Season 7 Episode 5 "Eastwatch" - "Book readers"

Liam O

Literally off the top of my head would smarter writing not have been to have Jaime captured and used for negotiating the armistice and Davos picks up Gendry while delivering him? The whole wight capturing mission is pure nonsense as was Jaime and Bronn's swim.

Another week and another major house obliterated. Is there even people in the Reach, Riverlands and Dorne anymore? Do they even exist on the map? Would make the teleportation make more sense.

CMOTDibbler

Liam O wrote: »

Literally off the top of my head would smarter writing not have been to have Jaime captured and used for negotiating the armistice and Davos picks up Gendry while delivering him? The whole wight capturing mission is pure nonsense as was Jaime and Bronn's swim.

I had thought that too. But then it occurred to me that Jaime may be needed to rebel against Cersei in some way. I just feel that's where he's headed as a character.

maudgonner

Liam O wrote: »

Literally off the top of my head would smarter writing not have been to have Jaime captured and used for negotiating the armistice and Davos picks up Gendry while delivering him? The whole wight capturing mission is pure nonsense as was Jaime and Bronn's swim.

I think having Jamie being a POW again would have been too similar to previous seasons. His escape was a bit far fetched but they needed to get him out of there somehow. I don't think Jamie could have sat back and watched the battle from a distance (as was suggested up thread), letting others, Bronn in particular, do the fighting for him. You want him to be a likeable character and his courage is a big part of that. I think Jamie will end up being a hero, not a pawn used in negotiations.

Dave_The_Sheep

maudgonner wrote: »

I think having Jamie being a POW again would have been too similar to previous seasons. His escape was a bit far fetched but they needed to get him out of there somehow. I don't think Jamie could have sat back and watched the battle from a distance (as was suggested up thread), letting others, Bronn in particular, do the fighting for him. You want him to be a likeable character and his courage is a big part of that. I think Jamie will end up being a hero, not a pawn used in negotiations.

Agreed, it's in his nature to charge Drogon at the end of the last episode - a noble charge with little chance of survival to potentially end the war. No way he stands back and lets the other's fight for him either. He's always been one to do it himself (even back fighting Robb and Ned Stark) especially after he's seen **** loads of Lannister men get incinerated and butchered by the Dothraki and Drogon.

His arc has been one that's gone from unlikeable dickhead to the most changed character in the show, probably. I think most of us want him to turn on Cersei and be the hero he was when he took out the Mad King and his pyromancers to save King's Landing.

One way I'd have thought they'd have done the whole 'betray Cersei' thing (and we know/hope it's coming) is that Bronn and Jamie are captured, they attempt to ransom him back for Yara Greyjoy, Cersei refuses and either they send him back knowing that she's refused to ransom him and with the truce offer. Not my theory by the way, but one I read that made a lot of sense and avoided the miraculous escape and the rather easy-access to King's Landing (though then we don't get Gendry, at least that way). No we have the pregnancy plotline, is it real, is it his, etc. instead. The other feels more elegant to me.

I am looking forward to seeing how they manage the betrayal though.

CMOTDibbler

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I am looking forward to seeing how they manage the betrayal though.

One possibility is if Cersei 'plays' the north angle and promises to send troops north. She's ulikely to tell Jaime that that's her plan and it will be one betrayal too many.

That's the word she used to describe Jaime meeting Tyrion. Despite the fact that Jaime didn't arrange it, knew nothing about it and told her about it immediately afterwards. I thought it an unusual choice of word to describe what Cersei admitted she knew about beforehand.

To me, she's playing Jaime like any other player in the game of thrones. He's not the man to be played like that.

Dave_The_Sheep

Indeed, he's not. You could see him saying "what betrayal, you loon?" in his head.

I also don't think she knew about it beforehand. There's no way she'd have let it happen without capturing Tyrion if she had. There was no reason for her to not capture him. She just guessed based on Tyrion and Jamies mutual relationship with Bronn.

Much like the pregnancy, I think it's just a lie to manipulate him. A Jamie pregnancy politically does nothing for her and loses her her last ace card. She's nuts, but she's not that stupid yet.

