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atheists.. pee me off
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The simple fact is that as a non-Catholic parent of a non-Catholic child I am in fact subject to daily discrimination. There is no public secular schooling option in this country and even if there was it would amount to segregated education and my child being marked out as different in ways that he shouldn't be because we don't belong to the majority faith. I'm not particularly ok with being a discriminated against minority and I'm really, really not okay with my son being. And I get that it's hard for people to get their heads around the fact that people like me and my family are minorities being discriminated against. We tend to be, on average, well educated, middle-class people who live lives loaded with privilege. Most people look at us as kicking up a fuss and we tend to see ourselves that way and find it very difficult, often impossible, to ask for even our own children to be treated as equals in state institutions. Especially when we know that if they are treated as equals, they are held up as different in a social setting where it's very, very difficult to be different and increases the chances of the child being subject to social exclusion and bullying.
I see it all the time with parents forced to choose between baptism or not having a school place if their area is over-subscribed. Applying for school places for newborns if they are lucky enough to live near an ET that the commute is feasible. Then having to choose between a daily school commute to a school where their child will be closer to equal (but not necessarily equal as multi-dom rarely includes no religion) or letting their child go to the local school with their neighbourhood friends but where they will never be equal no matter how nicely they are treated. Choosing between whether to opt out of religion which isn't really possible due to the integrated curriculum or to just keep the head down and have their 4 year olds taught that you should let the stranger who visits you alone in bed at night do what they want to your body even if you are scared. Or maybe be told by the school that they have no right to remove them from religion even though that's unconstitutional, so they are forced through deceit or fear of repercussions if they fight it, to have their kids sit through learning other people's beliefs as facts. Or they have to fight and fight for their rights and even deal with teachers who out and out bully their kids and make them do all sorts of religious work that they know damn well their parents don't want them doing. It's ****ed up, it's not right and it's (part of) why so many of us are so pissed off and angry.
You see, that's what I should have told all those moaning about the recent Charlottesville events. People moaning about those celebrating the historical and on-going "discrimination" of Blacks and Jews. Don't they know who the real victims of discrimination are? That group who have suffered the most and continue to suffer the most on a daily basis? Those middle-class non-Catholics in Ireland who each want the educational system and local schools to be designed precisely to suit their, and only their, idea of what it should be like.
In all seriousness, get over yourself.0 -
Depends on the industry, surely.
The charity sector is one.
The legal professional gets a lot of business from the church.
People dress up for weddings, communions, confirmations, baptisms, funerals, novenas etc.
All this feeds into the hotel, clothing, gifts etc. sector.
The buildings themselves make use of the construction sector.0 -
Good job showing your complete ignorance about the topic..... unsurprisingly your name fits your knowledge
You understand Chaplains can be of any faith and don't have to be catholic?
They can be Protestant, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Catholic etc. it doesn't matter.
The point the poster is making is that catholic priests always get these jobs above any other faiths
If only I could find examples of non-Catholic Chaplains then I could prove your statement wrong. But what is the likelihood of that? I mean surely yourself and the original poster are experts in the area and monitor the appointments of all chaplains to any institution in the country? Surely you wouldn't be just talking bullshit without any actual facts could you?
I mean if only I could find even one example but I suppose that it would be impossible. I can only dream about such a thing
( https://www.tcd.ie/Chaplaincy/ )0 -
Donald Trump wrote: »You see, that's what I should have told all those moaning about the recent Charlottesville events. People moaning about those celebrating the historical and on-going "discrimination" of Blacks and Jews. Don't they know who the real victims of discrimination are? That group who have suffered the most and continue to suffer the most on a daily basis? Those middle-class non-Catholics in Ireland who each want the educational system and local schools to be designed precisely to suit their, and only their, idea of what it should be like.
In all seriousness, get over yourself.
So why should it suit Catholics' idea of what it should be like instead?
