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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion
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If they are as bad as people say then the NTA have the right to remove routes before the term is finished... I believe they need to miss the targets multiple times before that can happen.0
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It's an extremely common practice used by many operators in many countries when running services on less frequent routes, local routes, shorter routes and ones that only run at certain times of the day with highly variable levels demand throughout the day to make best use of driver and vehicle resources.
It doesn't work so well for radial routes that are going through the city-centre because of the high frequency nature of these routes and the demand patterns justify an all day frequent services so it's easier to schedule driver and vehicle usage around them. This is why you don't see Dublin Bus using interworking on their high frequency all day radial routes.
Despite popular misconception though, even Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann have had duties where more than one route is worked as a particular duty, especially the peak-only routes and the Xpressos and still do and even some of the routes that are worked by Go-Ahead now used to frequently be interworked with other routes when they were operated by Dublin Bus as well.
If a bus arrives to the terminus after the time it's supposed to leave that stop, it will be late. That will be the case whether it has the same number on the front as it had on it's journey to that terminus or it has a different number on. You still have a late bus, the only difference is the route it's running on, so either way, someone will have a lengthy wait.
Expressos on Dublin Bus are practically spare buses to get used as needed, they do one set run in the am/pm then contact the controller and work ad hoc as needed. As for Bus Eireann a driver may do a lap from Busaras to Cavan then break on return to Dublin then do a trip to Trim after the break its not comparable to the Go Ahead system. Also Go Ahead fail to regulate their drivers if they are running late its just a work away keep going attitude.0 -
If they are as bad as people say then the NTA have the right to remove routes before the term is finished... I believe they need to miss the targets multiple times before that can happen.
Simply won't hapoen as by doing so the NTA would be admitting they made a mistake by outsourcing the routes, as bad as Go Ahead maybe with regard to missing services they certainly won't have routes removed from them.0 -
soundman45 wrote: »Simply won't hapoen as by doing so the NTA would be admitting they made a mistake by outsourcing the routes, as bad as Go Ahead maybe with regard to missing services they certainly won't have routes removed from them.
They won the tender for 5 years if they they perform well after 5 years then they have the option of a 2 year extension. Either way the routes will go out back to tender in either 3 or 5 years time for now depnding on GAIs performance a tender which GAI are not guaranteed to win if their performance is sub par or the tender they submit is less competitive than another operator.
DB submitted a tender for the routes now operated by GAI and they lost as their offer was less competitive. I'm not sure how you can jump to the conclusion that the service provided by GAI is worse than that operated by DB when the service as a whole has improved from a passenger point of view has improved a lot over the last 2 or 3 years.0 -
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They won the tender for 5 years if they they perform well after 5 years then they have the option of a 2 year extension. Either way the routes will go out back to tender in either 3 or 5 years time for now depnding on GAIs performance a tender which GAI are not guaranteed to win if their performance is sub par or the tender they submit is less competitive than another operator.
DB submitted a tender for the routes now operated by GAI and they lost as their offer was less competitive. I'm not sure how you can jump to the conclusion that the service provided by GAI is worse than that operated by DB when the service as a whole has improved from a passenger point of view has improved a lot over the last 2 or 3 years.
At no stage did I say the service Go Ahead provide is worse than Dublin Bus0 -
soundman45 wrote: »At no stage did I say the service Go Ahead provide is worse than Dublin Bus
So why were you saying it was a mistake that the routes were put out to tender then?0 -
soundman45 wrote: »Expressos on Dublin Bus are practically spare buses to get used as needed, they do one set run in the am/pm then contact the controller and work ad hoc as needed. As for Bus Eireann a driver may do a lap from Busaras to Cavan then break on return to Dublin then do a trip to Trim after the break its not comparable to the Go Ahead system. Also Go Ahead fail to regulate their drivers if they are running late its just a work away keep going attitude.
DB do it on normal services too. The 61 is interworked with the 14, the 47 is interworked with the 46a, 25a and 25b are interworked, when the 184 was with DB it was interworked with the 145, when the 185 was with DB it was interworked with the 84, when the 33a was with DB it was interworked with the 33.
