Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

The Legend Of Kira

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[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][ltr][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]" He has a platform. They have their publications, websites etc. Just because certain privately owned platforms don't want to be associated with them isn't censorship. [/font][/ltr][/font]
[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][ltr][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Why would anyone need an interview to figurs out if nazism is wring surely everyone has read some history or for the non book readers Shindlers list. "[/font][/ltr][/font]



[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][ltr][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]" Why would anyone need an interview to figurs out if nazism is wring surely everyone has read some history or for the non book readers Shindlers list. "[/font][/ltr][/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][ltr][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]You misinterpreted my post, I know what Nazism from the history books since school, when people aren,t no platformed & given interviews in the media its easier to know what he/she is all about & form an opinion about that individual .[/font][/ltr][/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][ltr][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Likewise I watched this other fellow involved with last weekends rally give an interview in the media ( see link ), I watched him heard him out & know what,s he about going by stuff he said such as the " jew " comment I can tell he,s an anti semite , now if these two individuals had of been no platformed a lot of people wouldn,t of been able to hear them out listen carefully to what they say & see what they re really all about .[/font][/ltr]

[ltr][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]https://twitter.com/LauraLoomer/status/897512204148277248[/font][/ltr][/font]

The Legend Of Kira

Those who posted details about people at the march, have trialed the wrong fellow on social media, a fellow who wasn,t even at the rally had his name shared around & was misidentified.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/us/charlottesville-doxxing.html

Rjd2

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Those who posted details about people at the march, have trialed the wrong fellow on social media, a fellow who wasn,t even at the rally had his name shared around & was misidentified.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/us/charlottesville-doxxing.html

Yeah that is so sad for the dude who has had his identity mistaken.

Its something that really does need something done about.

I recall a few months reading here, some poor lad has had been battered a few times because he looks like a convicted child abuser down South,the lynch mob planned it on facebook, this isn't much different sadly

I think its pretty worrying that the likes of Jennifer Lawrence and others are calling on their followers to find these people, always going to be a ****show even if Lawrence etc do have positive intentions.

For Forks Sake

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Those who posted details about people at the march, have trialed the wrong fellow on social media, a fellow who wasn,t even at the rally had his name shared around & was misidentified.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/us/charlottesville-doxxing.html

Well if we're engaging in whataboutery, how about the totally innocent man who was "identified" by the usual Alt-Right sites as the driver of the car used in the terrorist attack?? when in fact, the terrorist was, as most suspected, one of their own....

http://www.thedailybeast.com/alt-right-media-framed-wrong-person-in-car-attack-labeled-him-anti-trump-druggie

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2017/08/13/michigan-man-charlottesville-attack/563312001/

OnDraught

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Peter Tefft the fellow who has being named in the media & reported that his family disowned him and that, I watched him in this interview he gave last night, I will say straight out after watching him + hearing him out he,s very extreme in his views & I would disagree with him on his political views regarding identity politics the " pro white "  he said , now regarding no platforming people if he was no platformed I wouldn,t of being able to hear him out in an interview[/font][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] & see 1st hand what he,s really like + really all about, but because he wasn,t no platformed & left do that interview I have being able form my own opinion on his political views once I heard him out, if you no platform people its harder to form an opinion on someone cause you haven,t heard them out to see what they re really all about and all that .[/font]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8iGXW7USPw

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8iGXW7USPw

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[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8iGXW7USPw [/font]

The fact that you needed to see all that to form an opinion after he was involved in what he was involved with gives me little hope that your informed opinion will actually ever be worth anything to anyone.

The Legend Of Kira

OnDraught wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Peter Tefft the fellow who has being named in the media & reported that his family disowned him and that, I watched him in this interview he gave last night, I will say straight out after watching him + hearing him out he,s very extreme in his views & I would disagree with him on his political views regarding identity politics the " pro white "  he said , now regarding no platforming people if he was no platformed I wouldn,t of being able to hear him out in an interview[/font][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] & see 1st hand what he,s really like + really all about, but because he wasn,t no platformed & left do that interview I have being able form my own opinion on his political views once I heard him out, if you no platform people its harder to form an opinion on someone cause you haven,t heard them out to see what they re really all about and all that .[/font]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8iGXW7USPw

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8iGXW7USPw

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[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8iGXW7USPw

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The fact that you needed to see all that to form an opinion after he was involved in what he was involved with gives me little hope that your informed opinion will actually ever be worth anything to anyone. Its a simple process instead of no platforming people do the exact opposite let them speak let them be interviewed in the media, let them talk + let them slip their mask & let people see them without the mask once its slipped .

