Season 7 Episode 5 "Eastwatch" - "Book readers"

Pete Moss

Dave0301 wrote:

Honest question, what would you prefer they do instead? Show them plodding along?

Dave0301 wrote:

This isn't a series of 24.

I don't mind these episodes being sped up, I've actually really enjoyed how they're packed and direct.

That said, I was a little disappointed that Tyrion and Bronn's meeting was cut out, or not considered at all. Both characters always interacted well and it would've been a good reunion on screen. So, while I don't mind the ultra quick traveling between locations to move the storyline along, I do feel that some potentially decent scenes are being sacrificed.

Overall, it's a minor gripe. I can see that the writers only have X amount of minutes to work with now, so some less essential scenes won't feature.

DeadHand

A plot point I don't get is Dany's sudden subscription to the "unite humanity" plan.

She was adamant at first that she would destroy the Lannisters and then deal with the trouble in the North. Now, at a critical point in the conflict where she has it all but won, she suddenly takes her foot off the pedal and starts talking armistice. You can be sure Cersei wouldn't take her eye off the ball if their situations were reversed- why does Dany (who hasn't seen solid proof of the dead) lose interest in fighting the war at hand- especially now that it is almost won? Were Jon's cave paintings that good?

I don't see what the Lannisters can contribute to the war against the dead anyway given that their army seems to have been all but wiped out (Cersei was talking mercenary reliance), the Tarlys are dead and the war will be on land so Euron is redundant (as well as being deeply untrustworthy and likely to leave the service of the Lannisters anyway given Cersei's pregnancy). All they have at this stage are the walls of KL, the garrison, Euron (for now) and a wad of gold- none of which are game changers against the Night King.

I see why Cersei is hot for the plan: even though I doubt she believes in or cares very much about the army of the dead a truce gives her side a badly needed respite. Team Jon has been all about it from day one. I just don't get Dany's sudden conversion given the state of play.

CMOTDibbler

turnikett1 wrote: »

I'm currently rewatching the whole thing and am now on Season 2 and they just feel like way different shows. GoT today feels like an epic action adventure or something, old GoT felt like an adult and fantasy themed true drama-thriller. I know I know, the pace doesn't allow it, time constraints and stuff, but it dawned on me today if they're compelled to squeeze everything in at the cost of quality, why didn't they just do an extra season? It's not like the fans wouldn't love it and HBO wouldn't approve.

I think you could end up with the wrong pace if you did that. Most of what you're watching in Season 2 and onwards is introducing and developing the characters and various plot lines. There are so many of them, it's hard to keep track and the TV show deals with fewer characters than the books do.

There have been instances this season where some character development was indulged in, like Grey Worm and Missandei and last season where Tyrion indulges in a little 'tell a joke' session. There were lots of criticisms of those scenes for being off the pace. We all know we're entering the end game, any attempt to slow it down would seem contrived imo.

If you think of it like a feature film, then we're in the third act and that requires a steady ramp up of the pace. I wouldn't say that it's being done perfectly, but it's pretty good nonetheless.

Digital Solitude

DeadHand wrote: »

A plot point I don't get is Dany's sudden subscription to the "unite humanity" plan.

She was adamant at first that she would destroy the Lannisters and then deal with the trouble in the North. Now, at a critical point in the conflict where she has it all but won, she suddenly takes her foot off the pedal and starts talking armistice. You can be sure Cersei wouldn't take her eye off the ball if their situations were reversed- why does Dany (who hasn't seen solid proof of the dead) lose interest in fighting the war at hand- especially now that it is almost won? Were Jon's cave paintings that good?

I don't see what the Lannisters can contribute to the war against the dead anyway given that their army seems to have been all but wiped out (Cersei was talking mercenary reliance), the Tarlys are dead and the war will be on land so Euron is redundant (as well as being deeply untrustworthy and likely to leave the service of the Lannisters anyway given Cersei's pregnancy). All they have at this stage are the walls of KL, the garrison, Euron (for now) and a wad of gold- none of which are game changers against the Night King.

