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Islam and Women

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  • 10-12-2007 12:16am
    #1
    TheThing!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 287 ✭✭


    Why is there such a perception that Islam does not treat women well. I have often heard that this is the case and yet I have also heard from Muslim women that they are treated very well. What is this preception based on, if not reality?

    Btw I meant Islam and women but I cant fix that, now can I


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    #2
    Osman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Osman


    Hi TheThing! (interesting name),

    I would probably say that the perception you describe is based upon a lack of understanding on the Non-Muslim's part about Islamic thought and teachings.

    I'm a Muslim myself, but for my part, I don't blame the Non-Muslim's as I think it is only natural to draw such conclusions from mere observation. After all, the west is supposedly 'liberated' and associated with that are a lot of women who are dressed quite 'liberally'.

    To then look at a Muslim woman who is covered up, it is probably easy to conclude that she is oppressed.

    However, like you pointed out, one needs only to speak to a Muslim woman themselves to find that such is not the case. I feel that it is very important that a person researches a religion before prejudging as the reality may be the complete opposite to what they thought.

    Here is a link to an article about the status of Muslim women in Islam:

    http://www.jamaat.org/islam/WomanIslam.html

    And I leave you with a quote from the final sermon of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh):

    "Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

    Regards


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    #3
    Playboy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    Osman wrote: »
    Hi TheThing! (interesting name),

    I would probably say that the perception you describe is based upon a lack of understanding on the Non-Muslim's part about Islamic thought and teachings.

    I'm a Muslim myself, but for my part, I don't blame the Non-Muslim's as I think it is only natural to draw such conclusions from mere observation. After all, the west is supposedly 'liberated' and associated with that are a lot of women who are dressed quite 'liberally'.

    To then look at a Muslim woman who is covered up, it is probably easy to conclude that she is oppressed.

    However, like you pointed out, one needs only to speak to a Muslim woman themselves to find that such is not the case. I feel that it is very important that a person researches a religion before prejudging as the reality may be the complete opposite to what they thought.

    Here is a link to an article about the status of Muslim women in Islam:

    http://www.jamaat.org/islam/WomanIslam.html

    And I leave you with a quote from the final sermon of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh):

    "Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

    Regards

    I think if you had an honest conversation with a lot of Muslim women then I think you find a large amount of them are actually indeed oppressed. This however does depend on what country you are in. Woman are meant to be treated as equals in Islam but this is ignored in a lot of Muslim countries where there is an extremely patriarchial culture. So unfortunately the religion gets blamed for this oppressive treatment when in fact it is a cultural problem.


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    #4
    Osman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Osman


    Good point, I agree. :)


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    #5
    normar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭normar


    TheThing! wrote: »
    Why is there such a perception that Islam does not treat women well.......


    I would say an answer to your question can be found by investigation of what the Qur'an itself ( the immutable word of Allah or God) says

    Firstly in relation to womens equality, next the Divinely sanctioned right to beat women, and lastly their Sexual role in heaven :

    AN-NISA (WOMEN)

    004.011
    Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:

    004.034
    Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).


    AL-WAQIA (THE EVENT, THE INEVITABLE)

    056.035
    We have created (their Companions) of special creation.
    056.036
    And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), -
    056.037
    Beloved (by nature), equal in age,-
    056.038
    YUSUFALI: For the Companions of the Right Hand.


    AN-NABA (THE TIDINGS, THE ANNOUNCEMENT)
    078.031
    Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfilment of (the heart's) desires;
    078.032
    Gardens enclosed, and grapevines;
    078.033
    And voluptuous women of equal age;

    Also it would help to look at womens rights under Islamic Sharia law as it is offically sanctioned in the Islamic State of Saudi Arabia:

    news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7098480.stm

    Saudi gang rape sentence 'unjust'

    A lawyer for a gang-rape victim in Saudi Arabia who was sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in jail says the punishment contravenes Islamic law.

    The woman was initially punished for violating laws on segregation of the sexes - she was in an unrelated man's car at the time of the attack.

    When she appealed, judges doubled her sentence, saying she had been trying to use the media to influence them.

    Her lawyer has been suspended from the case and faces a disciplinary session.

    The rape victim was punished for violating Saudi Arabia's laws on segregation that forbid unrelated men and women from associating with each other. She was initially sentenced to 90 lashes for being in the car of a strange man.

    On appeal, the Arab News reported that the punishment was not reduced but increased to 200 lashes and a six-month prison sentence.


    You can make up your own mind.


