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Middle eastern and Islamic attitudes to women

take everything

Just watching BBC news night with the lovely* Emma Barnett and yet another story of a gang-rape of a woman in Morocco in broad daylight that was filmed and posted on social media.

Apparently in this country before 2014 a rapist could avoid prosecution if they then married the victim (I may have that wrong and am open to correction).

But the attitudes to women in North African/middle eastern/Islamic culture never ceases to utterly baffle me.

The idea that a woman is to blame in rape (and can be punished or killed for being raped) is mind-bendingly sick. It's so insanely removed from any sort of logic or rationality, I don't know where to start to even try to understand the possible basis for these attitudes.

What is wrong with these people.
Are women truly seen as either subhuman or property in these cultures.

I can only begin to imagine how people with such attitudes see Western women. They must see them as the devil incarnate and presumably want them killed for being any way emancipated.

Anyone with any insights into the psychology behind such cultures and these attitudes to women. It seems to be a huge problem (and largely untouched by feminism- a shocking indictment in itself).

* I make no apologies for thinking Emma Barnett is lovely.

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MightyMandarin

I can see this thread being one of nothing but rational and reasonable discussion throughout.

Leogirl

This should be fun!!

Bogfairy

Anyone who sees women as second class citizens is an absolute scutther burnt ar5ehole of the highest order

charlie_says

take everything wrote: »

Just watching BBC news night with the lovely* Emma Barnett and yet another story of a gang-rape of a woman in Morocco in broad daylight that was filmed and posted on social media.

Apparently in this country before 2014 a rapist could avoid prosecution if they then married the victim (I may have that wrong and am open to correction).

But the attitudes to women in North African/middle eastern/Islamic culture never ceases to utterly baffle me.

The idea that a woman is to blame in rape (and can be punished or killed for being raped) is mind-bendingly sick. It's so insanely removed from any sort of logic or rationality, I don't know where to start to even try to understand the possible basis for these attitudes.

What is wrong with these people.
Are women truly seen as either subhuman or property in these cultures.

I can only begin to imagine how people with such attitudes see Western women. They must see them as the devil incarnate and presumably want them killed for being any way emancipated.

Anyone with any insights into the psychology behind such cultures and these attitudes to women. It seems to be a huge problem (and largely untouched by feminism- a shocking indictment in itself).

* I make no apologies for thinking Emma Barnett is lovely.

Disgusting sexist comments. How dare you.

emo72

its wrong. why should women be treated as less than men. its bull****. same in catholic church, women cant be priests, its bull****. its bull**** no matter what religion it is. does your religion treat women as second class citizens? then its bull****.

Ipso

Not as bad as the West/HandMaidensTalistan.

take everything

MightyMandarin wrote: »

I can see this thread being one of nothing but rational and reasonable discussion throughout.

I'm only interested in how such attitudes to women develop. It's like the elephant in the room. I'm trying to think of something similar in another culture that is so off psychologically and it's hard to think of another example.

50% of the population are treated appallingly from what I can see.
I'm interested in honest views from all sides of the spectrum. Annoying that the first response is that this can't be discussed rationally and honestly without it descending into a trainwreck.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Ipso

take everything wrote: »

I'm only interested in how such attitudes to women develop. It's like the elephant in the room. I'm trying to think of something similar in another culture that is so off psychologically and it's hard to think of another example.

50% of the population are treated appallingly from what I can see.
I'm interested in honest views from all sides of the spectrum. Annoying that the first response is that this can't be discussed rationally and honestly without it descending into a trainwreck.

As societies modernize/change/develop one of the most noticeable things is the role of women; how they dress, more active in workplaces, politics etc
Some of the stone age attitude may be a way to avoid change.

Noveight

One man wrote on Facebook that “I condemn the act but cover yourselves up, this one was easy to undress.”

I condemn the act but...

Ipso

Noveight wrote: »

I condemn the act but...

The good old "she was asking for it".

MightyMandarin

take everything wrote: »

I'm trying to think of something similar in another culture that is so off psychologically and it's hard to think of another example.

In Germany it's common to drink tea without milk. I lived there for a year and I can say I still have nightmares of mates drinking cup after cup of disgusting black tea.

Your Face

take everything wrote: »

(I may have that wrong and am open to correction).

Probably and probably not.