There is a chart of routes here which shows that interworkings are actually quite prevalent in DB.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/irishtransport/dublin-bus-garage-and-pvr-breakdown-by-route-t11140.html0 -
soundman45 wrote: »Expressos on Dublin Bus are practically spare buses to get used as needed, they do one set run in the am/pm then contact the controller and work ad hoc as needed. As for Bus Eireann a driver may do a lap from Busaras to Cavan then break on return to Dublin then do a trip to Trim after the break its not comparable to the Go Ahead system. Also Go Ahead fail to regulate their drivers if they are running late its just a work away keep going attitude.
Radial, high frequency and high demand routes with demand throughout the day, which are the majority of routes that Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann operate, are far more suited to duties that only include that route or minor variations as their high level of service all day makes it far easier to design schedules around them that make best use of driving and vehicular resources.
Shorter, local and orbital routes which only run to a non regular timetable, are restricted to peak time only services or a small amount of services per day, can have highly variable levels of demand and just running buses on those routes would involve out of service running to/from depots to comply with driver hour regulations for example. The timetables are almost certainly designed in a way to cut dead running out and get the maximum number of driving in service time out of their staff's overall driving hours.
Low frequency routes around Blanchardstown for example on Dublin Bus were interworked for as long as I can remember. The 237/238/239/270 saw various inner workings through their lives and further back the 38C and 236 was interworked for years and the resulting reliability wasn't great, especially on the 38C morning peak vehicles that would often be late for their first 236 lap, but it would have made absolutely no sense for Dublin Bus to do it any other way. .0 -
So why were you saying it was a mistake that the routes were put out to tender then?
I didnt, I said if the NTA were to withdraw the routes from GA then they would be admitting they made a mistake, I never said putting the routes out to tender was a mistake in fact I believe it was the correct decision and actually would like to see Go Ahead be successful.0 -
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soundman45 wrote: »I didnt, I said if the NTA were to withdraw the routes from GA then they would be admitting they made a mistake, I never said putting the routes out to tender was a mistake in fact I believe it was the correct decision and actually would like to see Go Ahead be successful.
Ok thanks for clearing that up0 -
Radial, high frequency and high demand routes with demand throughout the day, which are the majority of routes that Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann operate, are far more suited to duties that only include that route or minor variations as their high level of service all day makes it far easier to design schedules around them that make best use of driving and vehicular resources.
Shorter, local and orbital routes which only run to a non regular timetable, are restricted to peak time only services or a small amount of services per day, can have highly variable levels of demand and just running buses on those routes would involve out of service running to/from depots to comply with driver hour regulations for example. The timetables are almost certainly designed in a way to cut dead running out and get the maximum number of driving in service time out of their staff's overall driving hours.
Low frequency routes around Blanchardstown for example on Dublin Bus were interworked for as long as I can remember. The 237/238/239/270 saw various inner workings through their lives and further back the 38C and 236 was interworked for years and the resulting reliability wasn't great, especially on the 38C morning peak vehicles that would often be late for their first 236 lap, but it would have made absolutely no sense for Dublin Bus to do it any other way. .
It's common with BE on the city services in places like Limerick, Galway and Waterford as well I believe. It's not in anyones interest bar maybe the driver in some cases to have buses and drivers running either out of service or sitting idle.
The biggest cost of operating a bus for the company is the driver not the bus or the fuel so it's in the companies interest for the bus to be earning revenue which means out on the road not paying the driver to sit at the terminus or to drive OOS between the garage and the terminus. For the passenger a bus that sitting sitting idle or driving OOS is not a bus that's going to get them where they need to be.0 -
DB do it on normal services too. The 61 is interworked with the 14, the 47 is interworked with the 46a, 25a and 25b are interworked, when the 184 was with DB it was interworked with the 145, when the 185 was with DB it was interworked with the 84, when the 33a was with DB it was interworked with the 33.