The Legend Of Kira

For Reals wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

A lot of people think + feel regarding condemnation of extreme groups that its all 1 sided, extreme groups be it extreme right/extreme left etc need to be all condemned equally .

They do.
It's difficult to see folks bypassing the swastika waving hate mongers to balance with complaints against the AntiFa, like one counters the other. It's dismissive and goes nowhere.

On one side one group of extremists waving the swastika vs the other side waving the red flag with the hammer & sickle .

This was a very good article in the Chicago tribune recently about Antifa, some of it.

" H[font=Georgia, "Droid Serif", serif]amburg, Germany, July. As world leaders gather for the G20 summit, far-left “anti-fascist” (antifa) rioters set fire to cars and property, terrorize residents and injure more than 200 police officers attempting to keep the peace. Did you miss it? CNN’s initial reports referred to the “protesters” as “eclectic” and “peaceful.”[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Droid Serif", serif]But you need not cross the shining seas to experience violence, destruction of property and a general dismantling of liberal values from the political left. You could simply visit America’s elite college campuses like Yale or Middlebury or Berkeley, where tomorrow’s leaders attempt to shut down conservative voices with protest or riots. At Middlebury, rioting students landed liberal professor Allison Stanger in a neck brace for the crime of defending a conservative academic’s right to speak. At Berkeley, mobs of students created a “war zone” ahead of a planned visit from conservative provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos, injuring Trump supporters and causing $100,000 in damages.[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Droid Serif", serif]Or head to Portland, Ore., one of the most liberal cities in the nation in the heart of the progressive Pacific Northwest, which this month Politico labeled “America’s Most Politically Violent City.” The progressive paradise —where Republicans are virtually an extinct species — has witnessed millions in damages attributed to the same types of anti-fascists-in-name-only that kept Hamburg residents paralyzed in fear this month. A “counter-protest” to a planned pro-Trump rally landed 14 antifa in jail for attacking the police with explosives and bricks. "[/font]

[font=Georgia, "Droid Serif", serif]http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-liberals-antifa-violence-20170718-story.html[/font]

[font=Georgia, "Droid Serif", serif]Now reverse the roles Imagine if it was an extreme right wing group engaging in all the above, there be stronger condemnation .[/font]

Noel82

Where was the moral outrage when stuff like this has been going on for over a year? You hear nothing about it in the media and the blame is always put on the right. "Violence at right wing rally" is the usual headline. They've been purposely inciting violence, smashing buildings and lighting cars on fire, spraying bottles of piss and attacking people, it was only a matter of time until someone got killed. Some will try to justify saying they only do it to "Nazi's" but the reality is they do it to anyone who doesn't conform to their agenda. I thought someone would be killed a lot sooner. The scumbag in the car has ruined any momentum Conservatives were gaining and has issued a massive blow to Trumps presidency.

Everyone who doesn't conform to their ( antifa ) views is a Nazi and the term alt right is applied as a smear tactic. The White Supremacists are scum, and so are the communist Antifa. When Trump says there's two sides to it, he's right. Those who turn a blind eye to what's been going on the last year or so have no moral ground to attack conservatives with or Trump himself, just like Bernie Sanders isn't responsible for the guy shooting up the Republican senators. Until people can have an honest discussion about what's been going on, and I'm mostly talking about the media here, those honest people on the right spectrum will continue to feel vilified.

White supremacist groups should be labeled as terrorist organizations, as should the Antifa, but in free living America that will never happen and the violence is likely only going to escalate. It's a disgrace how often Police are told to stand down in these confrontations and let both sides fight, and I thought it was a disgrace how the media were roaring at Trump today like starving dogs when they acted the polar opposite towards Obama after the Dallas Police massacre.

oscarBravo

marcus001 wrote: »

Why is it that when an atrocity is committed by a right winger their entire ideology and its followers are dragged over the coals by the left, but when a member of a certain religion commits the same the left defends the religion.

