Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Qrt

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Yup. Basically all the ex-DB routes and the 175.

That’s a pretty crap name, since when is Rialto Outer Dublin like? (Glaring at the 17 here)

punisher5112

Qrt wrote: »

That’s a pretty crap name, since when is Rialto Outer Dublin like? (Glaring at the 17 here)

Not cross city...

Qrt

punisher5112 wrote: »

Not cross city...

I don’t follow.

Joker2019

Qrt wrote: »

That’s a pretty crap name, since when is Rialto Outer Dublin like? (Glaring at the 17 here)

Why do you have a better name you can suggest?

punisher5112

Qrt wrote: »

I don’t follow.

The routes don't go through or really near the city centre hence the name given...

Qrt

Joker2019 wrote: »

Why do you have a better name you can suggest?

Eh, Dublin Orbital Bus Services?

punisher5112 wrote: »

The routes don't go through or really near the city centre hence the name given...

To me, the "Outer Dublin Metropolitan Area" would take in places like Drogheda, Navan, Newbridge, Naas, etc. That's why I had to look up ODMA, sounds a lot more suited to the recently-transferred Kildare routes. ODMA doesn't mention at all that they don't go into the city centre.

Oh well, semantics and all that.

punisher5112

Qrt wrote: »

Eh, Dublin Orbital Bus Services?



To me, the "Outer Dublin Metropolitan Area" would take in places like Drogheda, Navan, Newbridge, Naas, etc. That's why I had to look up ODMA, sounds a lot more suited to the recently-transferred Kildare routes. ODMA doesn't mention at all that they don't go into the city centre.

Oh well, semantics and all that.

Then it wouldn't be Dublin.

Better Than Christ

Qrt wrote: »

Eh, Dublin Orbital Bus Services?



To me, the "Outer Dublin Metropolitan Area" would take in places like Drogheda, Navan, Newbridge, Naas, etc. That's why I had to look up ODMA, sounds a lot more suited to the recently-transferred Kildare routes. ODMA doesn't mention at all that they don't go into the city centre.

Oh well, semantics and all that.

'Metropolitan' denotes a city. So 'Outer Dublin Metropolitan Area' refers to the fact that the areas in question (Tallaght, Dun Laoghaire, Blanchardstown, etc) are on the outskirts of the city. Although 'metropolitan' isn't the first word that comes to mind when you enter Newtownmountkennedy (until the 1990s, Dublin Bus weren't even allowed to operate a regular service there because Bus Éireann considered it their 'patch').

Qrt

Better Than Christ wrote: »

'Metropolitan' denotes a city. So 'Outer Dublin Metropolitan Area' refers to the fact that the areas in question (Tallaght, Dun Laoghaire, Blanchardstown, etc) are on the outskirts of the city. Although 'metropolitan' isn't the first word that comes to mind when you enter Newtownmountkennedy (until the 1990s, Dublin Bus weren't even allowed to operate a regular service there because Bus Éireann considered it their 'patch').

I’d be of the opinion that “metropolitan” takes in the city and its satellite towns and commuter belt towns. Sure the longest tube line in London is the metropolitan line. The term is ****e.

tabbey

Qrt wrote: »

the longest tube line in London is the metropolitan line.

The Metropolitan line was never tube, it is cut and cover, as is the District line and the Circle which runs around both Metropolitan and District.

Just because it is part of the London Underground is no excuse for tarring it with the same brush as the Central, Bakerloo, Victoria, Jubilee, Northern.

The Metropolitan once reached Verney Junction in leafy Buckinghamshire, it was a civilised commuter line, not to be compared with deep level tubes.

GT89

Wasn't aware until recently that the NBRU were now active in GAI

http://www.nbru.ie/join-nbru/nbrugoaheadinformation/

Better Than Christ

GT89 wrote: »

Wasn't aware until recently that the NBRU were now active in GAI

http://www.nbru.ie/join-nbru/nbrugoaheadinformation/

Very active. They've done more for Go Ahead's drivers in a couple of months than SIPTU did in almost two years.

soundman45

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Very active. They've done more for Go Ahead's drivers in a couple of months than SIPTU did in almost two years.

Whats improved so far?

devnull

GT89 wrote: »

Wasn't aware until recently that the NBRU were now active in GAI

http://www.nbru.ie/join-nbru/nbrugoaheadinformation/

Seems to be a lot of mentions of Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann there....