There is a chart of routes here which shows that interworkings are actually quite prevalent in DB.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/irishtransport/dublin-bus-garage-and-pvr-breakdown-by-route-t11140.html
Most of those are interworked on the drivers shift but the actual bus stays on route, the 47 will operate as a 47 all day but the driver may do 46a before break and 47 after. so it's not really the same as what GAI do.0 -
Dublin bus are in trouble too with some routes not meeting their targets
The 7 in particular. The NTA are threatening to tender it out because the times and targets are all over the place
The manager of the depot was seeing at the terminus one day have words with all the drivers.
So not all nice and rosey for dublin bus either.0 -
Buses missing times and targets are the fault of poor scheduling not reflecting the real world.
If a bus cannot adhere to a schedule, especially in the current climate with reduced traffic, then there is something wrong with the scheduling. The NTA threatening to transfer operation from DB to GA won't make that problem disappear.0 -
StreetLight wrote: »Buses missing times and targets are the fault of poor scheduling not reflecting the real world.
If a bus cannot adhere to a schedule, especially in the current climate with reduced traffic, then there is something wrong with the scheduling.
I am not aware of the specific issues with the 7 route so it's hard to say for sure what the problem is with that route which is leading to vehicles being late. Whilst running time issues is a common cause of such issues, it is not always the reason. Operational and staffing issues, roadworks, changes to traffic flow, leaving the depot late etc are also some of the others that can effect these.
For example having caught vehicles at Dun Laoghaire station over the past couple of years, there is a tendency for Dublin Bus drivers to congregate there and chat resulting in 46As leaving 5 and on one occasion I've seen 10 minutes late and also Go-Ahead Ireland drivers I have seen doing the same, too busy involved in conversation to realise it's time for their bus to depart.
There are also a very small number of drivers who are driving very slowly. Last summer I was on a 17A where a driver got off the bus at Blanchardstown and high fived a colleague at Blanchardstown Shopping Centre, saying he now doesn't have to work the trip back because of late running and I have heard such discussions on the 38/A as well, all be it some years ago.
However if the 7 is on the same diagrams with the same running time as pre-covid with there being very light traffic, there shouldn't really be a serious problem with that route. It should be more reliable than ever unless there is extra one way systems or a dramatic increase in accidents. The radial and cross city routes should be the ones that benefit the most from a reduction in traffic because they would be the ones going through the heart of the city where more time is spent in traffic than the orbitals who do not touch such busy areas.The NTA threatening to transfer operation from DB to GA won't make that problem disappear.
If a regulator doesn't have any standards or metrics that it's contracted operators are required to achieve, then it quickly essentially becomes a race to the bottom in terms of providing a quality service as there is no incentive to provide one when you know however shoddy service you provide it won't matter.
If any operator fails to provide a quality of service that it is contracted to do so, of course the NTA will investigate and they should do this for all transport operators in receipt of public funds and treat them all equally. Any operator of a service should be allowed of course to present their side on why this is and the NTA should listen to this and assess if it has any merit.0 -
Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »Dublin bus are in trouble too with some routes not meeting their targets
The 7 in particular. The NTA are threatening to tender it out because the times and targets are all over the place
The manager of the depot was seeing at the terminus one day have words with all the drivers.
So not all nice and rosey for dublin bus either.
Dublin Bus are mainly missing their targets because of buses running ahead of schedule according to the often (unrealistic) pressit box timings and because drivers won't stick to the practice of driving at dangerously low speeds or pull in and wait at bus stops (often blocking traffic) for minutes at a time.
Also the NTA are classing many trips incomplete because drivers on journeys returning to the depot (breaking or finishing) will often turn short if they have no passengers on and they know they won't pick anyone else up and don't drive to the last stop.
So it's not always because buses are running late or fail to operate.0 -
Tickityboo wrote: »Also the NTA are classing many trips incomplete because many drivers on journeys returning to the depot (breaking or finishing)often will turn short if they have no passengers on and they know they won't pick anyone else up and don't drive to the last stop.
The NTA absolutely should throw the book at any operator doing that.
The above paints Dublin Bus drivers in extremely poor light and is completely unacceptable. It basically says that the driver returning to the depot early is more important than ensuring that absolutely every person waiting for a bus on that timetabled departure is able to avail of it. It shows a complete lack of customer focus, the kind of practices I thought DB had eradicated.