Because the atrocity was committed not just by a right-winger, but by a supporter of actual national socialism. We're not talking about someone who's vaguely supportive of a conservative political philosophy, we're talking about a fascist.

And that's not name-calling. This was a white supremacist, fascist, Nazi rally. And that's an ideology that richly deserves to be hauled over the coals.

When evil people do evil things in the name of Islam, the overwhelming majority of Muslims repudiate those acts. When evil people do evil things in the name of national socialism, it sort of goes with the territory.

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

On one side one group of extremists waving the swastika vs the other side waving the red flag with the hammer & sickle .

Repeat slowly after me:

You don't have to be a communist to oppose fascism.

You. don't. have. to be. a communist. to oppose. fascism.

I get it: fascism by itself is indefensible. Therefore it's necessary to pull the usual "everyone is as bad as everyone else" false equivalence in a desperate attempt to try to distract people from the fascists. The fuhrer president led the way by being unable to condemn fascism in isolation, but that's no surprise: he conned gullible people into buying the "as bad as each other" schtick when comparing a run-of-the-mill, centre-right, generally competent if uninspiring candidate to a psychotic narcissist who couldn't make money in the casino business and whose grotesque unsuitability to run a country was on display for the last fifty years, never mind the last three.

Samaris

It's kinda amazing that we're at the stage of whataboutery when it comes to actual Nazis.

Yes, Antifa are bad too. That was not an Antifa march. If it had been, and if an Antifa person had deliberately mowed down someone who was counter-protesting them, there would have been condemnation.

When there is an Islamic fundamentalist attack, the perpetrator is universally condemned. The DEFENSE comes in when people start saying that all Muslims are murderers, Islam = killing and all the rest of it. Condemning all Muslims based on the actions of a relatively few people.

When a Nazi mows down someone in a car, you have, amongst other things, idiots trying desperately to spin that he was under attack and did it in self-defense and a lot of wibbling about how the left wing were responsible for ...whatever the hell it is, creating Nazis, apparently! I don't think I have seen anyone say that "What can you expect, cultural homogeneity, Whites are naturally inclined to murder, their holy book says so and they must all be banned. Why aren't more Whites condemning this slaughter?"

(And if it comes to that, it's amazing how quickly threads about terrorism in general die out when the culprit was a white nationalist rather than an Islamic one. Amazing that. Particularly when the majority of terrorist attacks in the United States, as remarkable as it seems given the newspaper coverage, have consistently been right-wing over the past thirty years.)

Or even anything similar. Mostly it has been "wtf" at some of the more desperate deflections and blaming the counter-protesters for exercising -their- right to protest too. I actually saw someone claim (as strident as they were incorrect) that it was the fault of the counter-protesters that a woman was killed. It was not even remotely, ofc, the fault of the guy that drove a car into her. Actually, it might have been in this thread, but I've seen so much nonsense about it that I can't remember which thread it was.

So how about actually addressing what happened?

marcus001

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Good point. However, I think (or like to think) that most people believe in the principles of openess, tolerance and inclusivity. So religions that have a very small minority of adherents who are violent extremists will be defended by most people under the aegis of those principles. For the very same reasons and principles, those same people will not support supremacists and fascists as they do not subscribe to openess, tolerance and inclusivity.

No I don't think you could say most people believe in openness tolerance and inclusivity. These are not value systems these are personality traits and only a segment of the population has them.

Noel82

Mostly it has been "wtf" at some of the more desperate deflections and blaming the counter-protesters for exercising -their- right to protest too.

Misconstrued in your moral talking point is talking about Antifa like they have a right to protest. They don't protest, they are anarchists and purposely go to events to start riots and cause chaos. Remember the G20 "protests" a few months back? They are part of the problem.

marcus001

Samaris wrote: »

...And then there's the other argument, which is that certain people, particularly white men, have no say in their own ideals or their actions and anything they think or say is purely down to the progressives, who are apparently the only ones capable of thinking or any action. It's not their fault, they were forced into it all by nebulous left-wingers because they have absolutely no agency, choice or minds of their own.

I don't buy it, tbh.

People forming opinions the opposite of the ones that are vigorously shoved down their throats is not the same as having no mind of your own.

Samaris

Noel82 wrote: »

Misconstrued in your moral talking point is talking about Antifa like they have a right to protest. They don't protest, they are anarchists and purposely go to events to start riots and cause chaos. Remember the G20 "protests" a few months back? They are part of the problem.