Why can people who are so flippin' insistent that their child make communion and confirmation not do it themselves, outside of school time, so that months aren't wasted in 2nd and 6th class preparing for it?0 -
So why should it suit Catholics' idea of what it should be like instead?
Why can people who are so flippin' insistent that their child make communion and confirmation not do it themselves, outside of school time, so that months aren't wasted in 2nd and 6th class preparing for it?
If Catholics want to come together, fundraise and build a school then let them. If Protestants want to do it them more power to them. If "Flying spaghetti moster-ians" want to get together and do it then let them.
In short, if you and sufficient other people want to set up a school with a particular, or no, ethos, then you are more than welcome to. If you want to sit on the floor crying and whinging "waa waa waa ..... but but the bad Catholics built a school, why I can't I forcefully take it from them, erase their ethos and superimpose my own on it without doing any work" then don't expect any sympathy.
I'm not sure what type of school you went to but in the one that I went to months weren't wasted on preparing for Communion and Confirmation. Perhaps your school had a preponderance of "special" kids that needed more time?0 -
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mrkiscool2 wrote: »Haha what? Are you actually trolling or do you believe what you've just written? Because if you do, I feel sorry for how indoctrinated you are. The church is almost wholly to blame for the Magadelene Laundries. Like, let's look at what happened if you got pregnant out of wedlock.
You had 2 options. Either a. enter the laundry or b. be shamed, have no support, be brought up as a sinner and basically be shunned by your community. Believe it or not, the church had massive sway over each and every parish at the time. It wasn't until the 70s that this power started to wane. These women had no choice.
That's not to mention what happened in these institutions, the way dead babies were put into mass graves, how the mother would most likely never see her child again. Those weren't the fault of parents or grandparents, but the church. Finally, sexual abuse against young children by priests definitely is no-one's fault but those priests, and the cover-up is wholly on the church.
But all of this power was based on popular support. Which is all that Prickly Pete is saying- the church was able to do these things because most people were in agreement.0 -
But they dont' build schools, not any more. The government builds and pays them them, funded by all tax payers regardless of religious affiliation, then religions feel that they should be given the schools, and children not of that religion are discriminated against.Donald Trump wrote: »If Catholics want to come together, fundraise and build a school then let them. If Protestants want to do it them more power to them. If "Flying spaghetti moster-ians" want to get together and do it then let them.
In short, if you and sufficient other people want to set up a school with a particular, or no, ethos, then you are more than welcome to. If you want to sit on the floor crying and whinging "waa waa waa ..... but but the bad Catholics built a school, why I can't I forcefully take it from them, erase their ethos and superimpose my own on it without doing any work" then don't expect any sympathy.
I'm not sure what type of school you went to but in the one that I went to months weren't wasted on preparing for Communion and Confirmation. Perhaps your school had a preponderance of "special" kids that needed more time?
If the RCC wants to build a school, pay the staff, pay the overheads, then they can teach their religion, but if the STATE builds the school, pays the wages, pays the bills, then it is not acceptable for one religious group to then take over and use it as a place to indoctrinate children who, for the large part, have no other option but to go there, or to discriminate against what teachers can be hired there on religious grounds.
Want a religious school? No worries: your religion can fund it 100%.
Don't want to fund it? Grand, then it's a secular school.0 -
Donald Trump wrote: »If Catholics want to come together, fundraise and build a school then let them. If Protestants want to do it them more power to them. If "Flying spaghetti moster-ians" want to get together and do it then let them.
Catholics in Ireland didn't 'come together'. The State, in partnership with the Church that dictated both spiritual and cultural life in Ireland, imposed Catholic schools on all citizens bar a very few private, and some public schools founded by other religious organisations.
Considering that an Irish citizens right to a State education is held so dear, it's surprising that the power is given to agents of a religion to decide whether or not those entitled citizens are going to avail of that right, if they don't jump through the hoops of their making.