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    #6
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Saudi Arabia is just one Muslim country. There are many Muslims countries. Each are very different. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. To say that one countries laws and traditions represent all Muslims everywhere is ridiculous, we all have different traditions and laws.


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    #7
    blackthorn
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭blackthorn


    TheThing wrote:
    What is this preception based on, if not reality?

    It comes from seeing Islam through a distorted lens, with the result that incidents of injustice or oppression against women that occur in the Muslim world are magnified, while the normative, good experiences of Muslim women are invisible. The inter-gender relationships of a fifth of the world's population, over a billion people, can in this way be tarred with the single brush of any isolated miscarriage of justice.

    Another symptom of this misperception is the distorted way of looking at the Quran that says the only correct interpretation is the one that appears least friendly to women, or human rights etc. No other way of reading the verses is acceptable. No complexity is permissible, nor allegory. It must be a literalist reading of a poor translation only. Actual scholars of the scriptures are surplus to requirements. Never mind the implied insult to women - that we must be stupid to believe in such a religion! Thank God, Islam is very different to that myopic view.


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    #8
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    normar wrote: »


    You can make up your own mind.

    In fairness, you could have went with what her lawyer said, that it contravenes Islamic law(based on Saudi Arabia's record he's probably right)

    To the OP: The perception is there because Islamic countries treat women(and men) badly. Some would argue that if a tree keeps producing rotten apples, what does it say about the tree? I'm not sure myself.

    Now to go a step further & answer what I think you're actually asking - "Does Islam treat women badly?" I'd have to think about it & do a lot of reading.

    I'm guessing it's down to the individual. If I was a woman I'd imagine I'd be outraged about the restrictions on my clothing & the fact that I could only marry a Muslim.

    However if I was a Muslim I might be outraged about objectification of women where more freedom is allowed.

    Overall I'd imagine I'd side with the western outlook, though I have lived here all my life.


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    #9
    moe_sizlak
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 883 ✭✭✭moe_sizlak


    TheThing! wrote: »
    Why is there such a perception that Islam does not treat women well. I have often heard that this is the case and yet I have also heard from Muslim women that they are treated very well. What is this preception based on, if not reality?

    Btw I meant Islam and women but I cant fix that, now can I

    if it looks like a duck , waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck


    im banned , right


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    #10
    jackal
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭jackal


    Its not too long ago that Irish women were treated as badly or worse than muslim women. We had shameful extremes such as the magdeline laundy's and so on. Sure it was only in 1973 that women could continue working after marriage. Lets not get too high and mighty. It's easy now to look back and see that it was wrong, but at the time there were plenty of well educated, normal men that were quite happy with the status quo where they were the boss and women knew their place.

    Im sure most mainsteam Muslims are horrified at the likes of the treatment meted out to the poor woman in Saudia Arabia. I wish we would see the likes of these extreme cultures who use islam as a tool to opress their people ostracised by the rest of the Muslim world. I really wish that Muslim's would show as little tolerance for abuse of their religion by insiders as they seem to reserve for outsiders.


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    #11
    moe_sizlak
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 883 ✭✭✭moe_sizlak


    jackal wrote: »
    Its not too long ago that Irish women were treated as badly or worse than muslim women. We had shameful extremes such as the magdeline laundy's and so on. Sure it was only in 1973 that women could continue working after marriage. Lets not get too high and mighty. It's easy now to look back and see that it was wrong, but at the time there were plenty of well educated, normal men that were quite happy with the status quo where they were the boss and women knew their place.

    Im sure most mainsteam Muslims are horrified at the likes of the treatment meted out to the poor woman in Saudia Arabia. I wish we would see the likes of these extreme cultures who use islam as a tool to opress their people ostracised by the rest of the Muslim world. I really wish that Muslim's would show as little tolerance for abuse of their religion by insiders as they seem to reserve for outsiders.



    it is shameless to try and create moral equivellance between how women in ireland were once treated and how muslim women in the likes of saudi arabia or iran are still treated
    there is no comparrison


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    #12
    Playboy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    moe_sizlak wrote: »
    it is shameless to try and create moral equivellance between how women in ireland were once treated and how muslim women in the likes of saudi arabia or iran are still treated
    there is no comparrison

    Why? What way are they treated?


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    #13
    jackal
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭jackal


    moe_sizlak wrote: »
    it is shameless to try and create moral equivellance between how women in ireland were once treated and how muslim women in the likes of saudi arabia or iran are still treated
    there is no comparrison

    I agree, it is indeed without shame.


