Season 7 Episode 5 "Eastwatch" - "Book readers"

RobbingBandit

I think it's a game of cat vs cat for Littlefinger and Arya, she doesn't seem to be aware of just how cunning he is he is unaware of how ruthless and cut throat she is. I also think Arya has been thrown off her hunt for vengeance by the little family reconciliation she is in at the moment, Littlefinger has Sansa in his sights which maybe his downfall as her mother was at Riverrun for him when he over reached in trying for her too.

Skyrimaddict

How do i paste a GIF?

CMOTDibbler

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

How do i paste a GIF?

Use the image tool in the toolbar. This one:

Enter the URL of the image in the pop-up box.

Danjamin1

Why didn't they bring any horses north of the wall?

CMOTDibbler

Danjamin1 wrote: »

Why didn't they bring any horses north of the wall?

Probably don't have any in Eastwatch. It's manned by wildlings who would have seen a horse and thought "Mmmm fooood".

blackwhite

ardinn wrote: »

It does actually - Its based on a 20 week run of 1 eisode per day, 5 days a week which apparently is the going golden rule - 20 weeks is a significant number in relation to broadcasting for some reason.

It's guideline/rule of thumb - not a hard and fast absolute rule that means you make 100 episodes and automatically get handed a cheque.


The 100-episode rule of thumb is generally for 30-min episode sitcoms or serial dramas that don't have massive widespread popularity. The 20x5 block is seen as a selling point to make it easier to distribute a moderately popular show(and 88 shows is actually more often seen as the number these days) - but a show that is immensely popular will normally hit syndication regardless of the number of episodes.

But as said HBO rarely syndicate their most popular shows - they sell them to subscription based streaming services or keep them for their own pay-tv/online services - so it's possibly a moot point anyway.

Two of the few shows that HBO actually did syndicate were Sex and the City & Entourage - with 94 and 96 episodes respectively.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Nerdlingr

Bit of a random question but why are there fewer episodes this season? what is /was the exact reasoning for it? Its the bigest show in the world...surely the network would be able to finance an extra two episode... it cant be money was the issue???
I ask because everything seems so rushed.... especially the meeting of Tyrion and Jamie...this should have been a heartbreaking scene of two brothers separated by war and family coming face to face. The last time they saw each other Jamie was helping Tyrion escape after killing his father...it should be a massive scene, one of the major ones, the two Lannister brothers back together. plus Jamie knows Tyrion is innocent of killing Joffrey... It should be a highly charged emotional reunion...And what do we get? two minutes max. Very very disappointing. And cersei know Tyrion is back in Kings Landing but doesnt take him prisoner?? come on. There's so much wrong with the show now that all the little intricate details of the previous seasons have been swept off the table. Its a totally different show now to what it was in the past, it seems to be driven by plot rather than character now and its all the lesser for it.
I'll still watch it till the end but i think maybe it jumped the shark for me a bit with this episode.

CMOTDibbler

Nerdlingr wrote: »

I ask because everything seems so rushed.... especially the meeting of Tyrion and Jamie...this should have been a heartbreaking scene of two brothers separated by war and family coming face to face. The last time they saw each other Jamie was helping Tyrion escape after killing his father...it should be a massive scene, one of the major ones, the two Lannister brothers back together. plus Jamie knows Tyrion is innocent of killing Joffrey... It should be a highly charged emotional reunion...And what do we get? two minutes max. Very very disappointing.

I thought that was a great scene. Not sure how dragging it out would have made it better. It could possibly have lost its power by being diluted. What more could they have said to each other? Have an argument about the rights and wrongs of killing Tywin? Or Tyrion bleating about the unfairness of being a dwarf; he actually started to do that and was cut off thankfully.

Grudaire

So I was wondering if Sam had been deliberately at the copying work to find the annulment. And really it's a convoluted way for the arch Maester to influence Westeros.

Does anyone know of the achmaester is aware of Jon's legitimacy and claim to the throne, and if so anyone know why he can't just send out a raven himself instead of trying to set Sam up to do it?