You have a bizarrely simplistic way of seeing things, but then I get the impression that the current set up suits you, and you see no reason why it should change to suit anyone else.In short, if you and sufficient other people want to set up a school with a particular, or no, ethos, then you are more than welcome to. If you want to sit on the floor crying and whinging "waa waa waa ..... but but the bad Catholics built a school, why I can't I forcefully take it from them, erase their ethos and superimpose my own on it without doing any work" then don't expect any sympathy.
I don't imagine many people are interested in your sympathy. Interesting how you characterize people who don't agree with you, and put words in their mouths. The State supported the foundation of religious run schools, it's not an equal playing field if they don't also support the foundation of schools without a religious ethos. You know that though, right?I'm not sure what type of school you went to but in the one that I went to months weren't wasted on preparing for Communion and Confirmation. Perhaps your school had a preponderance of "special" kids that needed more time?
Snideness never made a flimsy argument sound more substantial.0 -
But they dont' build schools, not any more. The government builds and pays them them, funded by all tax payers regardless of religious affiliation, then religions feel that they should be given the schools, and children not of that religion are discriminated against.
If the RCC wants to build a school, pay the staff, pay the overheads, then they can teach their religion, but if the STATE builds the school, pays the wages, pays the bills, then it is not acceptable for one religious group to then take over and use it as a place to indoctrinate children who, for the large part, have no other option but to go there, or to discriminate against what teachers can be hired there on religious grounds.
Want a religious school? No worries: your religion can fund it 100%.
Don't want to fund it? Grand, then it's a secular school.
You need to realise that your problem is with the state. That is if your issue is actually the availability of schools. Of course you could just be a typical anti-Catholic which most people who try to use the subject as a vehicle to disguise their motives are.
If the Catholics/Protestants/Jews/Scientologists built a building 50 years ago, they still own it. If you want to build a different one with your friends then build it yourself or ask the state to do so. Obviously since you will have a school that is individually tailored to each of the "majority" then you will of course attract all the students. All those parents will now have the option not to send their kids to the evil Catholics. And as capitation grants are given on per-head basis, you will get all that lovely money to pay teachers rather than the evil Catholics.
But you don't want to do that. It would be analogous to me deciding that I want my kid doesn't want to play sport so I'm going to demand that the local GAA grounds and clubhouse are seized and that no Gaelic games can be played any more and that it can be converted to a community space (for me and whatever I like)
For the record, plenty of Catholic schools buildings are still being built and even more are being renovated. As are other denominations and educate togethers etc. It is stupid to suggest otherwise.0 -
Yes they did. Most Catholic primary schools are set up and run by local parish groups which fundraise in conjunction with that parish.Catholics in Ireland didn't 'come together'.
Hmm, and how did those other religious schools manage to survive? I mean there are plenty of Protestant schools at least. Did they disguise themselves as factories or maybe revert to the earlier (ironically Catholic) methodology of hedge schools?The State, in partnership with the Church that dictated both spiritual and cultural life in Ireland, imposed Catholic schools on all citizens bar a very few private, and some public schools founded by other religious organisations.
I know. It is terrible the way that so many atheist, protestant. and jewish people on the Ireland of Ireland are denied access to any form of education by the Catholics. You should get the UN onto that.Considering that an Irish citizens right to a State education is held so dear, it's surprising that the power is given to agents of a religion to decide whether or not those entitled citizens are going to avail of that right, if they don't jump through the hoops of their making.
Who said anything suits me? I never said it suited me. Why should it? I don't expect it to. People who moan about things not being set up to suit themselves are going to forever moan.You have a bizarrely simplistic way of seeing things, but then I get the impression that the current set up suits you, and you see no reason why it should change to suit anyone else.
Step 1: They get to commandeer the local catholic school
Step 2: They remove all aspects of religion from the curriculum
Step 3: Mother A wants her angel to study Chinese
Step 4: Mother B wants her angel to study French so that she can use it on the holidays instead and not to be wasting time studying stupid Chinese
Step 5: Whoever loses the popular argument above immediately takes umbrage and want to remove all languages from all school curricula
Step 6: Rinse and repeat
Quite frankly, I don't care.