Yes, Antifa, as much as I generally agree with being anti-fascist, are a gang of thugs. However, Heather Heyers was not a member of Antifa. The march was not an Antifa march. It was a peaceful counter-protest where a murderous white supremacist rammed a car through the middle of it.

Samaris

marcus001 wrote: »

People forming opinions the opposite of the ones that are vigorously shoved down their throats is not the same as having no mind of your own.

And yes, but saying that the left are responsible for fascists marching about the place is implying that the people involved have no brain or independent thought whatsoever and are merely reactionaries. What can you expect? I expect the people actually marching to own up to their own ideologies and own awful ideas and stop trying to whine it away onto those that vehemently disagree with them.

I still don't buy it. This is a far right-wing ideology and no amount of attempting to deflect it on their ideological enemies will change that. Have some respect for people having their own brains and freedom to act on their own initiatives. Blaming the people ideologically opposite them is frankly ridiculous.

marcus001

Samaris wrote: »

Yes, Antifa, as much as I generally agree with being anti-fascist, are a gang of thugs. However, Heather Heyers was not a member of Antifa. The march was not an Antifa march. It was a peaceful counter-protest where a murderous white supremacist rammed a car through the middle of it.

I think we should all be aware that not everyone there was spoiling for a fight and that plenty of people were peacefully demonstrating on both sides. However the shocking thing is how Antifa's presence (which was significant in how things went down) has barely been mentioned in the MSM. Its almost like they're the corporate medias secret police. They go and attack all the groups the media despises most (i.e. anyone who opposes immigration or Brexit) and the media gives them soft coverage. I wonder does your average Antifa thug understand the extent to which he serves the elites.

When they riot during the G20 they don't call them protestors. They call them anarchists. When they riot at a Trump rally or in Charlotteville they're called antiracism demonstrators.

Samaris

The reason that they didn't get much of a mention was because there was a goddam murder and an attempted mass murder. The reason they didn't get much mention was a terrorist attack. The helicopter didn't get much mention either.

And yes, there was plenty of peaceful protesting. There were also Antifa extremists. There were also a lot of white supremacists. Have you considered what that term, proudly embraced by the people marching with tiki torches means? It means the domination of other races or failing that, their extermination. Do you think that is a peaceful anything?

And please do not give me guff about peaceful historians marching to protect history (yes, I have seen that argument too!). They weren't waving tiki torches and banners with swastikas. Do you think there was anything actually peaceful about what they were demanding, with the message that symbol sends?

marcus001

Samaris wrote: »

And yes, but saying that the left are responsible for fascists marching about the place is implying that the people involved have no brain or independent thought whatsoever and are merely reactionaries. What can you expect? I expect the people actually marching to own up to their own ideologies and own awful ideas and stop trying to whine it away onto those that vehemently disagree with them.

I still don't buy it. This is a far right-wing ideology and no amount of attempting to deflect it on their ideological enemies will change that. Have some respect for people having their own brains and freedom to act on their own initiatives. Blaming the people ideologically opposite them is frankly ridiculous.

No one is saying they don't have agency. The point is that half of the young lads there wouldn't have even found the altright had they not being looking for it.

They saw the progressive consensus. They decided they didn't like it. Mainstream conservativism and libertarianism (an outsized proportion of altrighters are former libertarians) had no answers to the problems they saw with college campuses, feminism, oppressive work cultures like Google, people being sacked for having opinions that go against progrsssivism etc. The alt right apparently had answers to those problems. Its really as simple as that.

Although I will say that IMO a good portion of people who turned out to that march are probably coming from multiple generations of racism and didn't lick it off a stone. You dont just show up at a rally like that unless you hang out in those circles at home.

Sand

Honestly, the US needs to clamp down on the SJW&Antifa/alt-right ritualistic violence that seems to erupt all too often. You could view them both as domestic terrorist groups, or you could view them both as political hooligans, looking forward to the next away day. I would tend to the latter view.

The US needs to start applying the same approach that works for combating football hooliganism in Europe: ban *anything* that could conceivably be used as a weapon, ban identified individuals from attending formally or informally, segregate the opposing groups, ban counter-protests, identify and register members of antifa and the alt-right and place travel bans on violent individuals of each group.

