Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Danzy

VinLieger wrote: »

One is based off disagreeing about political beliefs and being against fascism, while their methods are flawed their goal is understandable.

The other is based off hating everyone of a specific skin colour, religion or birthplace. They have literally called for the death or internment of all members of these groups.

Their ideologies are in no way similar.

Their ideologies are largely different but there is an authoritarian control freak streak running through both, both come from the radical position of movements that have killed tens of millions.

They are closer to each other than either are to any democratic ideal.

Both need to be called out and opposed while they are still small.

20Cent

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

"" Which organization made this threat? Also, have you read her stuff........ Calling her a normal conservative is a stretch, she is definitely far right.""

It was Antifa organisations made such threats which in turn Berkeley canceled her talk due to safely concerns due to such threats.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/christinerousselle/2017/04/26/ann-coulter-cancels-berkeley-speech-n2318634

I read some of her stuff & watched her on fox a few times, I mightn,t agree with everything she says, but I wouldn,t label her as " fascist ".

"" Never heard of him, and what group did this? Going to guess he is at least far right. ""

There you go,that attitude is part of the problem a fellow you say you never heard of & you say "" Going to guess he is at least far right. "" 

Shortly afterwards a local Antifa group posted the following after the attack on Andre Bolt.

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"" Some of our family in solidarity were attacked by Andrew Bolt while they were protesting today. Why he isn't in prison for his horrendous, violent language yet is beyond me ""[/font]


[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]They describe people who attacked him as family & call assaulting someone as a form of protest .[/font]

fyi that Melbourne Antifa facebook group isn't real. It was set up to troll people. Next time have a proper look at a source to check it's not a piss take.

Sand

Manic Moran wrote: »

Attending a football game is not one of the most cherished rights enshrined in the Constitution of Europe. Not really the best of analogies.

I'm not a constitutional scholar but I don't believe there is any protection for the right of groups to meet up and attack each other with sticks on the basis of disagreeing politically. Political hooliganism is to political protest and activism what football hooliganism is to attending a football game.

The solution is the same, identify the troublemakers and crack down on them so they cant continue their behaviour. The Charlottesville cops sat on their hands and allowed running battles to develop between violent groups, which culminated in the death of a person. That cant be seen as a good response.

Tony EH

wes wrote: »

Russia once again enabling Nazi's:

Shunned by GoDaddy and Google, racist Daily Stormer moves to Russian domain

Ha ha...lol. :pac:

You really couldn't make that up.

Akrasia

Danzy wrote: »

Their ideologies are largely different but there is an authoritarian control freak streak running through both, both come from the radical position of movements that have killed tens of millions.

They are closer to each other than either are to any democratic ideal.

Both need to be called out and opposed while they are still small.

The Anti-Fa movement are largely anarchists, not communists. Anarchists have never been in power (not do they want to be) in order to commit the kinds of atrocities that Nazism and Stalinism were responsible for.

mynamejeff

Why do these movements feel that any one who doesn't immediately and loudly agree with their specific point of view is a target for attack .

it was the same in the water protest here in Ireland and even the gay marriage vote.

there is no room for debate of even discussion is that how far from rationality we have fallen ?

lots of these movements seem to attract weak minded individuals. it it easier to let some one else think for you and become part of a mob ?

Brian?

Akrasia wrote: »

The Anti-Fa movement are largely anarchists, not communists. Anarchists have never been in power (not do they want to be) in order to commit the kinds of atrocities that Nazism and Stalinism were responsible for.

Actually, anarchists ran parts of Spain during the Spanish civil war. Zero atrocities. It's actually quite difficult to commit any sort of large scale atrocity when you believe in a stateless society.

Brian?

mynamejeff wrote: »

Why do these movements feel that any one who doesn't immediately and loudly agree with their specific point of view is a target for attack .

it was the same in the water protest here in Ireland and even the gay marriage vote.

there is no room for debate of even discussion is that how far from rationality we have fallen ?

lots of these movements seem to attract weak minded individuals. it it easier to let some one else think for you and become part of a mob ?

Define "these movements" and then support your point with evidence. I feel you're generalising all left wing groups as being the same thing.