I don't imagine many people are interested in your sympathy.
get the bodies and the support together and they will support you. instead of getting in your excuses first why you don't bother trying. Same as all those people we know who live their lives on the dole complaining about how "ah shure I wouldn't have been given a chance to do college" or whatever. Put made up obstacles obstacles in your own way all you wantInteresting how you characterize people who don't agree with you, and put words in their mouths. The State supported the foundation of religious run schools, it's not an equal playing field if they don't also support the foundation of schools without a religious ethos. You know that though, right?Snideness never made a flimsy argument sound more substantial.
Maybe you also went to one of those schools where they had special students that needed months of training for Communion and Confirmation.
The days of having to learn the Catechism by rote went out donkey's years ago.
At most it takes a few hours here and there over the course of a week or so. And the most part of that is in the training for how to prepare and how to behave at a formal occasion. Which is general training for life. Some might have little jobs to do. They are still learning.0 -
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But they dont' build schools, not any more. The government builds and pays them them, funded by all tax payers regardless of religious affiliation, then religions feel that they should be given the schools, and children not of that religion are discriminated against.
If the RCC wants to build a school, pay the staff, pay the overheads, then they can teach their religion, but if the STATE builds the school, pays the wages, pays the bills, then it is not acceptable for one religious group to then take over and use it as a place to indoctrinate children who, for the large part, have no other option but to go there, or to discriminate against what teachers can be hired there on religious grounds.
Want a religious school? No worries: your religion can fund it 100%.
Don't want to fund it? Grand, then it's a secular school.
While I get the apparent logic of this in the Irish context, I think the state has a valid interest in the quality of education provided for all its citizens.
In my view that means that people should not be able to get together with other people to created any kind of school they want.
This has been quite damaging in the U.S., where such things as charter schools and school vouchers have allowed people to do exactly that: essentially withdrawing from the rest of the country and from responsible civic participation.0 -
This has been quite damaging in the U.S., where such things as charter schools and school vouchers have allowed people to do exactly that: essentially withdrawing from the rest of the country and from responsible civic participation.
There is nothing wrong in principle with the idea of charter schools. If there is an issue it is with regulation and oversight rather than the concept itself. They often fill gaps in poor standard state free education. The US is not like Ireland. The area in which you live can drastically differ in terms of the standard of education and associated access to facilities that your child will receive. The state should fix their end, but if they don't then let the people do it themselves and try to cut out inefficiencies and waste0 -
No I #ucking well won't. The educational system discriminates against my child and thousands of children like him. He is not treated as an equal in this country and that's really, really not ok. Just because the discrimination they face is less than that faced by others doesn't make it ok, or mean those effected by it should just shut up. Atheist parents don't want the schools designed around their own wants (that's actually what the Catholics have) we just want our children to be equal.Donald Trump wrote: »You see, that's what I should have told all those moaning about the recent Charlottesville events. People moaning about those celebrating the historical and on-going "discrimination" of Blacks and Jews. Don't they know who the real victims of discrimination are? That group who have suffered the most and continue to suffer the most on a daily basis? Those middle-class non-Catholics in Ireland who each want the educational system and local schools to be designed precisely to suit their, and only their, idea of what it should be like.
In all seriousness, get over yourself.
Funnily enough though, I was talking about this with a couple of black friends from a southern US state and they couldn't get over how messed up it is.0 -
No I #ucking well won't. The educational system discriminates against my child and thousands of children like him. He is not treated as an equal in this country and that's really, really not ok. Just because the discrimination they face is less than that faced by others doesn't make it ok, or mean those effected by it should just shut up. Atheist parents don't want the schools designed around their own wants (that's actually what the Catholics have) we just want our children to be equal.
You should start making notes. Take daily camera footage of his life. It will come in handy in a few years when they make the blockbuster movie of your son's one-boy struggle against the evils of society.
