Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

marcus001

InTheTrees wrote: »

I dont think most people care what label these people choose for themselves. Their ideology is what defines them.

Right but supremacism and nationalism are two different ideologies.

marcus001

jooksavage wrote: »

Listverse? List-f*#king-verse? You're citing polished-up clickbait to support your argument. That speaks volumes about your research into the topic.

Read the article. The information in it is all true.

Christy42

marcus001 wrote: »

Right but supremacism and nationalism are two different ideologies.

Well then tell the supremists they are using the wrong word.

InTheTrees

Remember to put these statues in some context of life in the southern US.

in the american south segregation only officially ended in 1964. So this is not an issue that is confined to the 19th century.

These statues were a constant reminder to african americans during those segregated times.

wes

Christy42 wrote: »

Well then tell the supremists they are using the wrong word.

Nationalism has been hijacked by extremists at this point. Its a useful tool for there cause. Again, shadows of what happened elsewhere in the world, just swapping in Nationalism for a more secular minded group.

The Legend Of Kira

For people who think or say " you re far right if you criticise Antifa " , here is an African American political commentator who is critical towards Antifa.

https://twitter.com/WayneDupreeShow/status/897821546575794178

https://twitter.com/WayneDupreeShow/status/897587503317884929

Would anyone dare call him " far right " too as well ?

marcus001

Remember the outrage when people thought Trump removed the bust of MLK from the Oval office? People were outraged because he is a hero to a lot of americans. He also beat his wife. What if a female president decided to remove it because it represents domestic violence in her mind? Would that be right?

Lee is a hero to many in the south. Even if some people don't like what he stood for that fact remains. Southerners have the right to defend their heritage. And no, Lee does not represent slavery. He represents military prowess, something the South has always been renowned for and something they are very proud of. Tearing down their famous generals is an insult.

wes

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

For people who think or say " you re far right if you criticise Antifa " , here is an African American political commentator who is critical towards Antifa.

https://twitter.com/WayneDupreeShow/status/897821546575794178

https://twitter.com/WayneDupreeShow/status/897587503317884929

Would anyone dare call him " far right " too as well ?

Nation of Islam would be far right and racist, and are African American. Being African American isn't really any of kind argument against someone not being far right and is basically a different version of "I have a black friend".

FYI, him referring to Nazi as conservatives, should offend any decent person. Also, no such as an "alt left". "Alt Right" (Nazi's, racists) are a self identified group. Complaining about the alt left is nonsense, as no such group exists.

Manic Moran

wes wrote: »

Tony EH wrote: »

There are statues and monuments all over Rome remembering people and events that make Lee look like a liberal saint.

Lee was a traitor to the US, on that basis alone, its absurd that there are statues of the man. I do not understand why the US puts up with that nonsense. These confederate people need to get over the fact they lost the civil war decades ago, and that it was fought for the right to own people.

The US which he swore an oath to arguably did not exist. Back in the 1850s, the oath of commissioning was to the individual states as a united group, and the States in the early 1860s were certainly not united. As a result of the civil war, in 1862 the federal military changed the oath so that it was to the Union of States, not the States of the Union.

In other words, Virginia fought for the right to keep slavery. (Why have we not removed Virginia?) Lee fought for Virginia. He would have fought for Virginia had the North been pro-slave and the South anti. It is on this basis that the military has retained the names of confederate officers in its institutions. The point about statues going up in the 1960s is well taken, but it is not the only view on the matter of commemorating those who fought for their States.

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

The US which he swore an oath to arguably did not exist. Back in the 1850s, the oath was to the individual states as a united group, and the States in the early 1860s were certainly not united. As a result of the civil war, the federal military changed the oath so that it was to the Union of States, not the States of the Union, the oath remains unchanged since then.

In other words, Virginia fought for the right to keep slavery. (Why have we not removed Virginia?) Lee fought for Virginia. He would have fought for Virginia had the North been pro-slave and the South anti. It is on this basis that the military has retained the names of confederate officers in its institutions. The point about statues going up in the 1960s is well taken, but it is not the only view on the matter of commemorating those who fought for their States.

Well, I am sure the losers of the war saw themselves as patriots of course, but the I find it bizarre that we have current day people who call themselves Americans celebrate this kind of thing. I don't understand why people put up with it.