Nerdlingr

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I thought that was a great scene. Not sure how dragging it out would have made it better. It could possibly have lost its power by being diluted. What more could they have said to each other? Have an argument about the rights and wrongs of killing Tywin? Or Tyrion bleating about the unfairness of being a dwarf; he actually started to do that and was cut off thankfully.

Who mentioned dragging it out? The writing has been poor this year so i guess they didnt trust themselves or weren't able to come up with a decent scene so, as you say, they went back to the tired trope of Tyrion and his 'my father hates me line'. ... to which i was also glad Jamie cut him off. There could have been so much more to their meeting. Jamie obviously loves Tyrion but they're on opposite sides. The scene seemed to be over too quick for me. It reminded me of the Tyrion and Oberyn Martell "I will be your champion" scene and how much resonance that had and how this could have been the same. Here we had two brothers cut off in their prime because the show has to rush the seven samurai up to the wall up north.

CMOTDibbler

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Who mentioned dragging it out? The writing has been poor this year so i guess they didnt trust themselves or weren't able to come up with a decent scene so, as you say, they went back to the tired trope of Tyrion and his 'my father hates me line'. ... to which i was also glad Jamie cut him off. There could have been so much more to their meeting. Jamie obviously loves Tyrion but they're on opposite sides. The scene seemed to be over too quick for me. It reminded me of the Tyrion and Oberyn Martell "I will be your champion" scene and how much resonance that had and how this could have been the same. Here we had two brothers cut off in their prime because the show has to rush the seven samurai up to the wall up north.

I don't know. Perhaps you saying it was two minutes max had me thinking you wanted it longer.

Nerdlingr

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't know. Perhaps you saying it was two minutes max had me thinking you wanted it longer.

I did. But I didn't want it 'dragged out' either. :P .Just the best it could be. Which it wasn't imo.

CMOTDibbler

Nerdlingr wrote: »

I did. But I didn't want it 'dragged out' either. :P .Just the best it could be. Which it wasn't imo.

Yeah, I get it.

But to me it was pretty much spot on. They're on opposite sides of a war, so they wouldn't be keen on giving anything away either. There will be further meetings no doubt, when and if a wight gets captured. Perhaps Jaime might even desert Cersei if he feels she's being a dick about the real threat. Too much interaction between them at this stage might give the game away if that were to happen in the future.

Daith

They're getting a wight so Cersei will call a truce? Are they all mad?

Frankie5Angels

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Worse:

There could be another Aegon about.

Haven't read the rest of the thread after this, but I wondered where this fella was. This may have been mentioned, but could it be

Jon was named Aegon by R+L, but Ned changed it up

and that's how they'll transition it from the books to the tv.

CMOTDibbler

Frankie5Angels wrote: »

Haven't read the rest of the thread after this, but I wondered where this fella was. This may have been mentioned, but could it be

Jon was named Aegon by R+L, but Ned changed it up

and that's how they'll transition it from the books to the tv.

I would think so.

turnikett1

I'm kinda ruining it for myself the more I read in-depth discussion and criticism of Season 7. But feck it, the plot holes and terrible pacing can't just be dismissed for the sake of not wanting to ruin it.

What was the point of the whole Jaime drowning in a lake thing? Let's take out the ridiculous depth of the lake's shoreline for a second. Jaime almost kills himself, and we're left wondering is he actually dead, is he gonna be kept prisoner. But instead, the miraculous escape happens and he's back in KL with Cersei, he's still devoted to her. His character and outlook are unchanged. What was the point of that scene then other than cheap drama and an easy cliffhanger? He could've observed the battle from a hill, or even on the battlefield before escaping, and the exact same result would've occurred = back in KL, still devoted to Cersei. Pointless, and cheap.

Jorah and greyscale? He's dismissed by Dany, comes back with Tyrion, gets greyscale, is dismissed again. Greyscale is cured (and no one seems to care or ask Sam about how he did it), Jorah shoots back to Dany, and is in her service again. What was the goddamn point of him contracting the disease and being quarantined in the first place? Perhaps in the books something will change, but in the show, it is pointless. Presumably the writers didn't want to introduce a whole new arc or story or whatever and opted for a quick magic fix. Oh yeah, now he's at the Wall. Kidnapping wights.