Was this the same NBRU who said that they were not interested in representing workers from Go-Ahead Ireland as they were a private company when it was announced that an agreement had been done between SIPTU and Go-Ahead Ireland?

Either there has been a dramatic change of mind, or the statement that they released was sour grapes that SIPTU were chosen rather than than actually bieng true?

Better Than Christ

soundman45 wrote: »

Whats improved so far?

So far, various health and safety issues, and they've been far better than SIPTU at advising/representing drivers on disciplinary matters.

devnull wrote: »

Either there has been a dramatic change of mind, or the statement that they released was sour grapes that SIPTU were chosen rather than than actually bieng true?

SIPTU were chosen by the company, not by the drivers. The NBRU's 'change of mind' came about as a result of huge demand from drivers.

devnull

Better Than Christ wrote: »

SIPTU were chosen by the company, not by the drivers. The NBRU's 'change of mind' came about as a result of huge demand from drivers.

The NBRU said at the time that they were not interested in representing the members of Go Ahead Ireland and made it appear that there wasn't a choice to make and SIPTU was the only option that was on the table to the workers.

Are you saying that actually the NBRU were an option for the company but the NBRU decided to give the public line that they were not interested, because ithat would make for better PR than admitting that GAI had chosen to be represented by someone else?

Either way, it's interesting that the NBRU appear to have made statements in the past which their actions seem to contradict. I wonder if they have been influenced by the lure of subs from GAI members or it's just a case as I outlined in previous paragraph.

Better Than Christ

devnull wrote: »

The NBRU said at the time that they were not interested in representing the members of Go Ahead Ireland and made it appear that there wasn't a choice to make and SIPTU was the only option that was on the table to the workers.

Are you saying that actually the NBRU were an option for the company but the NBRU decided to give the public line that they were not interested, because ithat would make for better PR than admitting that GAI had chosen to be represented by someone else?

Either way, it's interesting that the NBRU appear to have made statements in the past which their actions seem to contradict. I wonder if they have been influenced by the lure of subs from GAI members or it's just a case as I outlined in previous paragraph.

I'm saying that over 200 drivers (dissatisfied with SIPTU) approached the NBRU, asking for representation, and they have agreed to represent them.

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

.

Either way, it's interesting that the NBRU appear to have made statements in the past which their actions seem to contradict. I wonder if they have been influenced by the lure of subs from GAI members or it's just a case as I outlined in previous paragraph.

No need to wonder at all.

ALL Trades Unions are influenced by subscription income....just as with every representative body everywhere.

Put simply,as GAI had already reached a single-union agreement with SIPTU regarding the Busdriving grade (Maintenance/Admin were seperately represented),it represented a fait accompli for any succesful new-entrant to that company.

Now however,with the operation bedded down,and perhaps a change of focus in management practices and intentions,the inevitable proccess begin.

It is no secret that some drivers felt/feel dissatisfied with the level and ability of representation available to them through their Company's existing IR procedures.

GAI being a subsidiary of the Go-Ahead group,are no newcomers to employee representation and they engage with Unions and Trade Associations throughout their operations,so I rather suspect they'll adapt and move on with this also.

Right now,there's a lot more to worry folk than the arrival of an NBU negotiator at the door....:)

Jamie2k9

Does the General Secretary of NBRU know they also represent Go-Ahead or are they trying to keep it a secret.....to date all media interviews have only discussed CIE as has all letters send to company CEOs. Then again Go-Ahead management may have put everything in place to protect staff quickly.

Nice for them to have Go-Ahead members as pawns to advance other members interests in future.

AlekSmart

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Does the General Secretary of NBRU know they also represent Go-Ahead or are they trying to keep it a secret.....to date all media interviews have only discussed CIE as has all letters send to company CEOs. Then again Go-Ahead management may have put everything in place to protect staff quickly.

Nice for them to have Go-Ahead members as pawns to advance other members interests in future.

I would imagine that the Single Union Agreement between GAI and SIPTU involved some form of signup on the part of the individual applicant.

I would therefore see this reticence as prudent until GAI clarify what their stance is with this new representative situation.

If,as has been quoted earlier in thread,this involves 200 employees,then describing them all as "pawns" appears a bit OTT,unless there is significant information or proof to support this ?