You just better hope that I don't steal the idea of making a film. I mean, there was a Protestant school near me that had a nicer area for playing in for the kids. The cheek of those bastards. Discriminating against me by having a nicer playground.Funnily enough though, I was talking about this with a couple of black friends from a southern US state and they couldn't get over how messed up it is.
OMG!!! if Black friends from the US South agreed with you then it must be so.
I mean I wouldn't have thought otherwise that your friends opinions were relevant but now that I learn that they are Black and from the South, it suddenly adds incontrovertible proof to whatever nonsense you are spouting.
Did they step back and take a look at themselves and say "jaysus lads. All this time we thought that we had it bad what with all the history of slavery and discrimination. When all the while there were mammies and daddies in Ireland who had to live close to schools that were run by religious orders. Maybe we should stop going on about our insignificant-in-comparision issues"
"Some of my best friends are atheist"0 -
atheists pee me off too, so do muslims, scienthology, buddists, jews Christians etc . see I believe in God, in fact Im sometimes very angry with him, sometimes I thank him, sometimes I ignore him and sometimes I desperately pray to him but I don't follow any one religion cause they are all paying homage to the same being .0
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Donald Trump wrote: »If Catholics want to come together, fundraise and build a school then let them. If Protestants want to do it them more power to them. If "Flying spaghetti moster-ians" want to get together and do it then let them.
In short, if you and sufficient other people want to set up a school with a particular, or no, ethos, then you are more than welcome to. If you want to sit on the floor crying and whinging "waa waa waa ..... but but the bad Catholics built a school, why I can't I forcefully take it from them, erase their ethos and superimpose my own on it without doing any work" then don't expect any sympathy.
I'm not sure what type of school you went to but in the one that I went to months weren't wasted on preparing for Communion and Confirmation. Perhaps your school had a preponderance of "special" kids that needed more time?
Why can't you teach your own children about the magic crackers, wanting tax payers to fund it is what you would probably call political correctness.0 -
Why can't you teach your own children about the magic crackers, wanting tax payers to fund it is what you would probably call political correctness.
Hey don't worry about it. As is evident, there is a wide range of ability across the population and within schools too. Some kids will understand it and some are frankly too thick to ever get it, even as they grow into adulthood.
Some parents will think "what's the point of teaching art, sure he's not going to be a painter/decorator and anyway that finger painting of me is shite and looks nothing like me" without realising that giving kids an initial nudge towards understanding the concept and appreciating of the significance of art itself is the real education.
Likewise, most of the great philosophers have theorized on the concept of religion. Regardless of their own personal religion, or none. They realise that the concept of religion as a human, partly social, construct is important and is one that merits study in order to understand ourselves.
If to you, the concept of religion means "magic crackers" then that is your own ignorance and has as much relevance to me as the person who thinks art is smudged finger paintings. I don't care to what extent of your ignorance or education extends.
While your next step is now to backtrack and say "but but ...eh..eh. ehhh... well I'm ok with the concept of religion being thought but just not the magic crackers bit" what you do is expose yourself as just being anti-Catholic for some reason. Why? I don't know and again I don't care. Maybe it's self-hatred or an inbuilt resentment for people close to you for whom it meant a lot and therefore in rebelling against that religion, you are rebelling against them. Maybe you failed at some things in your own life and you aren't where you thought that you would be and want to take that frustration out by blaming someone or something else. Who knows.
But given that religion is an important construct to be aware of, even from a purely sociological standpoint, it merits inclusion on the curriculum. Feel free to start up a school trying to discuss in details the religious musings of Nietzsche or Kant to 6 year olds but you'll find you are wasting your time. they're not going to understand you. However they might be able to learn about the traditions and symbolism of one particular religion, whatever that may be. So in the same way that you need to start with finger painting for art, start their discussions there. And if Catholics want to get together to teach their kids a consistent curriculum then that's fine with me. The same as if Muslims or Jewish or Hindu want to do it. Who gives a shit except for ignorant people for whom all this stuff passed over their own heads.0 -
skylight1987 wrote: »atheists pee me off too, so do muslims, scienthology, buddists, jews Christians etc . see I believe in God, in fact Im sometimes very angry with him, sometimes I thank him, sometimes I ignore him and sometimes I desperately pray to him but I don't follow any one religion cause they are all paying homage to the same being .