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    #14
    moe_sizlak
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 883 ✭✭✭moe_sizlak


    Playboy wrote: »
    Why? What way are they treated?

    wont dignify that comment with an answer


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    #15
    Sweet Lips
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭Sweet Lips


    jackal wrote: »
    Its not too long ago that Irish women were treated as badly or worse than muslim women. We had shameful extremes such as the magdeline laundy's and so on. Sure it was only in 1973 that women could continue working after marriage. Lets not get too high and mighty. It's easy now to look back and see that it was wrong, but at the time there were plenty of well educated, normal men that were quite happy with the status quo where they were the boss and women knew their place.

    Im sure most mainsteam Muslims are horrified at the likes of the treatment meted out to the poor woman in Saudia Arabia. I wish we would see the likes of these extreme cultures who use islam as a tool to opress their people ostracised by the rest of the Muslim world. I really wish that Muslim's would show as little tolerance for abuse of their religion by insiders as they seem to reserve for outsiders.
    I agree with the Magdeline sisters as my mum was one and that has f**** her up!
    As for Muslim women, I was on holidays in Morocco 2 years ago and the women there want to get married they dont want to be single as it looks bad, even if she is wife number 3 etc...
    they get a scarf to wear as we get the diamond ring ... I was baffled ... They have to walk behind their husbands.
    their men cheat on them all the time, they pretend that they are not married
    Their male friends cannot contact them unless she contacts them.
    And as for their swimming wear it like wearing pjs, I felt naked at the pool.
    They girls are not allowed to go to night clubs and as for single Women who get pregnant their familes throw them out and they become homeless, you see them sleeping rough in trees every where ...so sad!


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    #16
    Suff
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Suff


    Oh Please!

    The culture of the country determines how women are treated, not the religion. I have lived and travled to Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi, UAE and Eygpt and each country is as different as Ireland would be to Spain!

    you will never find this (walk behind the husband, cant use the phone unless her friend calls, and so on...) in any part of the faith nor you'll find it in Syria, lebanon or Jordan and even most of the gulf states like Kuwait and UAE. Saudi is different all together. their rules on women are not formed from the religion but is done on a political and cultural base.

    Women are much more libirated than you think, the only reason why you'd think they are oppressed is from them wearing the hejab (head scarf). just ask yourself this....in every image depicting the Virgin Mary she's wearing a hejab (head scarf)..why? its the symbol for modesty infront of God.

    Please, look beyond the cloths and more into the rules and teachings of the faith before making your judgments.


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    #17
    moe_sizlak
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 883 ✭✭✭moe_sizlak


    Suff wrote: »
    Oh Please!

    The culture of the country determines how women are treated, not the religion. I have lived and travled to Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi, UAE and Eygpt and each country is as different as Ireland would be to Spain!

    you will never find this (walk behind the husband, cant use the phone unless her friend calls, and so on...) in any part of the faith nor you'll find it in Syria, lebanon or Jordan and even most of the gulf states like Kuwait and UAE. Saudi is different all together. their rules on women are not formed from the religion but is done on a political and cultural base.

    Women are much more libirated than you think, the only reason why you'd think they are oppressed is from them wearing the hejab (head scarf). just ask yourself this....in every image depicting the Virgin Mary she's wearing a hejab (head scarf)..why? its the symbol for modesty infront of God.

    Please, look beyond the cloths and more into the rules and teachings of the faith before making your judgments.

    you have a right to your opinion but your statement that the treatment of women in theese places is due to the culture of the country and not islam, well i do not buy that
    i believe it is down to islam , im entitled to my opinion and it is a widely held one too i might add


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    #18
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    moe_sizlak wrote: »
    you have a right to your opinion but your statement that the treatment of women in theese places is due to the culture of the country and not islam, well i do not buy that
    i believe it is down to islam , im entitled to my opinion and it is a widely held one too i might add

    If it is down to this monolithic thing called Islam. Wouldn't all the treatment be exactly the same? Some thing do come from an interpretation of Islam, but a lot also comes from culture, access to education, prosperity of society etc. Its not just down to Islam. Its down to several factors all working together to create unique situation in several different countries.


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    #19
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    I just have some questions regarding this excerpt from the Koran;
    normar wrote: »
    004.011
    Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:

    Does that mean a Woman is only half of what a Man is by physique?

    004.034
    Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).