I see why Cersei is hot for the plan: even though I doubt she believes in or cares very much about the army of the dead a truce gives her side a badly needed respite. Team Jon has been all about it from day one. I just don't get Dany's sudden conversion given the state of play.

Jon's "put your trust in a stranger" line is what I thought changed Danys mind, especially after Drogon had a positive reaction to him.

I don't think they expect the Lannisters to contribute feck all, but it would be mean a lower chance of Cersei stabbing them in the back. Not at all really, but they don't know that, optimism and all that.

wp_rathead

wp_rathead wrote: »

Lads, what did one of the Maesters say in jest about a "Kraken rising up and killing Aegon the conqueror"? Ye think could be some kind of shadowing of Euron (or even Theon) killing Dany?

Ok so this is what the Maester said:
“Don’t forget the prophecy of Lodos, who promised that the Drowned God would rise up and destroy Aegon the Conqueror”

Didn't Euron refer to himself as The Drowned God on the bridge with Balon?

Dyr

First episode this season I really enjoyed, although lady dragons constant doe eyes at Jon Snow was a bit OTT.

Dyr

Fromvert wrote: »

So will Gilly's discovery be brought up again. A few scenarios that I'm thinking

- she brought the pooping Maester's book with her so Jon's parents can be revealed to the other characters in the future.
- someone will mention Rhaegar in passing and she'll say oh he's the guy who got remarried, which leads to some questions.
- it'll be a case of that's all you get about his lineage, he's not going to rule but here's a slice of info, join the dots together yourself.

I think the point of sam remembering the exact amount of steps that she mentioned is to point out that he has very good recall even when he's not paying attention....

CMOTDibbler

wp_rathead wrote: »

Ok so this is what the Maester said:
“Don’t forget the prophecy of Lodos, who promised that the Drowned God would rise up and destroy Aegon the Conqueror”

Didn't Euron refer to himself as The Drowned God on the bridge with Balon?

Aegon the conquerer is long dead though. Did he drown?

wp_rathead

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Aegon the conquerer is long dead though. Did he drown?

There is another Dragon Riding Conqueror about

*Let me wiggle in the tinfoil*
Edit: maybe this is better for the Speculation Thread?

CMOTDibbler

wp_rathead wrote: »

There is another Dragon Riding Conqueror about

*Let me wiggle in the tinfoil*
Edit: maybe this is better for the Speculation Thread?

Worse:

There could be another Aegon about.

CMOTDibbler

I felt very sorry for poor old Dickon Tarly. Seemed like a nice enough (if somewhat earnest) young chap, who was saddled with a complete dick of a father. All Tarly senior had to do was bend the bloody knee and Dickon was off the hook. He didn't even try too hard to save his son and actually seemed glad of the company . I was sure Dickon had a future after having had to endure slagging from Jaime and Bronn. As it turned out, they were only minor burns.

Anyhoo, I got to wondering (as you do) how Dany lined up Drogon to toast the right people on command. I mean was there a kind of blue circle like a drop zone in golf or something? Or maybe it's just where she looks. Kind of like a heads up display on a fighter aircraft. Drogon just tracks her head movements. Would make it vitally important that none of her entourage interrupt her mid-Dracarys as it were.

blackwhite

ardinn wrote: »

Not sure about that either - when a series hits 100 episodes they get something called "syndication" money

This turns the series from a great earner into mega money - like seriously bigger earnings - difference of a 2 up 2 down to a 1000acre acre estate money!!!

I cant see them leaving it at 84! Maybe (probably) wrong though!!

Syndication isn't something that happens automatically when a series passes a number of episodes - it's where the producers decide to (and are able to find buyers) licence the progam to multiple channels/networks to broadcast re-runs etc. (i.e. like Friends being syndicated on Comedy Central)

It's nothing to do with the volume of episodes produced - it's down to the popularity/marketability of the show, and the expected demand for repeat viewing.