Unless a driver is able to see every single stop remaining on a route using cameras at the stop, how do they know for sure there is nobody waiting? They might presume that because they have never seen someone there in recent days or weeks it's a safe bet, but what happens to poor Mary who, following lifting of restrictions wants to go to visit her relatives for first time and finds the bus doesn't arrive, is it her fault because she wasn't there the week before?
Dublin Bus are paid by the NTA to run a certain number of services on a certain number of routes in full and should be doing so because that is what their contract says. If they do not wish to do so then they are in breach of contract. It's an open and shut case so it's no wonder they have been taken to task over it.
There are mechanisms in NTA contracts to claw back funding where companies have not delivered the appropriate kms operated and I imagine that is what is happening here. Not driving to the last stop is only really forgivable if you get to the last but one stop and the bus is empty.0 -
I am not aware of the specific issues with the 7 route so it's hard to say for sure what the problem is with that route which is leading to vehicles being late. Whilst running time issues is a common cause of such issues, it is not always the reason. Operational and staffing issues, roadworks, changes to traffic flow, leaving the depot late etc are also some of the others that can effect these.
For example having caught vehicles at Dun Laoghaire station over the past couple of years, there is a tendency for Dublin Bus drivers to congregate there and chat resulting in 46As leaving 5 and on one occasion I've seen 10 minutes late and also Go-Ahead Ireland drivers I have seen doing the same, too busy involved in conversation to realise it's time for their bus to depart.
There are also a very small number of drivers who are driving very slowly. Last summer I was on a 17A where a driver got off the bus at Blanchardstown and high fived a colleague at Blanchardstown Shopping Centre, saying he now doesn't have to work the trip back because of late running and I have heard such discussions on the 38/A as well, all be it some years ago.
However if the 7 is on the same diagrams with the same running time as pre-covid with there being very light traffic, there shouldn't really be a serious problem with that route. It should be more reliable than ever unless there is extra one way systems or a dramatic increase in accidents. The radial and cross city routes should be the ones that benefit the most from a reduction in traffic because they would be the ones going through the heart of the city where more time is spent in traffic than the orbitals who do not touch such busy areas.
I haven't heard anything about the 7 being unreliable at least not anymore than any other DB or GAI route. I can't see the NTA putting just one route on it's own out to tender if they were I would think it's more likely they would tender it as part of a bundle of routes.
I haven't noticed any particular issues with drivers congregating and chatting at the 46a terminus at least not anymore so than any other bus terminus or bus station in any other city in any other country in the world that I have visited. It's far from an exclusively Irish thing for bus drivers to congregate at bus termini, bus stations or handover points.
If it's a particular issue then the drivers in question should be reprimanded for such behaviour. I suspect the reason why you may have found this to be an issue is because DB used to employ an inspector at this terminus assumedly to monitor bus flow at the terminus so this likely kept drivers in line.0 -
I haven't noticed any particular issues with drivers congregating and chatting at the 46a terminus at least not anymore so than any other bus terminus or bus station in any other city in any other country in the world that I have visited. It's far from an exclusively Irish thing for bus drivers to congregate at bus termini, bus stations or handover points.
If it's a particular issue then the drivers in question should be reprimanded for such behaviour. I suspect the reason why you may have found this to be an issue is because DB used to employ an inspector at this terminus assumedly to monitor bus flow at the terminus so this likely kept drivers in line.
Lets be clear - I have no issue with staff talking to each other and this is something that goes on everywhere as you say, but it should not impact the bus leaving the time that it is scheduled to do so.
It was morning peak services where I used to see this, often you'd see the real time board (which was correct with the printed timetable) counting down to the departure and a group of drivers would still be talking and the driver would often not get on until after it should have already departed so you were normally at least 4-5 minutes late.
A friend of mine who worked in Deansgrange also used to see this phenomenon a few years ago from the station. I haven't took the 46A for about 9 months though so not sure if it's still happening or is something that has since been addressed.0 -
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I think part of the problem here is the timetable/real time is still set for pre corona times. So if a bus is giving 45 min say to get into the city it's maybe no with much less traffic only taken 25/30. So some drivers could well be leaving a few min late and still getting in way early. Does Not make it right but would help explain it.
