Season 7 Episode 5 "Eastwatch" - "Book readers"

Dave_The_Sheep

Daith wrote: »

I get where you're coming from which is why I wanted Dany to tell Randyll that she was born in Westeros and Randyll served her father so what's the issue?

Indeed, I thought it was a really odd thing to not bring up myself - it was the obvious thing to fire back at him.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

Nope- no oath, no treason.

Well he thought there was. He actually said so to Jaime when he was being persuaded to join with Cersei: "I swore an oath to House Tyrrell" were his very words.

DeadHand wrote: »

The Tyrells have been wiped out, Tyrion said so when addressing Dickon. They appear to have been, in the TV show, a small unit which is why Oleanna caved when Tywin threatened to sign Loras into the Kingsguard.

Cersei, like Oleanna, is an illegitimate ruler. Tarly has no love for her but rowed in behind her in the face of foreign invasion for lack of alternatives. Lesser of two evils type deal. Don't have the foggiest why you'd mention Jon Snow.

Jon Snow because he was not a legitimate heir to Winterfell, yet was accepted as such, despite there being other legitimate heirs. And more turning up by the episode.

Liam O

Heffoman wrote: »

I think the Gilly thing wasnt just to hint that Jon is just a Targaryn bit if the marriage was legal he is the rightful ruler and not his aunt.

On the same lines is Tyrion the third head of the Dragon then. Was that the reason his father hated him? Would make sense.

His father hated him because he was a dwarf, killed his wife and was the most similar to him of his 3 children.

Jaime and Cersei would be more likely to be Targs for obvious reasons. Even down to Genna Lannister saying at Riverrun that Tyrion is most like Tywin and Jaime isn't.

CMOTDibbler

Liam O wrote: »

His father hated him because he was a dwarf, killed his wife and was the most similar to him of his 3 children.

Jaime and Cersei would be more likely to be Targs for obvious reasons. Even down to Genna Lannister saying at Riverrun that Tyrion is most like Tywin and Jaime isn't.

Yeah. Jaime joining the kingsguard absolutely boiled Tywin's p1ss.

Heffoman

Liam O wrote: »

His father hated him because he was a dwarf, killed his wife and was the most similar to him of his 3 children.

Jaime and Cersei would be more likely to be Targs for obvious reasons. Even down to Genna Lannister saying at Riverrun that Tyrion is most like Tywin and Jaime isn't.

Tyrion has been the only other one to get close to the dragons apart from Jon. Also hes always had a fascination with Dragons as seen in the books.

You could reason that Tywin hated him because the mad King got his wife pregnant and she died in childbirth but his pride wouldn't let him reveal the secret.

Danjamin1

In keeping with the theme of loyalty & betrayal the Northern houses are proving to be a fickle bunch aren't they? Seems like only a few episodes ago they were shouting the King in the North for Jon, now they're just shy of calling for the Queen in the North. Some of them didn't waste any time denouncing Robb Stark either when he refused to execute Lannister POW's. Loyalty & honour doesn't seem to mean much in the North unless you're a Stark.

.......

This post has been deleted.

CMOTDibbler

Danjamin1 wrote: »

In keeping with the theme of loyalty & betrayal the Northern houses are proving to be a fickle bunch aren't they? Seems like only a few episodes ago they were shouting the King in the North for Jon, now they're just shy of calling for the Queen in the North. Some of them didn't waste any time denouncing Robb Stark either when he refused to execute Lannister POW's. Loyalty & honour doesn't seem to mean much in the North unless you're a Stark.

Littlefinger is feeding that line though. Probably saying things like: "The mad dragon queen has locked Jon up and we'll never see him again...". "He's not even a trueborn Stark...". Or just "Sansa's doing a great job, isn't she?".



I really believe he'll get a shock. Sansa is a lot more ruthless and unforgiving than she used to be. Ask Ramsay Bolton.

Danjamin1

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Littlefinger is feeding that line though. Probably saying things like: "The mad dragon queen has locked Jon up and we'll never see him again...". "He's not even a trueborn Stark...". Or just "Sansa's doing a great job, isn't she?".



I really believe he'll get a shock. Sansa is a lot more ruthless and unforgiving than she used to be. Ask Ramsay Bolton.

I have no doubt about that, but the Northern lords don't seem to be offering any restraint. Even Lyanna Mormont wasn't a fan of Jon going south to meet Dany. They've essentially made him king & then immediately disagreed with his first plan and are now on the verge of pledging allegiance to someone else! That's not fealty. It's treason if it's anything.