CMOTDibbler

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Indeed, he's not. You could see him saying "what betrayal, you loon?" in his head.

I also don't think she knew about it beforehand. There's no way she'd have let it happen without capturing Tyrion if she had. There was no reason for her to not capture him. She just guessed based on Tyrion and Jamies mutual relationship with Bronn.

Much like the pregnancy, I think it's just a lie to manipulate him. A Jamie pregnancy politically does nothing for her and loses her her last ace card. She's nuts, but she's not that stupid yet.

Good point about Bronn. And the way she brought it up was indirect enough that she could feed off his reaction.

Initially i thought the pregnancy was a lie. But I'm not so sure now. After all, that's something that manifests itself relatively quickly and you'd have to reckon she's at least a month along at this stage. The other thing I noticed is that she didn't have the obligatory glass of wine when Jaime walked in. No wine or wine glasses anywhere to be seen.

Obviously those kinds of precautions wouldn't have been known of back then, but TV shows can't really do stuff like that without somebody getting excited. :rolleyes:

ardinn

At the pace the show is now going I fully expect the child to be born next episode and reach an age or fighting prowess and for it to kill Jamie!!!

CMOTDibbler

ardinn wrote: »

At the pace the show is now going I fully expect the child to be born next episode and reach an age or fighting prowess and for it to kill Jamie!!!

Child won't be born. The prophecy said she'd have three children. So it either dies with her or it dies by miscarriage.

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I felt very sorry for poor old Dickon Tarly. Seemed like a nice enough (if somewhat earnest) young chap, who was saddled with a complete dick of a father. All Tarly senior had to do was bend the bloody knee and Dickon was off the hook. He didn't even try too hard to save his son and actually seemed glad of the companyD

Randyl did try to save him though and, short of knocking him out and dragging Dickon back into line, I'm not sure what more he could have done.

When Dickon first stands up, Randyl barks at him to shut up and keep back- presumably having instructed him off camera to keep his head down. Randyl attempts to disown his son, dismissing him as a "stupid boy" before Dickon boldly announces himself. Finally, when Dickon is given one last chance to bend the knee, Randyl can be seen to give him a nod giving him permission and encouragement to do so.

Far from being glad his son joined him, it seemed to distress Tarly senior greatly that he stepped up and he did everything possible under the circumstances to stop him doing so.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

Randyl did try to save him though and, short of knocking him out and dragging Dickon back into line, I'm not sure what more he could have done.

When Dickon first stands up, Randyl barks at him to shut up and keep back- presumably having instructed him off camera to keep his head down. Randyl attempts to disown his son, dismissing him as a "stupid boy" before Dickon boldly announces himself. Finally, when Dickon is given one last chance to bend the knee, Randyl can be seen to give him a nod giving him permission and encouragement to do so.

Far from being glad his son joined him, it seemed to distress Tarly senior greatly that he stepped up and he did everything possible under the circumstances to stop him doing so.

A man who was basically bought by the Lannisters and turned on his Lord couldn't bend the knee to save his son and his house?

And the nod was the best he could do?

DeadHand

I sympathise with the Tarlys.

Randyl is indeed a dick and a man capable of cruelty- he treats Sam abominably and seems disappointed when Jaime stops him whipping stragglers. But, from his point of view, we have Dany arriving in Westeros with an army composed mostly of barbarians who's culture revolves around destruction, slavery and rape. As one of the few remaining capable and widely respected Westerosi lords (one with a daughter and a wife he respects), Tarly must have felt honour bound to help organise and lead a native resistance against what he had good reason to believe would be the rape and enslavement of the people of Westeros.

We know that he also has his eye on the Stewardship of the South- there was self-interest at play the man isn't a saint but, on the whole, I believe his motivations were mostly honourable: to protect Westeros in what he saw as a defensive war.

We also know Dany curbs the excesses of her followers but Randyl, subjected as he was to Lannister propaganda, was not to know this.