I think it's silly the NTA expecting buses to operate at a much slower speed due to less traffic. I mean one of the few advantages buses have over the dart or luas is when traffic is low they can get in much faster, and say someone who normally gets a 07:20 in busy times could get away with getting a 07:40 bus when traffic is not bad. But if the NTA get there was the bus will be going at the slowest speed regardless of the traffic.0 -
I just want to confirm, I never said in my post that they were in trouble with the 7 in particular because of lateness or no shows
But I do have it confirmed they are in serious trouble of losing it to tender if they don't sort it out soon.
The 7 was a route I used to drive myself and I'm still in contact with the lads on it, it is confirmed in trouble to the point the manger of the depot had to speak to every driver on the route0 -
The 7 had never run properly, to the point most users just turned up at the stop and hoped. Maybe it had improved since I used it regularly but it was awful for years.Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »Dublin bus are in trouble too with some routes not meeting their targets
The 7 in particular. The NTA are threatening to tender it out because the times and targets are all over the place
The manager of the depot was seeing at the terminus one day have words with all the drivers.
So not all nice and rosey for dublin bus either.
My basic understanding was NTA provided routes and timetables with flexibility for a company to adjust withing reason. I think this was pointed out when GAI got the 17 that they were trialling the run during the summer, about the only time you had a hope of it running on time or betterStreetLight wrote: »Buses missing times and targets are the fault of poor scheduling not reflecting the real world.
If a bus cannot adhere to a schedule, especially in the current climate with reduced traffic, then there is something wrong with the scheduling. The NTA threatening to transfer operation from DB to GA won't make that problem disappear.
Really? I seen plenty during the lockdown slowing to way below the speed limit (without issue). There might be stretches they can't but there are few routes where they don't have stop points that are safe to hold too. I know they were below the speed limit as I was overtaking them on my push bike with ease.Tickityboo wrote: »Dublin Bus are mainly missing their targets because of buses running ahead of schedule according to the often (unrealistic) pressit box timings and because drivers won't stick to the practice of driving at dangerously low speeds or pull in and wait at bus stops (often blocking traffic) for minutes at a time.
Also the NTA are classing many trips incomplete because drivers on journeys returning to the depot (breaking or finishing) will often turn short if they have no passengers on and they know they won't pick anyone else up and don't drive to the last stop.
So it's not always because buses are running late or fail to operate.
If nothing else, this really shows how much the NTA, DB and others should be lobbying for more his lanes and restricting private motor vehicle use.0 -
Lets be clear - I have no issue with staff talking to each other and this is something that goes on everywhere as you say, but it should not impact the bus leaving the time that it is scheduled to do so.
It was morning peak services where I used to see this, often you'd see the real time board (which was correct with the printed timetable) counting down to the departure and a group of drivers would still be talking and the driver would often not get on until after it should have already departed so you were normally at least 4-5 minutes late.
A friend of mine who worked in Deansgrange also used to see this phenomenon a few years ago from the station. I haven't took the 46A for about 9 months though so not sure if it's still happening or is something that has since been addressed.
Is it possible that those drivers your talking about were actually adhering to their duty card and the bus that had been due to depart 5 mins earlier didnt operate for whatever reason.0 -
The NTA absolutely should throw the book at any operator doing that.
The above paints Dublin Bus drivers in extremely poor light and is completely unacceptable. It basically says that the driver returning to the depot early is more important than ensuring that absolutely every person waiting for a bus on that timetabled departure is able to avail of it. It shows a complete lack of customer focus, the kind of practices I thought DB had eradicated.
Unless a driver is able to see every single stop remaining on a route using cameras at the stop, how do they know for sure there is nobody waiting? They might presume that because they have never seen someone there in recent days or weeks it's a safe bet, but what happens to poor Mary who, following lifting of restrictions wants to go to visit her relatives for first time and finds the bus doesn't arrive, is it her fault because she wasn't there the week before?