There has been a tolerance of a ritualistic violent confrontation between these groups with dozens if not hundreds injured and maimed. Deaths are inevitable. The murder of those police officers last year should have been the line in the sand. It wasn't, it was permitted to continue. Now another person is dead. At some point the adults need to intervene and halt this juvenile crap between SJW and the Alt-Right.

marcus001

Samaris wrote: »

The reason that they didn't get much of a mention was because there was a goddam murder and an attempted mass murder. The reason they didn't get much mention was a terrorist attack. The helicopter didn't get much mention either.

And yes, there was plenty of peaceful protesting. There were also Antifa extremists. There were also a lot of white supremacists. Have you considered what that term, proudly embraced by the people marching with tiki torches means? It means the domination of other races or failing that, their extermination. Do you think that is a peaceful anything?

And please do not give me guff about peaceful historians marching to protect history (yes, I have seen that argument too!). They weren't waving tiki torches and banners with swastikas. Do you think there was anything actually peaceful about what they were demanding, with the message that symbol sends?

Where did they call themselves white supremacists? That's interesting. Most of the interviews I watched they called themselves white nationalists or separatists not supremacists. Although I wouldn't be surprised if they were so dense they adopted the term supremacist without knowing what it means.

marcus001

Sand wrote: »

Honestly, the US needs to clamp down on the SJW&Antifa/alt-right ritualistic violence that seems to erupt all too often. You could view them both as domestic terrorist groups, or you could view them both as political hooligans, looking forward to the next away day. I would tend to the latter view.

The US needs to start applying the same approach that works for combating football hooliganism in Europe: ban *anything* that could conceivably be used as a weapon, ban identified individuals from attending formally or informally, segregate the opposing groups, ban counter-protests, identify and register members of antifa and the alt-right and place travel bans on violent individuals of each group.

There has been a tolerance of a ritualistic violent confrontation between these groups with dozens if not hundreds injured and maimed. Deaths are inevitable. The murder of those police officers last year should have been the line in the sand. It wasn't, it was permitted to continue. Now another person is dead. At some point the adults need to intervene and halt this juvenile crap between SJW and the Alt-Right.

I agree but no need to turn into even more of a police state. Just keep them separated. The police in Charlottesville allegedly forced the right wingers to walk right through the left wingers basically asking for a riot to break out.

Sand

marcus001 wrote: »

I agree but no need to turn into even more of a police state. Just keep them separated. The police in Charlottesville allegedly forced the right wingers to walk right through the left wingers basically asking for a riot to break out.

Europe deals with hooliganism without a police state. It identifies the troublemakers, and prevents them travelling, prevents them getting armed and prevents them getting close to the other side. We are not talking about barcoding anyone who steps out of line.

marcus001

Sand wrote: »

Europe deals with hooliganism without a police state. It identifies the troublemakers, and prevents them travelling, prevents them getting armed and prevents them getting close to the other side. We are not talking about barcoding anyone who steps out of line.

The UK is a police state, not sure if you knew that or not.

http://listverse.com/2015/11/10/10-signs-britain-is-becoming-a-creepy-police-state/

Not that familiar with the rest of Europe but fairly sure France is going that way too.

InTheTrees

marcus001 wrote: »

Where did they call themselves white supremacists? That's interesting. Most of the interviews I watched they called themselves white nationalists or separatists not supremacists. Although I wouldn't be surprised if they were so dense they adopted the term supremacist without knowing what it means.

I dont think most people care what label these people choose for themselves. Their ideology is what defines them.

Manic Moran

Sand wrote: »

Europe deals with hooliganism without a police state. It identifies the troublemakers, and prevents them travelling, prevents them getting armed and prevents them getting close to the other side. We are not talking about barcoding anyone who steps out of line.

Attending a football game is not one of the most cherished rights enshrined in the Constitution of Europe. Not really the best of analogies.

Chips Lovell

Seriously? A chap gets fired from Google for being a bit of a sexist and that's making people become neo-Nazis? I've heard it all now.