Why does nobody CARE about the fact that Cersei essentially committed regicide, killed hundreds of innocents and just strolled to the Iron Throne with no ONE seeming to give a fiddle? In addition to destroying an ancient and historical site of particular religious significance. Blasphemy, essentially. If this happened in any time period, any epoch, there would be civil unrest. However as Hotpie points out it's basically common knowledge and again not a single commoner in Westeros, or anyone in Cersei's court, seems to really mind. Also, Kevan Lannister anyone? No? Ok.

The teleportation. I know, it's always existed, but it existed within the bounds of reason. In Season 1 we see a lot of "teleporting", Catelyn going from Winterfell to KL and back etc, but this all happened during times of peace, where courtroom intrigue aside, there was nothing really going on. In Season 7 however we're expected to believe that while Jon and co are gallivanting all over Westeros with their brilliant "plan" - which will take months, in theory - Dany is just gonna sit in Dragonstone twiddling her thumbs. I dunno, maybe Dany will say "f**k it" and just go for KL while Jon is away, which I would be happy with, but this is just one example of awful pacing this season.

I understand the need for a quicker succession of events given it's the climax but going from Dany and co. to making a plan about white walkers to Tyrion and Davis arriving in Kings Landing to Tyrion meeting Jaime to Gendry meeting Jon to Mormont's reunion then meeting up with the Hound again for everyone to go on an adventure beyond the Wall in one episode is just too much for my tastes. Still boggles me why we only have 7 episodes this season and not the regular 10. An extra 3 episodes to space things out a bit could've made a world of difference. I might be a called a "comic book store guy nerd" or whatever (as someone eloquently said to someone else a few pages back) but this was one of the worst episodes ever and season 7, the more I think about it (though I liked EP4, magic lake aside), is down there among the worst. Right there alongside Season 5 and the butchery of the Dorne storyline. I almost exclusively read and watch factual books/TV, such as history and politics, so it's pretty uncommon for me to be so emotionally invested into a fictitious story. But I am. Ever since I read the first book in 2012 I've been hooked. I love the world GRRM has created, I love the characters, the stories, the emotions, the ups and downs, the human aspect of everything, how personal it can be, how witty, clever and how dark it all is. So for this to be the end product is preeeeetty disappointing. I'm not saying it's D&D's fault, as I said before I think GRRM f**ked up by taking so long to write WoW and leaving them hanging (though some of the p*ss poor writing cannot be excused, sorry). But, yeah... It's a kind of sad end to A Song of Ice and Fire, one of the most wonderful pieces of literature I've read. I can only hope the books do eventually get written and that they are leagues ahead of the TV show. Can't say I'm really counting the days until the next episode anymore.

Just how I feel anyway, rant over.

prawnsambo

turnikett1 wrote: »

The teleportation. I know, it's always existed, but it existed within the bounds of reason. In Season 1 we see a lot of "teleporting", Catelyn going from Winterfell to KL and back etc, but this all happened during times of peace, where courtroom intrigue aside, there was nothing really going on. In Season 7 however we're expected to believe that while Jon and co are gallivanting all over Westeros with their brilliant "plan" - which will take months, in theory - Dany is just gonna sit in Dragonstone twiddling her thumbs. I dunno, maybe Dany will say "f**k it" and just go for KL while Jon is away, which I would be happy with, but this is just one example of awful pacing this season.

Somebody actually took the trouble to work it out a page ago.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

No. Maybe 1500 at the most. I use the length of the wall (300 miles) as a scale. Eight or nine days is very conservative, based on a speed of about 4 knots. Six to eight knots can be acheived in favourable winds. We're definitely not talking about months. A couple of weeks at most. But also quite possibly done in ten or eleven days. People forget that ships sail 24 hours a day.

So a couple of weeks at most to get to the wall. Not months. They're not in a row boat.

turnikett1

prawnsambo wrote: »

Somebody actually took the trouble to work it out a page ago.