[Deleted User]

emo72 wrote: »

its wrong. why should women be treated as less than men. its bull****. same in catholic church, women cant be priests, its bull****. its bull**** no matter what religion it is. does your religion treat women as second class citizens? then its bull****.

You equate that with gang rape?

Seriously?

Here's one small difference. I don't know one woman who wants to be a priest...

Irish Guitarist

I remember a couple of years ago one of the moderators of the Islam forum posted a thread about when it's okay to hit your wife. I can't find that thread but here's an older one with similar comments including one that explains a man can only beat his wife as a last resort with a small object like a toothbrush to tell her he wants a divorce. There are also people explaining how in court if you have female witnesses you need two of them for their testimony to be equal to that of one mans.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055198196

Atlantic Dawn

It's their culture.

eviltwin

Islam is extreme and its worrying that so many people from Western backgrounds convert. If you are born and bred in a middle eastern country and all you have is experience of women as second class citizens then its no surprise that attitude continues, its people growing up in a culture where everyone is considered equal who convert that are a surprise to me. Although Western Muslims aren't of that mindset its still a faith that has old fashioned views about the roles of men and women but then you can say that about any faith really. Look at how Catholicism has treated women over the years, look at its current attitudes to women's role and its attitude to gay people and yet people embrace it and don't see it as a problem.

Teyla Emmagan

I'm just eternally grateful not to have been born in one of these places. Look at India, the endless stories about the rape of women coming out of there would turn your hair white. And then if she complains you throw battery acid in her face. One 17 year old had her hand lopped off yesterday for "rejecting a suitor". You are living under constant threat unless you're a man. It must be like feeling you are in a war zone all your life. All these men who think they are entitled to sex.

The attitudes are beyond me. Ireland is a friggin Utopia in comparison.

vicwatson

OP, you forgot to say that 6 teenagers have been arrested and there is widespread condemnation of the attack in Morocco, the girl was a mentally challenged girl which make her even more vunerable, digusting behaviour no matter what

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/morocco-mass-sit-in-protest-sexual-assault-woman-bus-teenage-boys-casablanca-a7908241.html

No excuse for it no matter what, they are pure neanderthals.

Donal55

Good auld Saudi, in charge of women's rights for the UN.

You couldn't make this sh1t up!

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It's their culture.

Prophet's a paedophile.

Richard Hillman

Societies around the world are all modernizing and changing to be more inclusive of females.........except one. One culture is remarkably regressing.

There is a consensus between more ignorant and uneducated right-on types that the Islamic World will come onside within a generation or two. When in fact it was a generation or two when the were nearly on a level playing field. We have taken 2 steps forward and they have taken 6-7 steps backward.

Media types won't call it out either. They are under some crazed illusion that it has always been like that. Or at least try and portray it that way.

Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Egypt and many more have dived dramatically backwards for woman over the last 50 years. Indonesia and Malaysia are starting to catch too.

[Deleted User]

MightyMandarin wrote: »

In Germany it's common to drink tea without milk. I lived there for a year and I can say I still have nightmares of mates drinking cup after cup of disgusting black tea.

Ha, i love tea without milk. Funny world

fyfe79

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Egypt and many more have dived dramatically backwards for woman over the last 50 years. Indonesia and Malaysia are starting to catch too.

True. Massive regression in those countries. It has to be noted though that western foreign policy (the US in particular) must have contributed to this, at least indirectly. Clandestine overthrowing of modern socialist leaders and filling the power vacuum with despots has led to an increase in anti-western feeling in these areas of the world. And what better way to display this than to essentially enact a form of anti-feminism and subjugate women.

Still, the lefties would have you believe that everything will be grand in the next generation. It's always grand, isn't it? Nice.

Donald Trump

Something something wall something Mexico paying something

suicide_circus

Donald Trump wrote: »

Something something wall something Mexico paying something

Change the record, Donald

Samaris

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I can't find that thread but here's an older one with similar comments including one that explains a man can only beat his wife as a last resort with a small object like a toothbrush to tell her he wants a divorce.

How..why..what?

How do you even beat someone with a toothbrush? "That's a toothbrush. Am I to take it from your poking me that you want a divorce?"

??

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Prophet's a paedophile.

Just to comment on that, by the same regard Joseph was a paedophile, since Mary is traditionally held to be a young teenager. And I dread you finding out that thirteen or fourteen was a common age for girls to be married off throughout our history. Upper class girls could be married off even sooner for alliances or property. I'm afraid a good portion of your male ancestors were paedophiles or at the least hebephiles if that makes you feel better.