CMOTDibbler

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I have no doubt about that, but the Northern lords don't seem to be offering any restraint. Even Lyanna Mormont wasn't a fan of Jon going south to meet Dany. They've essentially made him king & then immediately disagreed with his first plan and are now on the verge of pledging allegiance to someone else! That's not fealty. It's treason if it's anything.

To be fair to them, Jon always encouraged discussion and even dissent. He then made his decisions. But he was never one for just saying "it will be so" and ignoring alternative views.

At the moment, they're making suggestions to Sansa and she's making her decisions as Jon would. They're not trying to force her into anything and are acquiescing to her wishes.

Littlefinger is stirring sh1t and when she finds out, that will be the end of him. She's not the stupid, vain girl she was in season one.

DeadHand

Daith wrote: »

Okay, Jon had power thrust upon him but he's still Lord of Winterfell over two more legitimate people.

Everybody in the Reach knew Olenna Tyrell was the power there.

It is never stated that Jon is Lord of Winterfell- he is King in the North, a separate thing entirely. The way I read it, either Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell or no one cares very much anymore.

Oh yes, Oleanna was the de facto power in the Reach. But she was not Lord of the Reach, Tarly was not her sworn vassal. Therefore, he did not commit treason.

Without Mace or Loras she was essentially an old woman in a castle. Now clearly she had some residual support but, given the ease of her final defeat, I'd argue the bulk of the Southern Lords joined Tarly or stayed out of it altogether.

Ann22

Heffoman wrote:

You could reason that Tywin hated him because the mad King got his wife pregnant and she died in childbirth but his pride wouldn't let him reveal the secret.

I think he would've killed the child if that was the case.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

It is never stated that Jon is Lord of Winterfell- he is King in the North, a separate thing entirely. The way I read it, either Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell or no one cares very much anymore.

Oh yes, Oleanna was the de facto power in the Reachburt. But she was not Lord of the Reach, Tarly was not her sworn vassal. Therefore, he did not commit treason.

Without Mace or Loras she was essentially an old woman in a castle. Now clearly she had some residual support but, given the ease of her final defeat, I'd argue the bulk of the Southern Lords joined Tarly or stayed out of it altogether.

You're still missing the point that Tarly himself said he'd sworn an oath to the Tyrrells. And that was to Jaime when Olenna was the de facto head of that house.

Couldn't be any clearer.

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You're still missing the point that Tarly himself said he'd sworn an oath to the Tyrrells. And that was to Jaime when Olenna was the de facto head of that house.

Couldn't be any clearer.

He swore an oath to Mace, not Oleanna.

Paddy Cow

Ann22 wrote: »

I think he would've killed the child if that was the case.

He told Tyrion that when he was born, he wanted to leave him in the sea but he couldn't because Tyrion is a Lannister.

If there is any chance Tyrion is a Targ, it will be revealed in one of Bran's visions. There is no way Tywin would have kept Tyrion is he didn't believe he was a Lannister.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

He swore an oath to Mace, not Oleanna.

The words he used were exactly this: "I swore an oath to House Tyrrell".

Have you got the small print there that has all the exclusions?

Grudaire

Ann22 wrote: »

I think he would've killed the child if that was the case.

Also if the king took bedding rights that would presumably mean the first born children would be Targs... ie the incestuous twins

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Paddy Cow wrote: »

He told Tyrion that when he was born, he wanted to leave him in the sea but he couldn't because Tyrion is a Lannister.

If there is any chance Tyrion is a Targ, it will be revealed in one of Bran's visions. There is no way Tywin would have kept Tyrion is he didn't believe he was a Lannister.

Later on in that exchange Tywin says something to the effect of "because I cannot prove you're not mine". There's a definite possibility he had suspicions I'd say.

Riddle101

Colin Fast Pesticide wrote: »

Later on in that exchange Tywin says something to the effect of "because I cannot prove you're not mine". There's a definite possibility he had suspicions I'd say.

I think Tywin was just being malicious in that scene. I don't think he meant it literally, but more that he wished he wasn't his son. In any case, I do think he's Tywin's son because numerous people have pointed out how alike they are.

Genna Lannister said this in the book. "Jaime, sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year"

EagererBeaver

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The words he used were exactly this: "I swore an oath to House Tyrrell".

Have you got the small print there that has all the exclusions?

Have you got the small print?

She's a member of House Tyrrell by marriage only. She has no claim to leadership of the house or to Highgarden

CMOTDibbler

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Have you got the small print?