So a couple of weeks at most to get to the wall. Not months. They're not in a row boat.

Point still stands. Is Dany just gonna pace up and down in the throne room for a couple of weeks while Cersei recuperates? Just not buying it. Before anyone pulls out the "Why would you want to have episodes of boring travel scenes?" card that's not the issue, it's the implications of the time travel. Still don't understand how Euron just breezes past Dany en route to KL.

I just feel the dominoes switch, the climax button, has been pressed too soon. We went from 6 season of build up to 1 season of lightning quick events at the cost of logic and quality.

Savage Tyrant

You'd have also thought that Jon would have sent a raven back to Winterfell telling Sansa and the northern lords his plan. The lords might be pleased he was back in the North and stop the obvious insurrection that is being signposted and maybe even have them send some reinforcements to meet them at the wall.
It seems like an obvious move but that wouldn't fit the Sansa/Litterfinger story.
Small plot holes like this grate me a little.

prawnsambo

turnikett1 wrote: »

Point still stands. Is Dany just gonna pace up and down in the throne room for a couple of weeks while Cersei recuperates? Just not buying it.

It doesn't really. You were saying it wasn't in the bounds of reason to have Dany hanging around for months and it's now equally unreasonable whan that timescale is reduced to a couple of weeks?

Plus she has armies to move. The unsullied can now head back to Dragonstone since there's no Lannister army in The Reach to stop them and the Dothraki are there to cover their retreat if needed.

turnikett1

prawnsambo wrote: »

It doesn't really. You were saying it wasn't in the bounds of reason to have Dany hanging around for months and it's now equally unreasonable whan that timescale is reduced to a couple of weeks?

Plus she has armies to move. The unsullied can now head back to Dragonstone since there's no Lannister army in The Reach to stop them and the Dothraki are there to cover their retreat if needed.

She doesn't need the Unsullied, they'd probably be better off garrisoning Casterly Rock anyways. The Lannister army is destroyed, evidenced by the fact that Cersei is talking about hiring mercenaries. Why would Dany just sit there and wait when she, as she says so herself, has 3 dragons and a massive Dothraki horde waiting to let rip? Why does she need a couple of weeks to plan (what exactly? her options are very straightforward) and move armies when her main army is outside KL, and she and her dragons are not far?

.......

This post has been deleted.

turnikett1

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I guess I meant to what end did that scene serve, how did it advance Jaime as a character and how did it advance the Cersei-Jaime-Dany plot? As I say, you could've had Jaime loiter around the battlefield, and almost get killed by some other means, then have him go back to KL. Either way the result is the same, he arrives back in KL and is still devoted to Cersei. Ok perhaps his character isn't 100% the same, he's been having second thoughts on Cersei since Olenna and has seen the dragons but ultimately as the last episode suggests he is still in the service of Cersei. I wouldn't have minded the lake thing if he had been taken prisoner. I was actually really looking forward to him being a prisoner and the ensuing dynamic and the potential hostage situation, but when you take that out of it and just have him go back to KL as normal it just seems pointless.

prawnsambo

turnikett1 wrote: »

She doesn't need the Unsullied, they'd probably be better off garrisoning Casterly Rock anyways. The Lannister army is destroyed, evidenced by the fact that Cersei is talking about hiring mercenaries. Why would Dany just sit there and wait when she, as she says so herself, has 3 dragons and a massive Dothraki horde waiting to let rip? Why does she need a couple of weeks to plan (what exactly? her options are very straightforward) and move armies when her main army is outside KL, and she and her dragons are not far?

She doesn't need Casterly Rock. It was only ever an attack to reduce the Lannister army and hurt the Lannisters. Since it turned out to be something of a Trojan Horse, has no food stores and the Lannister army was elsewhere (and now a good chunk of it is crispy), the unsullied staying there is pointless.

And why does Dany need to rush in? She has destroyed a good chunk of the food destined for KL, she has control of the Reach and also could use her dragons to destroy any shipping coming into Blackwater bay. The stated strategy was to besiege KL and force Cersei's surrender. Having part of your army in a useless castle would be pretty pointless.