Are you telling me that our Lord Jesus Christ is the same being as Lord Brahma?
That's crazy stuff. The former is a kindly bearded man who got into a spot of bother with the Romans a couple of thousand years ago, give or take. He's now ensconced 'upstairs' for his sins in that great nightclub in the sky, and good luck to him. While the latter has five fúcking heads for christsakes, or certainly did have till Shiva lopped one off leaving him with a paltry four. So there's one major difference right there....or three if you will.
And ok so they both share the first name 'Lord', but that doesn't make them the same, what if they both shared the surname 'Lord' would that make them ''the same being'', eh, I don't think so.
Think journalist Miriam Lord and up and coming American country singer Billy Lord, are they the same person...well maybe but that's the exception proving the rule.
My argument still holds, I think...Billy and Miriam Lord notwithstanding.
Raise your game.0 -
Donald Trump wrote: »But given that religion is an important construct to be aware of, even from a purely sociological standpoint, it merits inclusion on the curriculum.
Logically then, the actual religion per se shouldn't matter to informing about this important construct.
We should randomly pick the religion that is used as the vehicle for the teaching... ?"To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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Donald Trump wrote: »The same as if Muslims or Jewish or Hindu want to do it. Who gives a shit except for ignorant people for whom all this stuff passed over their own heads.
It didn't pass over my head. It went into my head. I read books about the Spanish Inquisition and the burning of witches... "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Then I actively deleted it from my head. The ignorant are those who haven't read those books."To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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Problem is that people can be right arseholes. Especially when it comes to what they believe / think.
Let's look at it from both sides:
- Religious person can be 'holier than thou' spouting all vile (talking about really religious people here) being gay is against God, atheists are going to hell etc. Pisses people right off.
Likewise an excessive atheist can be a wanker themselves... "oh so you believe in that flying spegatti monster in the sky?", "I don't care about your beliefs... I want all religion to be abolished" etc.
Point is... Both sides can be assholes. Little respect of each others views goes a long way. But no chance of that sadly.
As for my view on this? We're all gonna die one day. So live you life and who gives a bollocks what another thinks.0 -
Logically then, the actual religion per se shouldn't matter to informing about this important construct.
We should randomly pick the religion that is used as the vehicle for the teaching... ?
Yeah, get together with all the other parents and randomly pick it if you want. As long as you all come to a majority or mutually agreed decision. In order to work and have structure it will likely to be fixed into the ethos of the school. If you pick a religion that doesn't eat meat for example and teaches that eating meat is bad, you will need to enforce that somewhat as a rule within the organization because otherwise you will confuse the 7 year olds.
It is likely that you will settle on one of the major common religions in Ireland that people are already familiar with. Which will leave you back where you started. Because people won't choose what they don't know themselves. At least you'll know there are Communion and Confirmation in a Catholic school......you might not want to be taken by surprise later if you realise that the one you chose has even more ceremonies that have to be followed.
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Donald Trump wrote: »Yeah, get together with all the other parents and randomly pick it if you want. As long as you all come to a majority or mutually agreed decision.
It is likely that you will settle on one that people are already familiar with. Which will leave you back where you started.
Do you even understand what random means???"To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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Logically then, the actual religion per se shouldn't matter to informing about this important construct.
We should randomly pick the religion that is used as the vehicle for the teaching... ?
Sure. But as part, say, of a history curriculum.
As you realize, but others clearly don't, there is a huge difference between teaching about religion and teaching religion0 -
Do you even understand what random means???