Tony EH

mynamejeff wrote: »

Why do these movements feel that any one who doesn't immediately and loudly agree with their specific point of view is a target for attack .

it was the same in the water protest here in Ireland and even the gay marriage vote.

there is no room for debate of even discussion is that how far from rationality we have fallen ?

lots of these movements seem to attract weak minded individuals. it it easier to let some one else think for you and become part of a mob ?

Oh please. Are you really trying to equate neo-nazis and anti-fa with the water protests and gay marriage supporters?

That's just crazy talk.

Danzy

Sand wrote: »

I'm not a constitutional scholar but I don't believe there is any protection for the right of groups to meet up and attack each other with sticks on the basis of disagreeing politically. Political hooliganism is to political protest and activism what football hooliganism is to attending a football game.

The solution is the same, identify the troublemakers and crack down on them so they cant continue their behaviour. The Charlottesville cops sat on their hands and allowed running battles to develop between violent groups, which culminated in the death of a person. That cant be seen as a good response.

Not only did they stand back but they also directed one group in to the other.

While it might have been a bit of a "let all these assholes kick the **** out of each other", it was horrendous policy.

People with hoodies covering their faces, whitehoods, masks and things that can be used as weapons should have been arrested and detained for a few hours.

There should have been restrictions on hoods that have militant right associations or Antifa associations from being allowed enter certain parts of the town.

It won't be the last event that leaves a death.

Antifa will now feel the need to step up to the plate to defend their control of the streets from the other gang and on and on.

For Reals

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

+ 1- as I argued in a post on this thread yesterday evening it coulda been easier if the issue was put to a local referendum/direct democracy & let people vote on it .

A democratically elected body already did and some had issue.

...in February, the City Council voted to remove the statue from the park. Opponents of the move sued in March, arguing that the city did not have the authority to do so under state law.
That court case is continuing, and the statue has remained in place. It was the focal point for a gathering held in May by the white nationalist Richard Spencer, who was among the demonstrators in Charlottesville this weekend. In June, the City Council gave Lee Park a new name — Emancipation Park.

‘Unite the Right’

The rally that descended into violence Saturday was organized by Jason Kessler, a relative newcomer to the white nationalist scene who is well known in Charlottesville, where he has fought against the city’s status as a sanctuary city for immigrants.

A self-described “journalist, activist and author,” Mr. Kessler also waged a monthslong online media campaign against Mr. Bellamy, whom he depicted as anti-white.

More recently, Mr. Kessler became involved in the fight against renaming Lee Park — one reason for the “Unite the Right” rally this weekend. The rally was by far Mr. Kessler’s largest undertaking yet. Last week, he won an injunction in federal court against the city, which had voted to revoke a permit for the rally.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/13/us/charlottesville-rally-protest-statue.html

mynamejeff wrote: »

Why do these movements feel that any one who doesn't immediately and loudly agree with their specific point of view is a target for attack .

it was the same in the water protest here in Ireland and even the gay marriage vote.

there is no room for debate of even discussion is that how far from rationality we have fallen ?

lots of these movements seem to attract weak minded individuals. it it easier to let some one else think for you and become part of a mob ?

FG made the IW thing a thing. Suited the propaganda IMO.
As with the above, people have a right to protest, even if bringing society backwards. The suffragettes are a good example of law breakers on the side of right, proven right. We need weed out the hate filled self interested fascists from the folk who disagree with government policy and want a change for forward not backward hate filled reasons.

mynamejeff

Brian? wrote: »

Define "these movements" and then support your point with evidence. I feel you're generalising all left wing groups as being the same thing.

Ok


groups who define them self's as " mass social movements"

ie but not limited to

My evidence is first hand personal experiences and observations with water protesters gay marriage black lives matter american nationalists antifa pro and anti islam groups pro and anti trump groups pro life and repeal the 8th groups supports of all irish political parties etc etc etc

wes

Brian? wrote: »

Actually, anarchists ran parts of Spain during the Spanish civil war. Zero atrocities. It's actually quite difficult to commit any sort of large scale atrocity when you believe in a stateless society.

Some of the Kurds fighting ISIS are also anarchists as well. They are doing a pretty good job or preventing atrocities by ISIS.

Help!!!!