I don't believe he was a traitor either, he pledged no oath to Dany. He was sworn to house Tyrell but house Tyrell was dead- Olenna was no more a Tyrell than Cersei was a Baratheon. Oleanna assumed control of Highgarden in the same way that Cersei assumed control of the Iron Throne: through untimely deaths, marriage and a lack of alternatives. Their claims to their respective inheritances are equally shaky and unorthodox.

Randyl could be branded a traitor had he joined either side or, indeed, had he just sat in Hornhill. It is clear he resented having to fight Oleanna and that he disliked Cersei. He only backed the Lannosters as a "lesser of two evils" type decision. Though he recognised Cersei for the tyrant she is, at least under Lannister rule his people would not be enslaved and destroyed. As he said himself "there are no easy choices in war".

I think it's entirely conceivable that he would have backed Dany (as he backed her father) had she used purely Westerosi forces.

As for Dickon, he served the same purpose as the infamous Ed Sheeran scene: to show that fundamentally decent people are forced to act against their nature in times of war. He gave the impression of a good-natured young fella who would much rather be hunting than killing people. Ferociously loyal to his father, he showed enormous courage in both the battle and the manner of his death.

Two immensely brave, honourable and dutiful men, not heroes but closer to being the Starks than the Boltons of the South. Randyl was a hard, cruel man though not a monster- he was a product of his harsh environment. In their last moments he reaches out to touch his son to comfort him- showing that he genuinely loved Dickon.

The relatively brief story of the Tarly's was one of the best examples of a constant element that makes this story great- the moral ambiguity of the characters- heroes who aren't fully good, villains who aren't all bad and so many who fall somewhere in between.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

I sympathise with the Tarlys.

Great post and very well thought out. I can't really argue with your point of view because it's perfectly valid and I would mostly agree with it. I would just take issue with this bit:

DeadHand wrote: »

I don't believe he was a traitor either, he pledged no oath to Dany. He was sworn to house Tyrell but house Tyrell was dead- Olenna was no more a Tyrell than Cersei was a Baratheon. Oleanna assumed control of Highgarden in the same way that Cersei assumed control of the Iron Throne: through untimely deaths, marriage and a lack of alternatives. Their claims to their respective inheritances are equally shaky and unorthodox.

Olenna Tyrrell was the matriarch of House Tyrrell. She was Mace's mother and quite definitely ruled the house through him. No member of that house would ever have crossed her and indeed came to her for advice. Margaery was clearly a fan.

So to say that she was the equivalent of Cersei is way off the mark. There would have been no question in Highgarden of her not taking over. No bannerman of House Tyrrell would have even thought twice about her right to rule them.

That was what Randyll Tarly betrayed. And he did it to put House Tarly in Highgarden. He was very coy about joining the Lannisters until Jaime dangled that carrot in front of him. This is the Boltons betraying the Starks, the Freys breaking faith at the Red Wedding. This is how the Lannisters gain power and remove enemies.

The White Wolf

DeadHand wrote: »

I sympathise with the Tarlys.

Randyl is indeed a dick and a man capable of cruelty- he treats Sam abominably and seems disappointed when Jaime stops him whipping stragglers. But, from his point of view, we have Dany arriving in Westeros with an army composed mostly of barbarians who's culture revolves around destruction, slavery and rape. As one of the few remaining capable and widely respected Westerosi lords (one with a daughter and a wife he respects), Tarly must have felt honour bound to help organise and lead a native resistance against what he had good reason to believe would be the rape and enslavement of the people of Westeros.

We know that he also has his eye on the Stewardship of the South- there was self-interest at play the man isn't a saint but, on the whole, I believe his motivations were mostly honourable: to protect Westeros in what he saw as a defensive war.

We also know Dany curbs the excesses of her followers but Randyl, subjected as he was to Lannister propaganda, was not to know this.

I don't believe he was a traitor either, he pledged no oath to Dany. He was sworn to house Tyrell but house Tyrell was dead- Olenna was no more a Tyrell than Cersei was a Baratheon. Oleanna assumed control of Highgarden in the same way that Cersei assumed control of the Iron Throne: through untimely deaths, marriage and a lack of alternatives. Their claims to their respective inheritances are equally shaky and unorthodox.