Also her main army is actually Dothraki. Not really the kind of army you can use to storm a castle. They're cavalry.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Paddy Cow wrote: »

It would be really disappointing if Arya is as stupid as LF thinks she is.

You would be too if you spent a whole season getting hit in the head by a quarterstaff. Although the process also apparently teaches you how to pick locks.

prawnsambo

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

You would be too if you spent a whole season getting hit in the head by a quarterstaff. Although the process also apparently teaches you how to pick locks.

You're not much of an assassin if you're defeated by a lock.

Nerdlingr

The only reason Jaime goes in the lake is for dramatic effect. Nothing else. It doesn't serve the story, it doesn't serve the character, it doesn't serve anything other than the show. They needed a TV cliff hanger after the battle, this was it. Everything serves the show now. Its the same reason Jamie and Bronn basically walk back to KL, why the seven go beyond the wall...there's no reasoning behind a lot of the things that are happening in the show now. Before the characters actions moved the plot forward, now the plot is moving the characters forward.... it seems to be : "we have to get to the end, lets set things up so that it all moves forward in the allocated timescale.. no matter how ludicrous the characters actions/ or plot-holes become".

CMOTDibbler

turnikett1 wrote: »

What was the point of the whole Jaime drowning in a lake thing? Let's take out the ridiculous depth of the lake's shoreline for a second. Jaime almost kills himself, and we're left wondering is he actually dead, is he gonna be kept prisoner. But instead, the miraculous escape happens and he's back in KL with Cersei, he's still devoted to her. His character and outlook are unchanged. What was the point of that scene then other than cheap drama and an easy cliffhanger? He could've observed the battle from a hill, or even on the battlefield before escaping, and the exact same result would've occurred = back in KL, still devoted to Cersei. Pointless, and cheap.

Not sure why getting almost drowned in a lake or not should affect his devotion to Cersei. Why would you expect that? Yes it was drama, though I suspect it wasn't that cheap. . If anything, it showed Jaime is still a warrior at heart and won't skulk in the rear during a battle.

turnikett1 wrote: »

Jorah and greyscale? He's dismissed by Dany, comes back with Tyrion, gets greyscale, is dismissed again. Greyscale is cured (and no one seems to care or ask Sam about how he did it), Jorah shoots back to Dany, and is in her service again. What was the goddamn point of him contracting the disease and being quarantined in the first place? Perhaps in the books something will change, but in the show, it is pointless. Presumably the writers didn't want to introduce a whole new arc or story or whatever and opted for a quick magic fix. Oh yeah, now he's at the Wall. Kidnapping wights.

He clearly discussed the method with ArchMaester Ebron before he did it and later was asked how he'd succeeded when so many others had failed. Don't you remember this? Also, with Jorah gone, Tyrion becomes hand of the Queen.

turnikett1 wrote: »

Why does nobody CARE about the fact that Cersei essentially committed regicide, killed hundreds of innocents and just strolled to the Iron Throne with no ONE seeming to give a fiddle? In addition to destroying an ancient and historical site of particular religious significance. Blasphemy, essentially. If this happened in any time period, any epoch, there would be civil unrest. However as Hotpie points out it's basically common knowledge and again not a single commoner in Westeros, or anyone in Cersei's court, seems to really mind. Also, Kevan Lannister anyone? No? Ok.

Well Olenna Tyrrell cared...

turnikett1 wrote: »

The teleportation. I know, it's always existed, but it existed within the bounds of reason. In Season 1 we see a lot of "teleporting", Catelyn going from Winterfell to KL and back etc, but this all happened during times of peace, where courtroom intrigue aside, there was nothing really going on. In Season 7 however we're expected to believe that while Jon and co are gallivanting all over Westeros with their brilliant "plan" - which will take months, in theory - Dany is just gonna sit in Dragonstone twiddling her thumbs. I dunno, maybe Dany will say "f**k it" and just go for KL while Jon is away, which I would be happy with, but this is just one example of awful pacing this season.

And as others have pointed out, it won't take months. And Dany wants to besiege KL, not burn it down with everyone in it.