VinLieger

marcus001 wrote: »

Lee is a hero to many in the south. Even if some people don't like what he stood for that fact remains. Southerners have the right to defend their heritage. And no, Lee does not represent slavery. He represents military prowess, something the South has always been renowned for and something they are very proud of. Tearing down their famous generals is an insult.

What about the fact that after the war Lee himself opposed building confederate monuments?
Not really respecting their supposed hero so much if they so fervently want to ignore his wishes?

Christy42

marcus001 wrote: »

Remember the outrage when people thought Trump removed the bust of MLK from the Oval office? People were outraged because he is a hero to a lot of americans. He also beat his wife. What if a female president decided to remove it because it represents domestic violence in her mind? Would that be right?

Lee is a hero to many in the south. Even if some people don't like what he stood for that fact remains. Southerners have the right to defend their heritage. And no, Lee does not represent slavery. He represents military prowess, something the South has always been renowned for and something they are very proud of. Tearing down their famous generals is an insult.

Was that why people marched along side the nazi flag?

The Legend Of Kira

wes wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

For people who think or say " you re far right if you criticise Antifa " , here is an African American political commentator who is critical towards Antifa.

https://twitter.com/WayneDupreeShow/status/897821546575794178

https://twitter.com/WayneDupreeShow/status/897587503317884929

Would anyone dare call him " far right " too as well ?

Nation of Islam would be far right and racist, and are African American. Being African American isn't really any of kind argument against someone not being far right and is basically a different version of "I have a black friend".

FYI, him referring to Nazi as conservatives, should offend any decent person. Also, no such as an "alt left". "Alt Right" (Nazi's, racists) are a self identified group. Complaining about the alt left is nonsense, as no such group exists.

"" FYI, him referring to Nazi as conservatives, ""

You misinterpret what he said,  he,s talking about Antifa wishing to silence anyone they disagree with, wishing to silence anyone they view as being right wing in any way shape or form, some people will very well get what,s talking about .

A Little Pony

Tony EH wrote: »

Christy42 wrote: »

Oh ffs. There is more to him but that is what he will mostly be remembered for.

Only by some, who can't be arsed to go any deeper.

And what he's actually mostly remembered for is his tactical and strategic expertise on the battlefield.

Your simplistic reduction is like saying George Washington - slave owner.

That's all...nothing else...

People should read the book Rebel Yell biography of Stonewall Jackson, another fantastic general, the Union Army was lucky he wasn't at Gettysburg. His Valley campaign, his flanking at Chancellorsville, outstanding military leaders. Sherman's idea of scorch earth tactics, Jackson advocated that well before him.

marcus001

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, one is an arsehole who spouts ****e for her own self aggrandisement. The other is a leader of a community who's views are at the centre of a debate about something like the Hebdo shootings.

While I find most of what Choudry has to say abhorrent to say the least, many still want to hear it.

Most people couldn't give a toss what the likes of Hopkins has to say about anything.

I highly doubt the people trying to no platform Hopkins were doing so because they "didn't care" what she had to say. People don't really care about 90% of the guests but more people tune in to listen to the likes of Katie Hopkins than your average middle aged celeb with an incoming autobiography

VinLieger

Christy42 wrote: »

Was that why people marched along side the nazi flag?

While chanting "Jews will not replace us!"

Ahh yes I see exactly how that shows respect to their hero.....

For Reals

wes wrote: »

One of the reasons imo we are seeing apologetics for Nazi's on here and elsewhere, is that some people can't quite believe that Westerners would in this day and age embrace extremism in the same way as people in parts of Africa (Lords Resistance Army) and the Middle East (ISIS).

There are 2 components here, the ideology (Nazism, racism etc) (spread via social media unchallenged), and economics (not always based on reality, in regards to economics, as the first one ,ideology can warp this one). The question is how do we stop poor people (or middle class people pissed off about equality), from embracing this ideology?

Al Qaeada and ISIS, were the first wave of extremism, and these Neo Nazi's /far right, are a second wave, using social media, to recruit (in some ways people self radicalize via internet propaganda) people to there cause. We even see less bad versions of this kind of thing in the likes of the Daily Mail, the Sun as well, and of course far right politicians, but we see it even from some main stream ones. Plenty of blame to go around.