Charlottesville was a Unite The Right march, even if the KKK/White supremacists etc hadn't have turned up Antifa & BLM would have attacked anyone else who was marching. Antifa & BLM call everyone who supports Trump or anyone that they disagree with as racist/fascists/Nazi. Even people who go to these marches for their own news channels get the same abuse.
The alt right had gotten a permit to march, the mayor then rescinded the permit. The alt right & ACLU took the mayor to court & the judge said it was unlawful to rescind the permit, so the march could still happen. There were agreements about policing, where the alt right would be & the police would be between them & the protesters. The morning of the march the alt right had to force their way to the park because the police were not there & there were different groups looking to prevent them. A little time later the mayor sent in the riot police to shut it down. Theres a video of Richard Spencer pleading with the cops to stop that they had a permit & legally they could be there. So the cops ended up pepper spraying the alt right & made them move, which made them walk straight into the protesters who had an assortment of weapons. The vice mayor of Charlottesville is a known supporter of a black supremacy group & is a known racist who hates whites so not surprised things ended the way they did.

A little background to what happened
Up until the elections you wouldn't really hear of KKK/Nazis in America but then the likes of antifa started attacking Trump supporters going to/from his rallies around the country. They started trying to close down talks by speakers they deemed as racist/fascist. So after a few weeks/months of being attacked Trump supporters started defending themselves. Also at the same time straight white males get the blame for all the evils in the world, from minorities/feminists whoever. Safe spaces for anyone but not whites & especially white straight men. So groups like the proud boys came about, not racist but men who like to hang out & be men over a beer. The alt left/liberals whatever decided things like the hand sign for OK was now for white power, milk which the Trump supporters were using to wash their faces after getting peppersprayed by antifa, became white power, Frogs? white power, white privilege etc. So a lot of whats happened in America comes down to liberals ( mainly white ) telling minorities that everything bad that happens in the world is the straight white males fault. You keep calling a person a racist/fascist & they will end up being that
Also the likes of antifa have ended up being the fascists they say they are against. Black lives matters can chant kill all whites or call for white mothers to abort their babies & theres no problem. The can attack & beat up women/elderly, no problem. They can burn cars, break businesses windows & loot, again no problem. Most men in Ireland would be treated as someone on the right because we like to spend time in pubs hanging round other men, watching sports
& then you have the main stream media constantly not telling both sides of the story. America is in a state right now partly to Trump but there are a lot more factors & parties responsible for the troubles they are having

mynamejeff

Tony EH wrote: »

Oh please. Are you really trying to equate neo-nazis and anti-fa with the water protests and gay marriage supporters?

That's just crazy talk.

with regard to the nature of their rabid anti discussion policy yes yes i am

wes

Help!!!! wrote: »

hadn't have turned up Antifa & BLM would have attacked anyone else who was marching.

Ignores actual terror attack, and complains about hypothetical attacks by other groups instead. This is some desperate stuff here lads. How hard is it to condemn Nazi's FFS.

Help!!!!

wes wrote: »

Ignores actual terror attack, and complains about hypothetical attacks by other groups instead. This is some desperate stuff here lads. How hard is it to condemn Nazi's FFS.

Not ignoring anything. So you are saying antifa did not attack anyone? I dont condone Nazi's or KKK but I also dont condone fascists who pretend to be fighting fascists by being fascists

Danzy

Tony EH wrote: »

Oh please. Are you really trying to equate neo-nazis and anti-fa with the water protests and gay marriage supporters?

That's just crazy talk.

On 2nd reading he has a point, there is an absolutism in politics now that was not there 20 or 30 years ago.

An unwillingness to debate or even be friends with someone who has different opinions and often over trivial things.

People are hyper-righteous these days, especially in America but that will come here, to a degree as well.

I've seen lads who stayed with the Provisional movement, their friends who went with the Reals, others who went this and that way and they all get on with it, even while in Dublin they would have been nuts at each other.

If lads who were lifelong committed activists, willing to put their life on the line for a belief can do it, then surely the rich kid activists playing radicals now can as well.

For Reals

mynamejeff wrote: »

with regard to the nature of their rabid anti discussion policy yes yes i am

What was the side against equality for gay couples that might have changed the minds of the decent humans who supported it? Was it fair and equitable for all?

InTheTrees

Help!!!! wrote: »

A little background to what happened
Up until the elections you wouldn't really hear of KKK/Nazis in America but then...

Sorry...what?

Up until what elections are you talking about?
Hopefully you're not suggesting 2016 because that would be...embarrassing.

Tony EH

Danzy wrote: »

On 2nd reading he has a point, there is an absolutism in politics now that was not there 20 or 30 years ago.