Randyl could be branded a traitor had he joined either side or, indeed, had he just sat in Hornhill. It is clear he resented having to fight Oleanna and that he disliked Cersei. He only backed the Lannosters as a "lesser of two evils" type decision. Though he recognised Cersei for the tyrant she is, at least under Lannister rule his people would not be enslaved and destroyed. As he said himself "there are no easy choices in war".

I think it's entirely conceivable that he would have backed Dany (as he backed her father) had she used purely Westerosi forces.

As for Dickon, he served the same purpose as the infamous Ed Sheeran scene: to show that fundamentally decent people are forced to act against their nature in times of war. He gave the impression of a good-natured young fella who would much rather be hunting than killing people. Ferociously loyal to his father, he showed enormous courage in both the battle and the manner of his death.

Two immensely brave, honourable and dutiful men, not heroes but closer to being the Starks than the Boltons of the South. Randyl was a hard, cruel man though not a monster- he was a product of his harsh environment. In their last moments he reaches out to touch his son to comfort him- showing that he genuinely loved Dickon.

The relatively brief story of the Tarly's was one of the best examples of a constant element that makes this story great: the moral ambiguity of the characters: heroes who aren't fully good, villains who aren't all bad and so many who fall somewhere in between.

Which was in contrast to the near panic and disgust he displayed when Tyrion suggested the Night's Watch, where he'd have to spend the rest of his life with his other son....the son he repeatedly threatened with a loss of life.

So while no where near the level of the Boltons, the man is an absolute scumbag. The fact that he displayed affection for the chosen son in his eyes doesn't change that view all that much for me albeit gaining sympathy for a father and son facing death together.

Dickon had all my sympathy for the reasons you mentioned.

DeadHand

The White Wolf wrote: »

Which was in contrast to the near panic and disgust he displayed when Tyrion suggested the Night's Watch, where he'd have to spend the rest of his life with his other son....the son he repeatedly threatened with a loss of life.

I saw no panic and disgust- he was not afraid of The Wall he simply did not accept that Dany had the right to send him there.

I doubt Sam didn't enter into. In any case, he knew Sam was no longer at The Wall.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

I saw no panic and disgust- he was not afraid of The Wall he simply did not accept that Dany had the right to send him there.

I doubt Sam didn't enter into. In any case, he knew Sam was no longer at The Wall.

To be fair to him, he could well have been disgusted with his own betrayal of the Tyrrells. Changing allegiance again would just double down on that. Going to the wall would not have retrieved his honour either. So he chose death.

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

A man who was basically bought by the Lannisters and turned on his Lord couldn't bend the knee to save his son and his house?

And the nod was the best he could do?

I don't believe he was bought by the Lannisters. While the offer of the South may have helped- I believe he fought mostly for the reason I outlined previously: the preservation of Westeros. If the man was so easily bought he'd have taken Dany's offer. His life and that of his son was worth much more than anything the Lannisters could promise.

He didn't turn on his Lord as Oleanna was not his Lord and never had been.

A nod was the best he could do- he's not the type to throw himself on the ground and wail.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

I don't believe he was bought by the Lannisters. While the offer of the South may have helped- I believe he fought mostly for the reason I outlined previously: the preservation of Westeros. If the man was so easily bought he'd have taken Dany's offer. His life and that of his son was worth much more than anything the Lannisters could promise.

He didn't turn on his Lord as Oleanna was not his Lord and never had been.

A nod was the best he could do- he's not the type to throw himself on the ground and wail.

He was clearly bought. He was playing hard to get, up until Jaime basically offered him Highgarden. Next thing we know he's killing Tyrrell bannermen and leaving Jaime finish off Olenna.

Olenna was (as I outlined) the matriarch of House Tyrrell. A figure of power in that house for three generations. Randyll Tarly would have known her all his life. In case of confusion, she was the living representative of the family he swore fealty to. You can't just brush her under the carpet and pretend she and what she represents, doesn't exist. Using the word Lord in this context doesn't exclude Lady. Sansa Stark is being touted as head of House Stark by Littlefinger. Is it somoehow different for her? Or Lysa Arryn before she took a long walk off a short moon door?