Samaris

The people holding the torches weren't the moderate-to-pissed-off. The march couldn't get the moderates (because the moderates took one look at who was going and decided "nope, we are not tainting our beliefs with those racist nutters"), which is why it Nazified so rapidly. These were actually the racists. You don't wake up one morning and accidentally join the Ku Klux Klan, even if you feel that universities are full of communism. And it is reeeally quite difficult to argue that you're totally innocent while marching with the KKK. Seriously, the KKK. That's where America is right now. If you march with the KKK and Seig Heil like a Nazi and chant "Jew! Jew!" like a Nazi (yeah, that was going on too), you are probably at the least a raving doucheweasel.

On that note, all this isn't new. Does no-one remember the existance of the Red Scare? McCarthyism? How someone's life and career could be destroyed by the accusation of being Socialist, which was only one step aside from pinko Commie-ism. You think people get called out for being white supremacists? Well, maybe it's a bit more understandable that someone should get called out for being a white supremacist than someone should get called out for being socialist - or even having Communist beliefs. Because socialism is pretty benign, even if you don't believe in it. Communism's ideas don't -work- at a national scale, but in general, they are based on "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need", which balanced against "The naturally dominant white race has a destiny under God to dominate the lesser races"...isn't actually all that horrific. There were certainly awful people leading the Communist beliefs as well as decent ones, but it's really quite difficult to be a decent supremacist.

Secondly, the supremacists and Antifa share a method - violence. That makes them both condemnable. However, there is actually a slight difference - believing that lesser races should be dominated or wiped out is actually objectively worse than believing that those who believe lesser races should be wiped out have no place expressing that crap in civilised society. I deplore their methods, but I feel there is a certain false equivalence going on.

The counter-protests very easily can be formed of essentially peaceful people because their beliefs (not being a dick to minorities for one) are not inherently violent. The belief that due to the colour of your skin, you have an inherent right is to dominate others is not a peaceful belief.

Tony EH

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Bingo. I identified as liberal / left wing for my entire young life because "conservative" was synonymous with "cultural authoritarian". Now that "liberal" is synonymous with "cultural authoritarian", I pretty much support nobody. There seem to be very few left wing cultural libertarians like myself - everyone these days seems to be either left wing and pro-censorship, or right wing and anti-censorship. So much so that the very existence of people like myself is denied by a lot of people - they will bracket me in and accuse me either of being a closeted alt-right supporter, or a closeted cultural authoritarian concern troll.

It's very, very sad.

This is largely and American thing. It's pretty unrecognisable in most of Europe.

And, I'll add this. America has never had a real left. So called "Liberals" are not the same as the traditional European left. They're not even on the same page in many respects.

I think it's a great mistake to look at the shouty internet types who identify as "Liberal" in the States and braket them in the same group as traditional style lefties in Europe, a lot of whom would pretty removed from their issues, beliefs and methods.

The flip side to that is looking at these alt-right clowns and putting them in the same pile as tradtional Conservatives. Those twains aren't going to be meeting any time soon either.

jooksavage

marcus001 wrote: »

The UK is a police state, not sure if you knew that or not.

http://listverse.com/2015/11/10/10-signs-britain-is-becoming-a-creepy-police-state/

Not that familiar with the rest of Europe but fairly sure France is going that way too.

Listverse? List-f*#king-verse? You're citing polished-up clickbait to support your argument. That speaks volumes about your research into the topic.

Tony EH

Danzy wrote: »

This is the problem with identity politics, it becomes a pissing contest.

You could start ripping down every statue of Washington for slavery, Engels for his frankly genocidal views on Slavs, Mao, Stalin, Lenin for the 100 million + that died at their hands.

Identity politics thrives on division, us, them, me, me, me, it is the opposite of class politics, it is the opposite of We.

Every sub group can be further broken down and the rest then become the enemy, ever further balkanization where the person you were campaigning with yesterday finds out that they are part of an oppressive identity group as far as you are concerned today, if there is not new division created then it just fades away.

There are statues and monuments all over the world remembering people and events that are, these days, considered awful to a modern society. But, what would tearing them down achieve? It doesn't eliminate those events. It won't stop people having racist attitudes.

In fact, I would argue that these historical items should remain in their place as to spark interest and debate about national histories and let's be honest here, if one digs deep enough, theirs enough dirt on the hands of most countries in their attitudes and deeds from past events/people.

Pissing and moaning about flags, symbols and people from 100, 200, 2000 years ago is not going to change that. However, I believe that it does dull the historical record to a degree and as someone who's interests lie in history, I find that rather sad.