An unwillingness to debate or even be friends with someone who has different opinions and often over trivial things.

People are hyper-righteous these days, especially in America but that will come here, to a degree as well.

I've seen lads who stayed with the Provisional movement, their friends who went with the Reals, others who went this and that way and they all get on with it, even while in Dublin they would have been nuts at each other.

If lads who were lifelong committed activists, willing to put their life on the line for a belief can do it, then surely the rich kid activists playing radicals now can as well.

There was a shit ton of debate re: water protests and gay marriage. How the hell anyone could have missed it is beyond me.

It's not remotely in the same league.

wes

Help!!!! wrote: »

Not ignoring anything. So you are saying antifa did not attack anyone? I dont condone Nazi's or KKK but I also dont condone fascists who pretend to be fighting fascists by being fascists

Antifa don't engage in terrorism. The comparisons being made are absurd.

Again, I don't agree with how they do things, but the false equivalence being drawn is utterly absurd.

A peaceful protester was murdered. She was not antifa. Screaming antifa doesn't make that go away, it just make you look bad.

Help!!!!

InTheTrees wrote: »

Sorry...what?

Up until what elections are you talking about?
Hopefully you're not suggesting 2016 because that would be...embarrassing.

There were programs before the elections saying that the KKK were on the decline. I didn't say they were never talked about

Danzy

Help!!!! wrote: »

Not ignoring anything. So you are saying antifa did not attack anyone? I dont condone Nazi's or KKK but I also dont condone fascists who pretend to be fighting fascists by being fascists

Exactly, against assholes because they are assholes, not because of what they claim to follow or say they believe in.

The same individual type is in both but they just ended up on different sides.

Millwall Vs Chelsea hoods and Chelsea claiming to be better 'cause...

mynamejeff

For Reals wrote: »

What was the side against equality for gay couples that might have changed the minds of the decent humans who supported it? Was it fair and equitable for all?

your ignoring my point and actually helping me proving it.

there was no debate allowed is the point and anyone who tried to have one was shouted down


and im equating that to the viscous conflicts that are arising in america .

thats not politics its just thuggery on both sides

For Reals

Danzy wrote: »

On 2nd reading he has a point, there is an absolutism in politics now that was not there 20 or 30 years ago.

An unwillingness to debate or even be friends with someone who has different opinions and often over trivial things.

People are hyper-righteous these days, especially in America but that will come here, to a degree as well.

I've seen lads who stayed with the Provisional movement, their friends who went with the Reals, others who went this and that way and they all get on with it, even while in Dublin they would have been nuts at each other.

If lads who were lifelong committed activists, willing to put their life on the line for a belief can do it, then surely the rich kid activists playing radicals now can as well.

You're not far off the mark.
People have more access to information than ever before. Therefore they have access to all points of view and would form their own from that.
So obviously we see a rise in fear, a backlash from the vested interests reliant on the status quo to remain as is or roll back.
The last move in that regard would be to dispute or dismiss news as 'Fake' and excuse far right racists as a result of too much equality.
It would be laughably transparent if not happening in front of our very eyes.

InTheTrees

Help!!!! wrote: »

A little background to what happened
Up until the elections you wouldn't really hear of KKK/Nazis in America but then...

40,000 Klansmen parading down Pennsylvania avenue in Washington DC.

In the 1920's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnI8SUQPB4k

Help!!!!

wes wrote: »

Antifa don't engage in terrorism. The comparisons being made are absurd.

Again, I don't agree with how they do things, but the false equivalence being drawn is utterly absurd.

A peaceful protester was murdered. She was not antifa. Screaming antifa doesn't make that go away, it just make you look bad.

So why are they now classed as domestic terrorists in New Jersey?

Help!!!!

InTheTrees wrote: »

40,000 Klansmen parading down Pennsylvania avenue in Washington DC.

In the 1920's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnI8SUQPB4k

Are you mental, we all know the history I was referring to recent years. The KKK was reported to be on the decline

mynamejeff

Tony EH wrote: »

There was a shit ton of debate re: water protests and gay marriage. How the hell anyone could have missed it is beyond me.

It's not remotely in the same league.

no there wasn't

in reality anyone that didn't agree with the protest groups were shouted down

thats really what happened

celebrating the successes doesn't negate the tactics used to achieve them