Nope. He was a traitor and he knew it.

Oh, and just for sh1ts and giggles, he sided with the woman who wiped out the rest of House Tyrrell. No furriners involved there, just home grown batsh1t craziness.

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

To be fair to him, he could well have been disgusted with his own betrayal of the Tyrrells. Changing allegiance again would just double down on that. Going to the wall would not have retrieved his honour either. So he chose death.

He didn't betray the Tyrells as there was no legitimate House Tyrell left to betray.

He chose death as basically a final "go f*ck yourself" to Dany: a total rejection of her legitimacy.

Though he was a dick in his private life, he died with his martial and political honour fully intact.

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Nope. He was a traitor and he knew it.

No, I don't believe he was and I sincerely doubt he believed he was either.

Oleanna certainly pulled the strings in the Reach for years. Yet, her puppetry and the tolerance thereof was based on the legitimacy of Mace (and probably the quality of her rule also, in fairness). No Mace or Loras means no legitimate house Tyrell. Without them, Oleanna is nothing and is owed nothing by the Tyrell vassals.

Yes, it is different for Lyssa as she ruled through Robin- a legitimate Arryn. It is different for Sansa as she is a Stark. Olenna was neither a Tyrell nor did she have a Tyrell to rule through.

Now, the Southern lords may have rallied around her anyway, and I'm sure some did, out of respect for her capability and standing. But in my view, Randyl lost all respect for her when she facilitied a foreign, barbarous invasion. He may well have thought her unhinged having recently lost her family and unfit for rule.

He might have betrayed Oleanna on a personal level but he may also have concluded that she had betrayed the people of the Reach by inviting onto them GRRM's version of the Mongols in her grief and ruinous desire for revenge.

We don't know how many Southern lords took the Tarly view and how many stuck with Oleanna but, considering how easily Jaime steamrolled what was left of the Tyrell forces, it's fair to deduce that a significant portion of the Reach followed Tarly.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

No, I don't believe he was and I sincerely doubt he believed he was either.

Oleanna certainly pulled the strings in the Reach for years. Yet, her puppetry and the tolerance thereof was based on the legitimacy of Mace (and probably the quality of her rule also, in fairness). No Mace or Loras means no legitimate house Tyrell. Without them, Oleanna is nothing and is owed nothing by the Tyrell vassals.

We actually don't know if there are other Tyrrell heirs. It was hardly such a small family that only had four members.

DeadHand wrote: »

Yes, it is different for Lyssa as she ruled through Robin- a legitimate Arryn. It is different for Sansa as she is a Stark. Olenna was neither a Tyrell nor did she have a Tyrell to rule through.

So how does that work for Cersei Lannister? Or Jon Snow? This seems like you're scratching around looking for excuses for Tarly's treason. He himself balked at betraying the Tyrrell's until Jaime offered him the carrot to quiet his conscience.

TheIrishGrover

I really liked this episode with some usual cons:

Liked

• Thormond back
• Gendry back... With a big ass f*cking hammer
• Davos... As usual
• The Hound to Dondarion "Shut the f*ck up"
• Dany's ruthlessness. Was good to see another, flawed, side to her.
• Varys' speech. Fantastic.

Wasn't gone on

• Enough with the Jon Targaryan. We get it. Dragon like it. Gilly's amazingly sudden ability to read and discovering he's actually legitimate. We know. We don't need it to be beat into our head by Gendry and his hammer.
• Arya turning into Jessica Fletcher
• The Magnificent Seven Rides North. While cool looking it was a bit too typical Fantasy Novel
• Bron's ability to haul an armour-clad man half a mile down river.
• They're teleporting around at this stage

I've said it in other posts: I don't know if it's because the strands are beginning to come together or that GRRM isn't as involved as much anymore but it's all getting pretty standard fantasy at this stage. While it was indeed cool to see such a great group heading Beyond The Wall,it is a VERY typical and obvious Fantasy trope: The stable-boy/orphan/whoever who is the long lost heir to a dynasty and his rough and ready group go on one last mission. Where the worst of them (But Fan-Favourite) will sacrifice himself for the greater good and the noble one will help him. Will bring him back from the dead at the cost of his own life. (For his spinoff books).