That aside.

One of the worst aspects is that women in a few Islamic countries actually did have a decent share of rights before the latest round of fundamentalist revolutions. The punishments are extremely harsh though and it is hard to fight back against it from within. People do; Malala Yousafezi is a shining example, despite the punishment that those in charge felt wanting education mandated. There are others; you don't hear about feminism in these places because it's far away and doesn't get much coverage (plus it could be deadly to those actually working on the ground).

Womens rights tend to be gained despite religion rather than because of it. Western society regularly used religious reasoning to suppress women as well, but fortunately, a move towards keeping state and religion separate has helped to emancipate western women. That has not held true in many Islamic states yet. Mind you, we had to have centuries of bloody fighting to sort that out, and it is quite possible that Islam in general needs a reformation. Christianity updated itself through reformation and factions (and fighting). Judaism tends to quietly update itself in the background, not least as until very recently, Jews didn't really get the option to go enforcing their own more extremist views on anyone. Islam has managed the factioning part pretty well, but seems to making slow going on any sort of reform.

Given women have had rights before and were working towards gaining equality* religion or not, it is the fundamentalists that are the problem - same as in most religions. Religion is ridiculously easy to subvert - primarily because it gains its authority through an invisible higher power and cleaves to the words in holy books rather than the message. I do believe we would see similar (within our own laws) attitudes if fundamentalists were allowed to win power in - well, the US is probably the best example of large-scale religious western fundamentalism. Civil rights are fragile and can be removed. Most western states, fortunately, have safeguards in place, but they are not absolute either. This is why people are raging, for instance, about white supremacists.

I absolutely acknowledge that the religious books of Islam propagate anti-women attitudes. I also acknowledge that the fundamentalist leaders base their prejudices on backup from the Koran, use it as a weapon or for control, however you want to put it. However, it cannot be used as the sole excuse and reason (bar that people are afraid of Muslims in general at the moment) because we have seen freedom in these states, and because we had many of the same messages in our holy books and still managed to undo centuries of disrespect and oppression. We started off in a better place though - civil war and turmoil in many Islamic countries is pretty difficult to work with.

This is what fundamentalists do. They are rigid and fixed in their ideas at the extreme ends of whatever argument they pick. Their ideas tend to be unpopular outside a strictly homogenous population (which the ideals generally benefit for support). Fundamentalists do seek to reduce the power of other actors if they feel they can't trust them to empower their fundamentalist notions. Islam is culturally dangerous because of the fundamentalists currently pushing their brand of malevolence. And because it's a religion and religions are abusable by the corrupt and intolerant.

It would also be nice if the west would stop holding up Saudi Arabia, who are as big a bunch of muckstirrers in the Middle East as Russia is in the west.

*Albeit behind other cultures and I don't think that any Islamic country had equality in the same way that secular western states had achieved. Mind you, we got started "early", if a century ago counts as "early" in our general history.

Donald Trump

Samaris wrote: »

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I can't find that thread but here's an older one with similar comments including one that explains a man can only beat his wife as a last resort with a small object like a toothbrush to tell her he wants a divorce.

How..why..what?

How do you even beat someone with a toothbrush? "That's a toothbrush. Am I to take it from your poking me that you want a divorce?"

??

You laugh now. I don't know if there's any truth to the unsubstantiated rumour that Chris Evan's turned muslim and his wife similarly laughed

She's not laughing now I tell ya....... But that might alternately be because she realized that she married a ginger

Witchie

I'm living in Malaysia at the moment and the fact that it is an Islamic country is only apparent to me by the "non-halal" meat shops in supermarkets and the price of alcohol. Sure there are a lot of women wearing the veil but also many that aren't. Things are apparently going in the wrong direction but that, in turn, is igniting a counter-movement so it will be interesting to see how things develop in the coming months.

Women's march in September

Ubbquittious

vicwatson wrote: »

OP, you forgot to say that 6 teenagers have been arrested and there is widespread condemnation of the attack in Morocco, the girl was a mentally challenged girl which make her even more vunerable, digusting behaviour no matter what

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/morocco-mass-sit-in-protest-sexual-assault-woman-bus-teenage-boys-casablanca-a7908241.html

No excuse for it no matter what, they are pure neanderthals.

No need to be besmirching the neanderthals' good name by comparing them to these boys