    I personally have some issues regarding the highlighted text.
    Men are the maintainers of women for which we should be devoutly obedient to them because they are physically stronger than us. If we disobey them a third time, they can beat us, lightly. How is lightly defined under Islamic law? Are whip lashings applied lightly?
    AL-WAQIA (THE EVENT, THE INEVITABLE)

    056.035
    We have created (their Companions) of special creation.
    056.036
    And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), -
    056.037
    Beloved (by nature), equal in age,-
    056.038
    YUSUFALI: For the Companions of the Right Hand.

    So a womans role in heaven is to be a young virgin? What happens when she is no longer a celestial virgin? Does she become a heavenly sex slave?
    AN-NABA (THE TIDINGS, THE ANNOUNCEMENT)
    078.031
    Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfilment of (the heart's) desires;
    078.032
    Gardens enclosed, and grapevines;
    078.033
    And voluptuous women of equal age;

    What is this bit about?


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    #20
    mmalaka
    Registered Users Posts: 792 ✭✭✭mmalaka


    Suff wrote: »

    you will never find this (walk behind the husband, cant use the phone unless her friend calls, and so on...)

    Even in Saudi Arabia u will not see this especially in the main cities


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    #21
    MeditationMom
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭MeditationMom


    Sex in heaven - that always makes me wonder. Or harp music for that matter.

    Isn't sex the reason for all this drama on the earth in the first place? And the serious drama follows when cultures try to control or manipulate natural sexual behavior, whether they try to suppress it or promote it. There is no reason to do either but for money and power, either for the church or for business, respectively.

    Sex is not the problem. Our attitudes that we bring to it, are.

    In heaven with God - what else could be needed? Sex, money, power, riches, pleasures, knowledge, position and status with God, harp music? Those are the games children play on earth. In heaven you are in heaven, and nothing else or other is needed.


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    #22
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    I'm guessing it's down to the individual. .

    The problem with this is that most muslim women are born into Islam and its practices so how wil they know any different.Also even If you decided you didnt want to be a muslim anymore in one of the islamic countries would It be possible as a women to live as a non muslim?? I presume the laws would be pretty strict against non muslim women and those decideing to leave the faith?


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    #23
    mmalaka
    Registered Users Posts: 792 ✭✭✭mmalaka


    panda100 wrote: »
    Also even If you decided you didnt want to be a muslim anymore in one of the islamic countries would It be possible as a women to live as a non muslim?? I presume the laws would be pretty strict against non muslim women and those decideing to leave the faith?

    Islam is not forced by law, a lot of non muslims are living in the Islamic country without any problems, same as the muslims women living here


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    #24
    Suff
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Suff


    If one is going to base their judgment on what they hear and see in the media then alot of misconception and stereotype-ing will be in place; example...All Irish people are alcoholics, America is a scary/dangerous place to live or visit or that all Americans are dumb, everyone in Holland is in the Porn industry.....and so on.

    Just because they are covering their hair you make an immediate judgment that they are oppressed. but again I dont blame you since this is the only thing the media is interesetd in showing. "news that sells" however if it happened once it doesnt mean it's occurring all the time all !

    To even think or suggest that any woman within my family are suffering from oppression is ridiculous. they are not restricted in their life in any way or form. I find it even ridiculous to defend them on this issue!
    My family is religious, we do follow the faith but all the stereotypes issues mentioned here does not exist within my family and I mean my entire family including distant relations.

    Culture plays a MAJOR part of any individual upbringing.


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    #25
    MeditationMom
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭MeditationMom


    Doesn't it basically boil down to a few questions if one wanted to find out whether women are oppressed in any given country? And I am not talking about happily married women who are treated with respect and kindness by their husbands. There is a line of thought that marriage alone is oppression of women, although many husbands are "oppressed" just the same. The ideal - a harmonious, loving marriage - is a child's heaven to grow up in and a great environment to learn how to harmonize opposites. Therefore marriage is the foundation of church or state. Bad marriages are the problem, not good ones.

    The questions to ask then are -

    One: Do women have equal voting and property rights as men in that country?

    Two: Are women free to have sex whenever and with whomever they chose, whether they are married or not? Or no sex at all, which takes us back to property rights, as a woman would need to be able to own property to survive if her husband kicked her out. Does the woman hold all medical rights regarding her body, be that birth control or plastic surgery.

    Three: Are women legally permitted to hold the same jobs, get the same educations, as men, borrow money from banks, etc, etc.

    Four: Do they get to keep their genitals in tact? This is also an issue for men. Circumcision should be a medical choice to be made after age 18 or 21, if desired. Not forced on trusting children by "traditional" parents, aunties, uncles and priests.

