by it. I was chatting with a woman a couple of years ago, a nurse actually and she would have been in her late thirties so a decade behind me at the time and she knew one girl in her area that died from it and a friend of hers ended up deaf because of it.

Wibbs

CelticRambler wrote: »

If you want to go down the route of including autoimmune (and immune-mediated) diseases into an anti-vaxx argument, you're going to have to include the obsessive use of disinfectants and anti-bacterial products as part of your discussion, because there's a heck of a lot more evidence to suggest that our excessively clean homes are messing with our immune systems than any vaccine.

Indeed and on the medical side antibiotics, though one of the greatest positive game changers in the history of human health(along with vaccines) have a role to play there. IIRC if you've had an antibiotic in the first year of life it's a near certainty that you will have an allergy down the line. Better than being six feet under mind you, so the risk/benefit equation is firmly on the benefit side.

ohnonotgmail

Wibbs wrote: »

Slight problem with that would be chronic fatigue syndrome or ME as it was known and "Yuppie Flu" first came to light in the 1980's, the yuppie bit being the giveaway. Mostly young adults coming down with it back then had in the majority of cases not been vaccinated. Or at least to the degree kids would be today. I'd be of that generation and the only vaccine I got was polio(on a sugar lump IIRC) and tetanus when I was 3. What immunity I have to measles(both kinds), chicken pox, mumps, glandular fever and other childhood illnesses came from actually catching them.

On that score and as an aside I suppose; was measles less virulent and dangerous at times in the past? Most of my generation would have seen it as another childhood illness, almost a rite of passage and a week off school. Having had conversations with peers none of us knew anyone who had been screwed up by it. I was chatting with a woman a couple of years ago, a nurse actually and she would have been in her late thirties so a decade behind me at the time and she knew one girl in her area that died from it and a friend of hers ended up deaf because of it.

while it is true for most childrens that measles presents as a rash that goes away after a week or so, the death toll from measles before vaccination ran into millions annually worldwide. Not to mention those children left with deafness, pneumonia, encaphalitis etc. To not get vaccinated because you dont consider measles to be a serious illness is a very unwise move indeed.

Wibbs

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

while it is true for most childrens that measles presents as a rash that goes away after a week or so, the death toll from measles before vaccination ran into millions annually worldwide. Not to mention those children left with deafness, pneumonia, encaphalitis etc. To not get vaccinated because you dont consider measles to be a serious illness is a very unwise move indeed.

Oh I agree 100%. I'm not an anti vaccine type at all and I say that as someone who would cast a wary eye over many practices in the pharmaceutical industry. I see that as a separate thing to the clear as the nose on one's face benefit of the vaccines we're discussing here. Vaccines, antibiotics and sanitation are the big three changes that have made people live longer healthier loves more than any other medical or scientific innovation in human history.

The problem with these kind of debates is how extreme both sides can get and how extremely quickly both sides can go fulll on WTF!! to any question of their position. Even though I wasn't and wouldn't question the value of vaccines. I was merely wondering has measles become more dangerous as a virus over time? Viruses rarely stay stable so I'd be surprised if it hadn't become more or less virulent depending on time period.

CelticRambler

Wibbs wrote: »

On that score and as an aside I suppose; was measles less virulent and dangerous at times in the past? Most of my generation would have seen it as another childhood illness, almost a rite of passage and a week off school. Having had conversations with peers none of us knew anyone who had been screwed up by it.

Wibbs wrote: »

I was merely wondering has measles become more dangerous as a virus over time?

Simple answer is yes ... no ... kinda ...

I'm of the same generation, and "gettin' the measles" was something that was expected and not pleasant, but not as bad as having your tonsils out. To the best of my knowledge, the virus isn't any more virulent today than it was then, but because "everyone" got the measles, everyone had a degree of partial immunity (e.g. the baby protected by maternal immunity whose big brother brought full-on measles home from school).

I haven't seen it described anywhere, but knowing how other viruses behave, I imagine the sheer commonality of measles back then meant that there were probably less virulent strains around at the time too, but there were also so many more children in schools and families and playing together on the streets that our immune systems had the benefit of being stimulated non-stop by germs of all sorts.

Nowadays, thanks to vaccination, there's virtually no natural background infection/immunity, so if an unvaccinated individual meets the virus, they'll be exposed to the full force of the disease. This is pretty much the same situation as when we Europeans took all our infectious diseases to the New World in the 15th Century and wiped out the indigenous populations over there.