She's a member of House Tyrrell by marriage only. She has no claim to leadership of the house or to Highgarden

Oh no, there are two of them. :pac:

Context, context. He wasn't talking about Mace the roasted or Loras the burnt. He even mentioned Olenna by name. In the very next sentence. Do you think he was a bit confused perhaps?

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The words he used were exactly this: "I swore an oath to House Tyrrell".

Have you got the small print there that has all the exclusions?

As I've explained, Oleanna isn't House Tyrell.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

As I've explained, Oleanna isn't House Tyrell.

This is getting funny at this stage. I'm starting to think you're taking the p1ss.

It really doesn't matter what you've explained. Tarly himself said he'd sworn an oath to House Tyrrell at the same time that Olenna was leading that house and he then said that he'd known her since he was a child. Just in case there might be any ambiguity as to what that oath represented.

Whether you can come up with enough mental and moral gymnastics to make it seem otherwise, Tarly himself believed he was an oathbreaker, else why bother mentioning the oath?

DeadHand

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Have you got the small print?

She's a member of House Tyrrell by marriage only. She has no claim to leadership of the house or to Highgarden

Exactly, she's as much a Tyrell as Cersei is a Baratheon.

Her claim to Highgarden was as problematic as Cersei's claim to the Iron Throne. They came to their respective inheritances under similar circumstances.

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

This is getting funny at this stage. I'm starting to think you're taking the p1ss.

It really doesn't matter what you've explained. Tarly himself said he'd sworn an oath to House Tyrrell at the same time that Olenna was leading that house and he then said that he'd known her since he was a child. Just in case there might be any ambiguity as to what that oath represented.

Whether you can come up with enough mental and moral gymnastics to make it seem otherwise, Tarly himself believed he was an oathbreaker, else why bother mentioning the oath?

That doesn't prove Tarly was an oath breaker, that only proves Tarly took an oath to House Tyrell in the past. No one disputes this.

He was no longer bound by the oath as a legitimate House Tyrell had ceased to exist by the time of his conversation with Jaime.

If Oleanna was his friend it could be called a personal betrayal. But it is not a political betrayal, oathbreaking or treason. It's not Frey or Bolton level treachery. It was a difficult choice and he chose what he considered the lesser of two evils.

To expand a little, the very fact that Tarly (a man of immense honour) and, presumably, other Reach lords were up for grabs would suggest the region was in some political upheaval. A leadership vaccum seems to have come about with the death of the Tyrells with Southern Lords considering themselves released from their vows to House Tyrell.

What happened in the war and the performance of Oleanna's remaining forces would strongly hint that a great many Southern nobles joined Tarly or, at least, stayed neutral released as they were from their vows to the now extinct House Tyrell.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

That doesn't prove Tarly was an oath breaker, that only proves Tarly took an oath to House Tyrell in the past. No one disputes this.

Ah stop!

He was asked to join Cersei and his immediate reply was that he was sworn to House Tyrrell.

Do you think he was giving a history of all the oaths he'd ever made?

"And I swore an oath to the seven gods and another one to Luthor Tyrrell and then I had to swear a new one to Mace when Luthor diied and I swore an oath to Loras Tyrrell in advance, just in case something happened to Mace and I always keep a spare one handy because you never know what could happen, and everyone knows they run out after a while and have to be recharged".

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Ah stop!

He was asked to join Cersei and his immediate reply was that he was sworn to House Tyrrell.

Do you think he was giving a history of all the oaths he'd ever made?

"And I swore an oath to the seven gods and another one to Luthor Tyrrell and then I had to swear a new one to Mace when Luthor diied and I swore an oath to Loras Tyrrell in advance, just in case something happened to Mace and I always keep a spare one handy because you never know what could happen, and everyone knows they run out after a while and have to be recharged".

I never argued he was not sworn to House Tyrell, my argument is that oath was no longer binding as that House was extinct.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

I never argued he was not sworn to House Tyrell, my argument is that oath was no longer binding as that House was extinct.

At the point that he reminded Jaime he had sworn an oath to it?

Getting your timelines tangled methinks.

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

At the point that he reminded Jaime he had sworn an oath to it?

Getting your timelines tangled methinks.

Yes, Mace and Loras were both dead at that point so the house was politically extinct.

His exact words were that he "swore an oath to House T". In the past. The point being that he may support Oleanna for old time's sake. He doesn't claim to be sworn to Oleanna because he isn't.

His reservations were based on Cersei's madness and residual personal loyalty to Oleanna, not on his oath which was no longer binding upon the death of his overlord and his overlord's heir.

Savage Tyrant

Good job at sucking all the fun out of the thread lads. Into the Black Cells with yas...