The less well off or poor and disenfranchised are the puppets. It's the 'thinkers', of the privileged far right that stir these things up. All comes back to wealth and power.
Just on the 'antifa' thing. We've fascists and anti-fascists. I would like to believe most of us are anti-fascist. 'anti-fa' do not represent all anti-fascists. Also regarding the protesters; simply put, one side wants inequality in their favour, to maintain or return to a more severe white led status quo, the other wants equality.

WinnyThePoo

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

For people who think or say " you re far right if you criticise Antifa " , here is an African American political commentator who is critical towards Antifa.

https://twitter.com/WayneDupreeShow/status/897821546575794178

https://twitter.com/WayneDupreeShow/status/897587503317884929

Would anyone dare call him " far right " too as well ?

I think your obsessed with antifa. I think you should step away from twitter, take a break from the journal. Get out and get some air. Join a club.

Antifa are Piss poor. They have no moral authority and anyone loses that turn to violence...

Neo Nazi's, kkk, white supremacists are no better than ISIS. They have blown up buildings.

Your twitter account is a propaganda machine.

Get out. Live your life.

VinLieger

For Reals wrote: »

The less well off or poor and disenfranchised are the puppets. It's the 'thinkers', of the privileged far right that stir these things up. All comes back to wealth and power.

I'd be curious to know what the Kochs are thinking now that their monster has broken its leash

PopePalpatine

VinLieger wrote: »

What about the fact that after the war Lee himself opposed building confederate monuments?
Not really respecting their supposed hero so much if they so fervently want to ignore his wishes?

I guess Confederate apologists need their participation trophies.

marcus001

wes wrote: »

Well, I am sure the losers of the war saw themselves as patriots of course, but the I find it bizarre that we have current day people who call themselves Americans celebrate this kind of thing. I don't understand why people put up with it.

Because the Federal Government is not "America". Not that hard to understand.

marcus001

VinLieger wrote: »

What about the fact that after the war Lee himself opposed building confederate monuments?
Not really respecting their supposed hero so much if they so fervently want to ignore his wishes?

I don't think that really matters.

VinLieger

marcus001 wrote: »

Because the Federal Government is not "America". Not that hard to understand.

And waving swastikas around is their way of showing what exactly?

VinLieger

marcus001 wrote: »

I don't think that really matters.

That's convenient, he's their hero but his opinions don't matter......?

marcus001

Christy42 wrote: »

Was that why people marched along side the nazi flag?

No people march under a Nazi flag if they're Nazi's. Its not just the alt right that wants to retain the monuments. Normal people, particularly military families do too. If anything the alt right loves that they're trying to take them down because it gives them a cause to support that doesn't involve persecuting minorities.

A Little Pony

Lee's great great grandson has said moving the monuments to Museums would make perfect sense. He is right if it helps unify the country again.

marcus001

VinLieger wrote: »

That's convenient, he's their hero but his opinions don't matter......?

Its not a monument to his opinions its a monument to his military accomplishments.

VinLieger

marcus001 wrote: »

Its not a monument to his opinions its a monument to his military accomplishments.

Ahh grand so its actually okay then to consider Hitler and his generals heros because of their military accomplishments?

The Legend Of Kira

I don,t know how many people know of Avi Yemini an Australian political commentator,I thought he put it very well in this video when he talked about violence on many sides.


https://www.facebook.com/OzraeliAvi/videos/718104074980735/?hc_ref=ARSaHvqD8axxCEH2KzvTCkJ1wcXgGutN463_zdPcrvsn7oBM2ev1QLzc_bnFJ3tAtYk

wes

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

You misinterpret what he said,  he,s talking about Antifa wishing to silence anyone they disagree with, wishing to silence anyone they view as being right wing in any way shape or form, some people will very well get what,s talking about .

He used the term "alt left", so no misinterpretation. He chose to ape what Trump said. They do not exist:

'No such thing as the alt-left:' Donald Trump’s phrase for counter-protesters dismissed by extremism experts


Also, you misrepresent Antifa, they oppose fascism (an inherently good thing), and not as you claim anyone who is right wing. While, I disagree with there methods, your characterization of them is utter nonsense.