Believe it or not,Trades Union member ship is not quite in the same league as joining the Freemasons (for most) and individuals are free to switch between or leave Unions as they see fit.

Who knows,perhaps some of the "Pawns" may even be posting on this thread ?

Jamie2k9

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would imagine that the Single Union Agreement between GAI and SIPTU involved some form of signup on the part of the individual applicant.

I would therefore see this reticence as prudent until GAI clarify what their stance is with this new representative situation.

If,as has been quoted earlier in thread,this involves 200 employees,then describing them all as "pawns" appears a bit OTT,unless there is significant information or proof to support this ?

Believe it or not,Trades Union member ship is not quite in the same league as joining the Freemasons (for most) and individuals are free to switch between or leave Unions as they see fit.

Who knows,perhaps some of the "Pawns" may even be posting on this thread ?

Of course current and prospective members post here and those representing members read here regularly...

Campaigning so much against privatising of bus routes but now happy to make money from it. Might now even support more of it

GT89

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Of course current and prospective members post here and those representing members read here regularly...

Campaigning so much against privatising of bus routes but now happy to make money from it. Might now even support more of it

Their manifesto for GAI seems to be supportive of seeking parity with DB and BE. Fair enough surely they do the same job hence should get the same pay and entilements. Unfortunately for some we live in a world where workers try to better their lot. Workers are entitled to join the union they see best serves those needs.

Unions just like people and organisations also have to adapt and change throughout time even if the situation is not what they ideally would have desired.

AlekSmart

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Of course current and prospective members post here and those representing members read here regularly...

Campaigning so much against privatising of bus routes but now happy to make money from it. Might now even support more of it

Successfully campaigning I would suggest.

Currently,the Irish State remains in full possession of the routes and vehicles operating them.
It also,through the NTA,retains full control over the specifications to which these PSO routes operate.

As far as I'm aware,none of the Irish Trades Union movement favoured the introduction of Competitive Tendering into the Public Service Obligation arena and that position remains current today.

I'm assuming here,that the 200 (?) GAI staff who joined the NBU,were not press-ganged into the move and joined freely,of their own volition ?

The doom laden predictions,which were to be found throughout the CIE companies in the lead up to GAI's startup have not fully materialized.

In Dublin's case despite losing 10% of its route structure,DB has increased it's fleet size.
It has maintained and is currently increasing it's staff compliment across driving,engineering and support sections.
Core terms & Conditions of Employment have been maintained
It is operating enhanced services across it's core network and introducing more improvements going forward.
It is in the final stages of placing a new depot into service,with planning ongoing for another.
No Staff were required to transfer.
Displaced Long term appointed Staff were redeployed in a structured,agreed manner.
COVID permitting,all the current projections are based upon increased service levels and a continuing Dublin Bus presence throughout the sector.

So,accepting that the end result of Competitive Tendering has indeed been catastrophic,it's difficult to see how much worse it can become..?

Oh...I almost forgot Union membership across the Dublin PSO sector has increased...which to commercially focused operations,such as Trades Unions & Friendly Societies is an added financial bonus .

Therefore it can be seen that,strongly disagreeing with any particular method of operation,should not and does not,prevent any representative grouping from seeking to engage with Authority and Employers on matters relating to it's members employment.

Flexibility and resilience allowed both 'sides' to achieve a smooth transition into Ireland for Bus PSO related Competitive Tendering,and that is not something I see as changing in what is now a VERY rapidly developing scenario.

My glass remains half-full

Phat Cat

I see Go-Ahead Ireland still haven't improved their service in the slightest since the last time I travelled with them a few months ago.

I was due to catch the number 63 from Dún Laoghaire station at 15:35 this afternoon but it never showed up. I patiently waited for the 16:10 to come, that never showed up either. A group of people were now standing frustrated and hoping that the 16:40 would at least come on time. Nope, never arrived either. Finally the 17:10 bus arrived, the first 63 presumable since 15:05!!!

I called Go-Ahead Ireland and they gave me the usual excuse about bad traffic from the number 75 having a knock on effect etc etc but seriously, this service is absolutely abysmal. How on earth can this farce be let continue?

GT89

Phat Cat wrote: »

I see Go-Ahead Ireland still haven't improved their service in the slightest since the last time I travelled with them a few months ago.