The 100 episode "threshold" is simply a rule of thumb for how likely a show is, or isn't, to be successfully syndicated (and is usually intended for 30-min shows that will be shown in blocks of 2 or 4 episodes at a time).
Something that's been as culturally significant as GOT would not have any problem being syndicated regardless of the number of episodes they ultimately finish on.
TBH - the irregular episode run-times are more likely to cause issues for syndication buyers when it comes to GOT.

A show with a large volume of episodes is more attractive for syndication because it's obviously popular enough to justify a lengthy production run, and the more episodes then the longer the interval between repeats will be - but there's no minimum number of episodes required for syndication if a show is popular enough to justify it.

That said - HBO have mostly avoided traditional syndication for their shows (with a few exceptions like Entourage and Sex and the City) - instead licencing their major hits to subscription-based streaming services like Amazon.

wp_rathead

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Worse:

There could be another Aegon about.

oh I know, but don't see them using that storyline at all in the show so wonder what they mean-
all probably a red herring but it's fun to think about

Dyr

Am I the only one noticing the bastarding crows cawing in the background in certain scenes?

Loafing Oaf

Daith wrote: »

Yeah I'm not buying the wight hunt.

Everyone: "Here look at this"
Cersei: "It's a reanimated corpse. I've a reanimated corpse." *Taps The Mountain*

"And didn't you yourself Jon Snow take a knife through the heart at one point?":P

Gbear

The Arya story doesn't really work.

You'd have to be some thundering dickhead not to understand that she wrote that message under duress.

I suppose they were trying to make the case that Arya already distrusts her this episode but after such a short turnaround from the previous episode they really didn't sell it.
She just looks like an absolute moron.

Also, I'm not sure what the term is for Littlefinger's plan - it's the sort that requires foreknowledge of the plot being given to him by the writers.

connemara man wrote: »

Gendry said he can handle himself and crushed 2 unarmed soldiers by attacking them from behind, with a weapon of his own making, that's a version of what he works every day with. definitely not great warrior stuff

Tell, not show. They don't have time for showing anymore.

Dave_The_Sheep

Well, that was ... something. Obviously a bit slower paced than last week, though it had to be I suppose. Some points:

1. I really liked the bend-the-knee/Tarly-death scene, that was really well done. Tyrion continues to impress there and pity Tarly had to go, he was a right hard nose bastard. Daenerys continuing to take steps along the path to Mad-King hood, though I suppose she'd argue that killing those two saved the lives of many more common soldiers who had til that point refused to bend the knee.

2. Drogon and Jon having their little moment pretty much seals that side of things regarding Dragonriders and will likely push down the Jon/Daenerys marriage route. Mind you, quite what Jon was thinking "let's pet the dragon, who's a good boy then" ... quite the leap of faith. The "Wasn't the word I was thinking of, but" bit was good for a laugh too. Dany is one step closer to finding out Jon has come back from the dead. Good to see Jorah and his Khaleesi getting back together, bonus of the first bit of geniunely decent acting from Clarke so far this season. Similarly in the goodbye sequence as the lads head off.

3. I'm unsure about the Arya / Sansa / Littlefinger conflict that's going on there. Arya might be changed, but she's not an idiot. She'd know full well that Sansa wrote that under pressure / duress. The suspicion from Arya just doens't make sense and seems to be drummed up by the writers to keep that side of things interesting / resolve the Littlefinger situation.

4. The whole "capture a wight [edit - thanks Rathead - as I meant, Wight] " thing is bat**** crazy, and makes no sense. Pure fan service (again) from the writers to get the Seven Samurai heading up North together. They have to get from Dragonstone -> Eastwatch -> to the North -> back to Eastwatch -> Back to Kings Landing ... then bring it to Cersei and hope that she's going to see reason. No sign of it so far. And how long is it going to take for them to do all this (given what else could/will be going on in the meantime) given the travel time involved? Surely the WW will have arrived by then, or Cersei's kid to be at least well on the way.