Yes. but try randomly picking a religion and then try to getting the other couple of hundred odd parents to agree to it
Because if you think that the eejits moaning about Catholicism being taught aren't going to go mental at having to satisfy some obscure religion's traditions and ceremonies for their kids then you might be in for a shock - "What do you mean we need to bring our kids to camp out of 2 weeks at the top of a mountain when they hit 12 so that they can go through the sun-god's cleansing process" :pac:0 -
I don't have a problem with people wanting nothing to do with religion and not wanting it impacting their lives, that's fair. What bothers me is how naieve people can be thinking that the end of religion would resolve or reduce the human instinct for power, corruption, greed and conflict...
I have never heard anybody say anything close to that. They have said it has and does cause unnecessary conflicts which is completely true. Even today people fund causes wanting a conflict in Israel to bring about the end of the world.0 -
Sure. But as part, say, of a history curriculum.
Ironic username to be honest.
Teach art as part of history too. Sure aren't all the famous painters in the past? :pac:
But at least we appeared to have reached a consensus that the "atheist view" on completely removing anything to do with religion from the curriculum is a stupid idea.0 -
utmbuilder wrote: »What is the deal with atheists campaigning for their beliefs and lack of.
Surely if you dont believe in something you just chill out shut up and go by your daily business.
They threat atheism like their new own religion, wanting to squash anything in their sight or their children sight which resembles anyone elses beliefs.
Is it just them thinking they are superior to everyone else and know everything?
I am no holy joe, but these guys pee me off.
Couldn't give a shoite about you and your beliefs pal.
I do care about living in a secular state though.0 -
Donald Trump wrote: »Hey don't worry about it. As is evident, there is a wide range of ability across the population and within schools too. Some kids will understand it and some are frankly too thick to ever get it, even as they grow into adulthood.
Some parents will think "what's the point of teaching art, sure he's not going to be a painter/decorator and anyway that finger painting of me is shite and looks nothing like me" without realising that giving kids an initial nudge towards understanding the concept and appreciating of the significance of art itself is the real education.
Likewise, most of the great philosophers have theorized on the concept of religion. Regardless of their own personal religion, or none. They realise that the concept of religion as a human, partly social, construct is important and is one that merits study in order to understand ourselves.
If to you, the concept of religion means "magic crackers" then that is your own ignorance and has as much relevance to me as the person who thinks art is smudged finger paintings. I don't care to what extent of your ignorance or education extends.
While your next step is now to backtrack and say "but but ...eh..eh. ehhh... well I'm ok with the concept of religion being thought but just not the magic crackers bit" what you do is expose yourself as just being anti-Catholic for some reason. Why? I don't know and again I don't care. Maybe it's self-hatred or an inbuilt resentment for people close to you for whom it meant a lot and therefore in rebelling against that religion, you are rebelling against them. Maybe you failed at some things in your own life and you aren't where you thought that you would be and want to take that frustration out by blaming someone or something else. Who knows.
But given that religion is an important construct to be aware of, even from a purely sociological standpoint, it merits inclusion on the curriculum. Feel free to start up a school trying to discuss in details the religious musings of Nietzsche or Kant to 6 year olds but you'll find you are wasting your time. they're not going to understand you. However they might be able to learn about the traditions and symbolism of one particular religion, whatever that may be. So in the same way that you need to start with finger painting for art, start their discussions there. And if Catholics want to get together to teach their kids a consistent curriculum then that's fine with me. The same as if Muslims or Jewish or Hindu want to do it. Who gives a shit except for ignorant people for whom all this stuff passed over their own heads.
My issue with teaching religion (which really means teaching Catholicism) is that they are bloody children, you could teach them that the moon is made of cheese at that age and they will believe it.
Most adults haven't a clue what it means to be a catholic so why bother pretending with children?0 -
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Donald Trump wrote: »Ironic username to be honest.
Teach art as part of history too. Sure aren't all the famous painters in the past? :pac:
But at least we appeared to have reached a consensus that the "atheist view" on completely removing anything to do with religion from the curriculum is a stupid idea.
It's important to teach kids for example about why they should wash their hands. This doesn't mean I'm in favour of germs."To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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