Dublin Bus are paid by the NTA to run a certain number of services on a certain number of routes in full and should be doing so because that is what their contract says. If they do not wish to do so then they are in breach of contract. It's an open and shut case so it's no wonder they have been taken to task over it.
There are mechanisms in NTA contracts to claw back funding where companies have not delivered the appropriate kms operated and I imagine that is what is happening here. Not driving to the last stop is only really forgivable if you get to the last but one stop and the bus is empty.
Nearly all of the time its just the last stop thats missed. But that last stop could mean getting into half an hours worth of traffic. Missing your break and having the next trip completely cancelled due to the driver not getting his full break.0 -
Tickityboo wrote: »Dublin Bus are mainly missing their targets because of buses running ahead of schedule according to the often (unrealistic) pressit box timings and because drivers won't stick to the practice of driving at dangerously low speeds or pull in and wait at bus stops (often blocking traffic) for minutes at a time.
Also the NTA are classing many trips incomplete because drivers on journeys returning to the depot (breaking or finishing) will often turn short if they have no passengers on and they know they won't pick anyone else up and don't drive to the last stop.
So it's not always because buses are running late or fail to operate.
I don't really understand how driving slow or pulling in at bus stops for extended periods in order to stick to the timetable or maintain even headway is dangerous at least not for the bus and it's passengers. It could only be classed as dangerous due to impatient motorists who when given an inch will take a mile.
If people plan their properly and that goes for both motorists and bus passengers buses not running early or maintaining even headway should not be an issue.0 -
I could understand not stopping at stops where they are in the traffic lane/bike lane but most routes have one or two stops where this could be done with minimal issue. It might not be every stop but they would have the opportunity.I don't really understand how driving slow or pulling in at bus stops for extended periods in order to stick to the timetable or maintain even headway is dangerous at least not for the bus and it's passengers. It could only be classed as dangerous due to impatient motorists who when given an inch will take a mile.
If people plan their properly and that goes for both motorists and bus passengers buses not running early or maintaining even headway should not be an issue.0 -
If the 7 is in trouble at DB; it wouldn't make any sense to have it switched to GAI & leave the 7a with DB.
You couldn't allocate buses on the 7a into situations, while it was still with DB, going into Loughlinstown Park & then back out again while they're OOS on the journey back to Donnybrook as it wastes more fuel while carrying less passengers than it is required to carry under the NTA contract. It also cannot be allowed to do any duties if the 7 was with GAI. It would make more sense, from the NTA's pov, if both the 7/7A went to GAI to allow for more seamless interworking while in the CC. It would be a much simpler situation to allow more interworking to be retained if the 7 switches over to GAI so it can switch over with the 7a very easily at Mountjoy Square.
Also as both the 7 & 111 routes terminate at Brides Glen Luas Station; both of them can be allowed to be interworked at that terminus. However the 111 does operate with the streetlites on a number of occasions per day on it's T/T which are not suitable for the 7 because, if you're a bus operator, you couldn't officially be allowed to run single deckers frequently on cross-city routes. The 111 in that case would have to be converted to double deck operation like the 59 & 102.
The cross city routes nowadays would have to remain double deck operated routes because of higher volumes of people travelling around the CC.0 -
dublinman1990 wrote: »If the 7 is in trouble at DB; it wouldn't make any sense to have it switched to GAI & leave the 7a with DB. It would more sense if both 7/7A went to GAI to allow for more seamless interworking while in the CC. That's an advantage that will be allowed to be retained if the 7 switches over to GAI in that they can be allowed to be interworked with duties on the 7a, if that went to GAI as well, very easily at Mountjoy Square.
Also as both the 7 & 111 routes terminate at Brides Glen Luas Station. Both of them can be allowed to be interworked at that terminus. However the 111 can operate at times with the streetlites which are not suitable for the 7 because you couldn't officially be allowed to run single deckers frequently on cross-city routes. The 111 in that respect would have to be converted to double deck operation like the 59 & 102.
The cross city routes nowadays would have to remain as double deck operated routes.
It's nothing more than a rumour at this stage0 -
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