5. For a city that's on the brink of a siege, it's awful ****ing easy for Davos and Tyrion to get into King's Landing. Row in, plain view of everyone, have a stroll around, kill a few guards, row out. No hassle. Gendry coming back again is nice and all, but I'm wondering what the point is ... and then the "thought you might still be rowing" line. More fan service.

Fair play to Dinklage and Coster-Waldau during their scene here, great stuff from them. Dialogue wasn't half bad either.

6. Cersei's pregnancy. I'm just not buying it. Pure manipulation on her part, otherwise it's political suicide. She's only got two things going for her in this war, Euron Greyjoy and his fleet and the Iron Bank's money to hire the Golden Company. If she alienates Euron, which having a kid with Jamie would absolutely do as it's the only thing Euron wants ... then no way the Iron Bank will back her in the war, so the other disappears too.

7. Not sure where the Sam and Gilly thing is going. He (randomly?) takes a bunch of scrolls from the Citadel and they head off with themselves. Will those scrolls randomly have info about Jon's parentage or will that all come from Bran? Or is it info vital to a war effort.

8. So much manliness in that cell scene at the end. Snow, Tormund, Mormont, Ser Gregor, Gendry, Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr. While it's all massively convenient and as much as I dislike the writing involved in that plotline, because it's totall sh*te, that's a solid group of lads and hopefully we'll get some decent dialogue out of it, especially given some of them hate each other.

I don't see Jorah and maybe the Hound coming back from that trip, sadly enough. Someone's going to have to take one for the team at some point ... or we'll get a miraculous dragon rescue (since Jon's a Targ now etc).

The teleportation is getting to me more and more here. We've had people popping all over the place. Tyrion goes from Dragonstone to Kings Landing and back, then the lads go from Dragonstone -> Eastwatch as detailed above ... this **** should take months, even by sea ... which by the way, is ruled by Euron. I get that we're speeding things up and not doing travel anymore, but can we please try for a bit of rationality to the writing. Apparently making sense isn't required anymore.

(Oh, and speaking of non-sensical writing how the flying f*ck did Jamie and Bronn go into the water 20 yards away from Drogon and end up a few hundred metres downstream ... in a completley placid river ... dressed in full f*cking armour ... even with their swords still attached.)

I'm enjoying the show still, but it's becoming harder to put up with the inconsistency in the name of fan-service, cool scenes and a fantasy world.

The White Wolf

This show is such a bastard for conflicting me. Lord Tarly achieves both hatred (his disgust at the mere thought of reuniting with his son) and compassion (how he touches his other son before being roasted alive) in the matter of a minute.

RobbingBandit

More than one way to reanimate a corpse, Beric and Jon are fire wights brought back through the Lord of light, the Hound not sure thought it was elder brother that brought him back then there are the wights brought back by the night king and finally Gregor by Qyburn. The night king seems to be using a method of the children of the forest, anyone else think Gendry may be a glamour charm?

wp_rathead

3. I'm unsure about the Arya / Sansa / Littlefinger conflict that's going on there. Arya might be changed, but she's not an idiot. She'd know full well that Sansa wrote that under pressure / duress. The suspicion from Arya just doens't make sense and seems to be drummed up by the writers to keep that side of things interesting / resolve the Littlefinger situation.

4. The whole "capture a white walker" thing is bat**** crazy, and makes no sense.

3) well Ayra doesn't know about about Sansa's story at all- all she remembers is her always wanting to be a Lady- which she now is and sleeping in their parent's bedroom. She remembers Sansa not standing up for Nymeria. For all she knows she was living in luxury in Kings Landing during the time she was struggling. The whole bit Ayra showed her niavity which I kinda liked- we saw her last week be a great fighter but she is still a child and ignorant of alot the going ons.