    Church and culture have trouble catching up with these ideals even in free countries. In practice there is still plenty of oppression going on everywhere, and people settle for it for survival reasons. It is a question whether laws are in place for the brave or wealthy ones to fight all forms of ignorance, cruelty and suppression. That is why separation of church and state is so important. Countries who have fought their way out of legalized oppression - as the US has regarding women, and slavery, for example - have done so at great cost. But they have also seen the benefits. Happy, free people - men or women - are more creative and productive.

    So are Muslim women oppressed? In most Muslim countries - I would say yes. Do they feel oppressed? Not necessarily. If you agree with the oppressor for religious or cultural reasons - how could you feel oppressed?

    Freedom carries a lot of responsibility. Freedom is so abused in the US that some parts of the world question the value of freedom, and, we are starting to lose some of the freedoms our parents and grandparents have died for. Even freedom doesn't like to stick around when abused.


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    #26
    mmalaka
    Registered Users Posts: 792 ✭✭✭mmalaka


    I will try to answer as much as I know
    MeditationMom wrote: »
    One: Do women have equal voting and property rights as men in that country?

    In most of the country yes
    MeditationMom wrote: »
    Three: Are women legally permitted to hold the same jobs, get the same educations, as men, borrow money from banks, etc, etc.

    .

    yes
    MeditationMom wrote: »

    Two: Are women free to have sex whenever and with whomever they chose, whether they are married or not? Or no sex at all, which takes us back to property rights, as a woman would need to be able to own property to survive if her husband kicked her out. Does the woman hold all medical rights regarding her body, be that birth control or plastic surgery.

    About sex: Is this a right thing? I think even the church see the sex outside the marriage as a sin correct?

    for the property: yes

    and her husband can not simply kick her out the Islam and law has rules about this to save the wife rigths

    Medical rights: the women hold all medical rights


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    #27
    MeditationMom
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭MeditationMom


    Thank you mmalaka. I am happy to hear all those laws are in place.
    by mmalak - About sex: Is this a right thing? I think even the church see the sex outside the marriage as a sin correct?

    It is a sin in Christianity, too. But legally it is allowed and not punishable.

    Most Christians do not follow this rule anymore and would consider it unwise, or even dangerous, to marry someone who they do not know well enough.


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    #28
    Suff
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Suff


    MeditationMom wrote: »
    Most Christians do not follow this rule anymore and would consider it unwise, or even dangerous, to marry someone who they do not know well enough.

    I find this crazy...a couple of over 2 years in a relationship cannot marry unless they have sex to confirm their love or commitment!


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    #29
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    MeditationMom wrote: »
    Most Christians do not follow this rule anymore and would consider it unwise, or even dangerous, to marry someone who they do not know well enough.
    In fairness, you generally talk a lot of sense and we all have our off days, but can I suggest that you might want to rethink the last comment if you're suggesting people must have sex before marriage to be deemed to know each other well.

    I think your key point - that each partner needs to share an idea of what they expect marriage to be - cannot be contested. I don't think we can sensibly say much more than that, as it really depends on the outlook of the people concerned.


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    #30
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    MeditationMom wrote: »
    Most Christians do not follow this rule anymore and would consider it unwise, or even dangerous, to marry someone who they do not know well enough.

    If you are using 'Christian' in a broad cultural sense (ie anyone born in a so-called Christian country) then that would be correct. However, if we use the word 'Christian' to refer to those who worship Christ and seek to live as His followers then your statement is untrue.


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    #31
    MeditationMom
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭MeditationMom


    Schuhart and PDN,

    I agree with both of you. I made the mistake - again - as we all do, thinking of "Christian" in a cultural sense, as in "the modern Christian". A devout Christian, who takes religion seriously to the point of trusting the wisdom of the ancient teachings more than his or her own, and for whom it is more important than other things in life, indeed would not think lightly of sex before marriage, and would most likely follow this rule.

    As applies not just to sex - good things come to those who wait. Difficult in cultures of instant gratification. Good spiritual training, indeed.

    Suff,

    A man who would be a woman's friend for two years without sex and still wait patiently to marry her - is an angel. And visa versa. They are very, very lucky. A marriage based on such a friendship is blessed. Especially when both husband and wife are in their first relationship and on a common religious path.

    Unfortunately there are many exceptions to this ideal situation. Not all women and men are young, good, healthy, psychologically balanced, not previously married, of the same religion, etc, etc.


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