Igotadose

Although I'm feeling some schadenfreude about the cruise ship in question, this one's been quarantined due to one of the passengers having measles. Not sure if the order that the people aboard the ship belong to, is pro- or anti-vax, google seems to indicate they're anti-medicine but not anti-vax.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/02/health/st-lucia-measles-cruise-ship-quarantine/index.html

ancapailldorcha

What gets me is that Pharma companies are quite rightfully condemned when they either make a mistake or engage in morally duplicitous and malevolent activity. There are literally whole books about this such as Ben Goldacre's Bad Pharma.

People like Wakefield on the other hand get set up for life and are worshiped like Hollywood stars.

Cabaal

Awkward!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-48130848

St Lucia quarantines US cruise ship over measles case

A US cruise ship has been placed in quarantine by the Caribbean island of St Lucia after a case of measles was reported on board, the island's chief medical officer said.

Dr Merlene Fredericks James said there was a confirmed case of measles on board and "thought it prudent that we quarantine the ship".

No-one aboard was allowed to leave.

......The ship is reportedly the Freewinds, which is said to be owned and operated by the Church of Scientology.

The 440-foot ship is based in the Caribbean and often hosts high-ranking Scientologists. The church website notes it's home to the highest level of Scientology spiritual counseling.

But what does this have to do with anti-vaxers I hear you ask?

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/how-vaccines-autism-battle-continues-despite-scientific-consensus-924080

A notable number of the highest-profile immunization dissenters are Scientologists, from Masterson and Juliette Lewis to Jenna Elfman and Kirstie Alley

While the Scientologist cult doesn't have an official line on vaccinations

Scientology did host a June 2015 event at one of its Los Angeles community centers where issue activists Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and biochemist Brian Hooker, Ph.D., promulgated their views ahead of California Gov. Brown’s signing of SB 277 weeks later.

In addition

Ex-Scientologist critics observe that a mistrust of immunization, while not official doctrine, is an unsurprising consequence of members’ credence for the principles surrounding the church’s controversial cleansing “purification rundown” program, which allegedly treats drug abuse and toxic exposure. “In that school of thought, vaccines could potentially be hurtful too,” says Claire Headley. In addition, they note, members find familiarity and even righteousness in the experience of holding lonely, lambasted views. “Smugness is an understatement,” says Spanky Taylor. “It’s an arrogance.”

Oh dear, looks like its coming back to bite them now

Amantine

CelticRambler wrote: »

If you want to go down the route of including autoimmune (and immune-mediated) diseases into an anti-vaxx argument, you're going to have to include the obsessive use of disinfectants and anti-bacterial products as part of your discussion, because there's a heck of a lot more evidence to suggest that our excessively clean homes are messing with our immune systems than any vaccine.

They are part of the problem and so is anything else that affect our microbiota: cesarian births, lack of breastfeeding, antibiotics, lack of fermented food and processed food.

Amantine

PhoneMain wrote: »

Here's a question for ye antivaxxers. Ye seem to imply that the medical profession are compromised in their relationship with "Big Pharma". That the medical profession is unduely influenced by "Big Pharma" and that it is the financial might of "Big Pharma" that cause the medical profession (Doctors, nurses etc) to advise on the use of vaccines.

So why does every doctor in the world strongly advise breast feeding over formula feeding? How come every mother is given much help and advice in hospital to try give them as much chance as they can succeed at breastfeeding? How come doctors and nurses advise of all the infinite benefits of breastfeeding over formula feeding?

Surely if it was as easy for "Big Pharma" (ridiculous term) to suppress the negative effects of vaccines, how come they haven't been able to influence the medical profession to prescribe formula rather than encouraging breast feeding?

Actually there was a time when formula companies did influence doctors - I linked the research below - but formula companies are not pharmaceutical companies and there are no "formula reps". Now formula companies are not allowed to advertise formula for young babies to doctors or mothers. Since we are talking about immunity on this thread, the breastfed infant is better protected against numerous common infections than the non-breastfed. I also found a paper stating that vaccine immune responses are also often enhanced in breastfed infants.


"From the early twentieth century until the late 1980s, most formula companies abandoned direct-to-consumer advertising and used the medical community as their sole advertising vehicle.7 In lieu of directions on how to prepare the formula and recommended dosages, formula package instructions advised mothers to obtain formula feeding guidance at regular doctor visits—yielding a steady flow of income for physicians. 8 Formula companies further engendered physicians’ goodwill by sponsoring scientific conferences and research on infant nutrition.7 Doctors retained their role as undisputed advisors on infant health and feeding while simultaneously providing product referrals for formula purchase and serving as an advertising source of unparalleled credibility."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2443254/

Amantine

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What gets me is that Pharma companies are quite rightfully condemned when they either make a mistake or engage in morally duplicitous and malevolent activity. There are literally whole books about this such as Ben Goldacre's Bad Pharma.


Hi ancapailldorcha, have you read it? Is it any good? I've only read the free sample.