4) They plan on capturing A Wight, not a White Walker. But ya, it's bit of a Hail Mary that whole plan. It'll be fun but jaysus it kinda came out of no where and does require you to just "go with it"..

Dave_The_Sheep

wp_rathead wrote: »

3) well Ayra doesn't know about about Sansa's story at all- all she remembers is her always wanting to be a Lady- which she now is and sleeping in their parent's bedroom. She remembers Sansa not standing up for Nymeria. For all she knows she was living in luxury in Kings Landing during the time she was struggling. The whole bit Ayra showed her niavity which I kinda liked- we saw her last week be a great fighter but she is still a child and ignorant of alot the going ons.

4) They plan on capturing A Wight, not a White Walker. But ya, it's bit of a Hail Mary that whole plan. It'll be fun but jaysus it kinda came out of no where and does require you to just "go with it"..

3. She saw Sansa going nuts screaming when their father has his head cut off. I don't think it's too much to expect her to figure it out, particularly after talking to Sansa for a short while behind the scenes.

4. Indeed, and thanks for letting me know, I know I typed White Walker - but as you say a wight is what I meant. I'll edit that - and my complaints were about that plan. It's seriously "we're doing this, get over it".

CMOTDibbler

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

7. Not sure where the Sam and Gilly thing is going. He (randomly?) takes a bunch of scrolls from the Citadel and they head off with themselves. Will those scrolls randomly have info about Jon's parentage or will that all come from Bran? Or is it info vital to a war effort.

The info on Jon is in Maynard's book that Sam gave to the kid. It will turn up later no doubt.

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

The teleportation is getting to me more and more here. We've had people popping all over the place. Tyrion goes from Dragonstone to Kings Landing and back, then the lads go from Dragonstone -> Eastwatch as detailed above ... this **** should take months, even by sea ... which by the way, is ruled by Euron. I get that we're speeding things up and not doing travel anymore, but can we please try for a bit of rationality to the writing. Apparently making sense isn't required anymore.

Dragonstone to KL isn't far. Certainly no more than a day or two by boat. Would assume ship for part of it.

But I'm kinda tired of hearing this complaint. This stuff has been happening all the damn show long. There was even a meme about it featuring Varys a couple of seasons back. So now when I reply, I just ask the obvious question. What do you want them to do?

Dave_The_Sheep

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

But I'm kinda tired of hearing this complaint. This stuff has been happening all the damn show long. There was even a meme about it featuring Varys a couple of seasons back. So now when I reply, I just ask the obvious question. What do you want them to do?

It really hasn't, certainly not in the earlier seasons (bar maybe one or two I can think of - edited). The Varys meme was about the last episode of last season - Varys going between Dorne and Dany's side of the ocean. So it's not even a full season ago - and coincidentally also happens after they've passed out the source material.

The way they've done the previous seasons has been to show some travel, eg Arya and the Hound, or Jamie and Brienne. What they're doing now is having bits of more or less everyone in each episode, which requires teleportation like they're doing. If they're not going to show travel, then segment the different scenes in the show into different episodes. So there's longer scenes of the same people but less scenes per episode. Just a thought.

I don't like this argument anyway. I'm not a screenwriter. I don't get paid **** loads to do this. Much like I can't play sports to a high level, doesn't mean I can't critique someone's performance. I shouldn't have to come up with a solution when the problem is as obvious as this.

Dyr

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

(Oh, and speaking of non-sensical writing how the flying f*ck did Jamie and Bronn go into the water 20 yards away from Drogon and end up a few hundred metres downstream ... in a completley placid river ... dressed in full f*cking armour ... even with their swords still attached.)

I'm enjoying the show still, but it's becoming harder to put up with the inconsistency in the name of fan-service, cool scenes and a fantasy world.

first thing I noticed, I though "current, maybe?" then there was none

It's not as funny as the previous episode where apparently there was massive drop in the river about two feet from the bank. Must have been a reservoir

Skyrimaddict

The reason Davos would look for Gendry is simple, he was and still is a high quality smith in Kings Landing.
One by the way, who does not like the Lannisters, and oh yeah, has also heard about the "terrors in the night" from Mellisandre.