I was due to catch the number 63 from Dún Laoghaire station at 15:35 this afternoon but it never showed up. I patiently waited for the 16:10 to come, that never showed up either. A group of people were now standing frustrated and hoping that the 16:40 would at least come on time. Nope, never arrived either. Finally the 17:10 bus arrived, the first 63 presumable since 15:05!!!

I called Go-Ahead Ireland and they gave me the usual excuse about bad traffic from the number 75 having a knock on effect etc etc but seriously, this service is absolutely abysmal. How on earth can this farce be let continue?

Likely reason = lack of drivers

Would you not have just gotten a 7 up to Brides Glen then the Luas to Carrickmines or Ballyogan or the 46a/75 to Bakers Corner, Deansgrange or Foxrock Church then walk. Most journeys on the 63 could probably be covered that way.

soundman45

Phat Cat wrote: »

I see Go-Ahead Ireland still haven't improved their service in the slightest since the last time I travelled with them a few months ago.

I was due to catch the number 63 from Dún Laoghaire station at 15:35 this afternoon but it never showed up. I patiently waited for the 16:10 to come, that never showed up either. A group of people were now standing frustrated and hoping that the 16:40 would at least come on time. Nope, never arrived either. Finally the 17:10 bus arrived, the first 63 presumable since 15:05!!!

I called Go-Ahead Ireland and they gave me the usual excuse about bad traffic from the number 75 having a knock on effect etc etc but seriously, this service is absolutely abysmal. How on earth can this farce be let continue?

Accident on 75 route between Rathfarnham and Dundrum badly affected the 75 today but that shows up again what a ridiculous system mixing routes is.

GT89

soundman45 wrote: »

Accident on 75 route between Rathfarnham and Dundrum badly affected the 75 today but that shows up again what a ridiculous system mixing routes is.

It is but likewise an accident on the M50 could also have a knock on effect on GAI services considering their shed is all the way out in Ballymount. Go-Ahead wanted an outbase in the old Ferry terminal which was a logical idea but was planning permission was refused.

Seems a few didn't like the need for the occassional concert or event or the possibility that maybe just maybe sometime in the future ferry services will one day return to DL far outweighs rhe efficient operation of bus services within the borough to some.

soundman45

GT89 wrote: »

It is but likewise an accident on the M50 could also have a knock on effect on GAI services considering their shed is all the way out in Ballymount. Go-Ahead wanted an outbase in the old Ferry terminal which was a logical idea but was planning permission was refused.

Seems a few didn't like the need for the occassional concert or event or the possibility that maybe just maybe sometime in the future ferry services will one day return to DL far outweighs rhe efficient operation of bus services within the borough to some.

No point blaming people or planning, Go Ahead should have had that sorted as soon as they tendered for those routes, they were caught out badly and its the customers that are suffering as a result. Its well known that planning permission or change of use if a facility is a long drawn out process here so the blame is firmly on Go Ahead on that front. No other company mixes buses and routes in the manner they do.

devnull

soundman45 wrote: »

No other company mixes buses and routes in the manner they do.

It's an extremely common practice used by many operators in many countries when running services on less frequent routes, local routes, shorter routes and ones that only run at certain times of the day with highly variable levels demand throughout the day to make best use of driver and vehicle resources.

It doesn't work so well for radial routes that are going through the city-centre because of the high frequency nature of these routes and the demand patterns justify an all day frequent services so it's easier to schedule driver and vehicle usage around them. This is why you don't see Dublin Bus using interworking on their high frequency all day radial routes.

Despite popular misconception though, even Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann have had duties where more than one route is worked as a particular duty, especially the peak-only routes and the Xpressos and still do and even some of the routes that are worked by Go-Ahead now used to frequently be interworked with other routes when they were operated by Dublin Bus as well.

If a bus arrives to the terminus after the time it's supposed to leave that stop, it will be late. That will be the case whether it has the same number on the front as it had on it's journey to that terminus or it has a different number on. You still have a late bus, the only difference is the route it's running on, so either way, someone will have a lengthy wait.

GT89

soundman45 wrote: »

No point blaming people or planning, Go Ahead should have had that sorted as soon as they tendered for those routes, they were caught out badly and its the customers that are suffering as a result. Its well known that planning permission or change of use if a facility is a long drawn out process here so the blame is firmly on Go Ahead on that front. No other company mixes buses and routes in the manner they do.

Well the statistics speak for themselves

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-transport-services/operator-performance-reports/