I am not sure why some are surprised he was sought. You need to armor up, go to the man with skills, reason and understanding of what your fighting.

RobbingBandit

Davos has lost most of his children, he also lost princess shireen, Gendry would be of special interest to him given that he was a ward of Stannis while Davis was with the dead king, he and Gendry share a bond. I also wouldn't rule out Milisandrea being involved some how.

CMOTDibbler

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

It really hasn't, certainly not in the earlier seasons (bar maybe one or two I can think of - edited). The Varys meme was about the last episode of last season - Varys going between Dorne and Dany's side of the ocean. So it's not even a full season ago - and coincidentally also happens after they've passed out the source material.

Arya teleported around Essos as did Tyrion. And those were massive distances. Littlefiinger was the first known teleporter and that was long before last season. He was popping up in KL, Harrenhal, The Vale and Winterfell at will.

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

If they're not going to show travel, then segment the different scenes in the show into different episodes. So there's longer scenes of the same people but less scenes per episode. Just a thought.

You're then going to have needless filler to pad out those scenes. That would seriously impact the experience imo. So we see Tyrion at KL and then don't see him return until next episode. So the lads can't go to Eastwatch until even later in that episode or probably not until an even later episode because we have to see them on a ship to there. Meanwhile other dependant interactions are on hold as well.

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I don't like this argument anyway. I'm not a screenwriter. I don't get paid **** loads to do this. Much like I can't play sports to a high level, doesn't mean I can't critique someone's performance. I shouldn't have to come up with a solution when the problem is as obvious as this.

You can't critique someone's performance if you don't know what else they could have possibly done. Or do you just say they're crap without giving a reason?

Dave_The_Sheep

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You can't critique someone's performance if you don't know what else they could have possibly done. Or do you just say they're crap without giving a reason?

I told you what I think they could have possibly done.

And I also gave reasons as for why I think the writing is at times lazy, particularly in regard to 'teleportation'. I didn't say crap.

You don't agree, that's fine.

Like I said, I'm still enjoying the show, but it's getting more and more blatant (for reasons) and it irritates me given the quality of the show in previous seasons has been quite high.

Hans Bricks

Thought that was a solid episode.

So what if there's a bit of fan service in Gendry and the fellowship of the Wight ? The last man of Baratheon lineage getting to spread his wings outside the ****hole of Fleabottom. Let him at it. He deserves it.

The "teleportation" cynicism is getting extremely tedious. It'll take maybe a month and a half for Jon and Co. to bring back a wight to the south from the North. Big meh. They need proof of the dead to show to the rest of Westeros, desperate times call for desperate measures and all that. Bran's raven to Dragonstone was obviously meant to accelerate that arc.

That conversation between Jaime and Cersei should have more or less implied that they've conceded defeat from a military standpoint. "Fight like Father would have". (Red Wedding style). Dany controls the chessboard from here in really. She can wait a couple of months for Jon to return to broker the armistice. Remember the advice Tyrion gave in the first war room meeting ? She would rather not take King's Landing with a shower of foreign eunuchs and bloodthirsty Dothraki from the east.

CMOTDibbler

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I told you what I think they could have possibly done.

And I also gave reasons as for why I think the writing is at times lazy, particularly in regard to 'teleportation'. I didn't say crap.

You don't agree, that's fine.

Like I said, I'm still enjoying the show, but it's getting more and more blatant (for reasons) and it irritates me given the quality of the show in previous seasons has been quite high.

You just took the last line of my post and responded to that. I actually engaged with what you thought they could have done and you ignored it.

And as I said, the 'teleportation' was there from the very beginning. Not just since the source material was left behind. Even GRRM did it. And wrote about why it was necessary.

That's why I'm tired of hearing complaints about it.