Don't get me wrong: I really did enjoy the episode. Thought it was great fun. But there's nothing coming as a shock anymore. You're just ticking off the next things to happen: A dragon dies, gets turned into ice dragon; Jon finds out about his parentage - is too noble to take advantage of it. Will tell them to tell nobody; Magnificent Seven/A-Team will lose half their men. And on and on (But that should be for the speculation thread I suppose)

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

We actually don't know if there are other Tyrrell heirs. It was hardly such a small family that only had four members.

So how does that work for Cersei Lannister? Or Jon Snow? This seems like you're scratching around looking for excuses for Tarly's treason. He himself balked at betraying the Tyrrell's until Jaime offered him the carrot to quiet his conscience.

Nope- no oath, no treason.

The Tyrells have been wiped out, Tyrion said so when addressing Dickon. They appear to have been, in the TV show, a small unit which is why Oleanna caved when Tywin threatened to sign Loras into the Kingsguard.

Cersei, like Oleanna, is an illegitimate ruler. Tarly has no love for her but rowed in behind her in the face of foreign invasion for lack of alternatives. Lesser of two evils type deal. Don't have the foggiest why you'd mention Jon Snow.

Daith

DeadHand wrote: »

Cersei, like Oleanna, is an illegitimate ruler.

There's no illegitimate rulers. The show has repeatedly shown that "power resides where men believes it resides".

I get that people love the various succession lines but in Game of Thrones, seizing power is also valid. Robert, Cersei, Dany (in Essos), Boltons, Jon Snow (a bastard), Littlefinger, etc.

Okay, Jon had power thrust upon him but he's still Lord of Winterfell over two more legitimate people.

Everybody in the Reach knew Olenna Tyrell was the power there.

Dave_The_Sheep

Daith wrote: »

There's no illegitimate rulers. The show has repeatedly shown that "power resides where men believes it resides".

Thing is, that's not compatible with honor which is what is being talked about here.

If there's no illegitimate rulers, and it's based solely on power, then it's perfectly OK to rebel against your liege lord as long as you win. If you have the power to take over ruling, then you can, and it's OK. Tarly declares for the Lannisters, together they take out Olenna and the remaining Tyrells, Tarley takes over in Highgarden and has thus 'won' making it OK.

Reminds me of a line from Shogun:
Toranaga: There are no 'mitigating circumstances' when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord.
Blackthorne: "Unless you win."
Toranaga: “Yes, Mister Foreigner…you have named the one mitigating factor.”

Of course, that doesn't make sense in terms of honour. Either you respect your liege lord/lady and stick by them, or you don't. If Tarly doesn't believe Olenna is his legitimate liege, then his honour is still intact. If he does, then it isn't. So in terms of honour, there absolutely are legitimate and illegitimate rulers in this sense (see also: Ned Stark and Stannis Baratheon).

[edit] I'm not arguing either way that he is or isn't a piece of sh*t. I'm just disappointed he's gone, he was an interesting character in his way.

Loafing Oaf

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Thing is, that's not compatible with honor which is what is being talked about here.

If there's no illegitimate rulers, and it's based solely on power, then it's perfectly OK to rebel against your liege lord as long as you win. If you have the power to take over ruling, then you can, and it's OK. Tarly declares for the Lannisters, together they take out Olenna and the remaining Tyrells, Tarley takes over in Highgarden and has thus 'won' making it OK.

Reminds me of a line from Shogun:
Toranaga: There are no 'mitigating circumstances' when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord.
Blackthorne: "Unless you win."
Toranaga: “Yes, Mister Foreigner…you have named the one mitigating factor.”

.

Or the one quoted by Kevin Costner in JFK:
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.

podgemonster

I enjoyed that episode for what it was and knew it wouldn't hit the highs of the spoils of war, some great dialogue, power plays and reunions and reintroductions, they really pushed travel times this episode but I always understood this to be necessary to squeeze in a fantasy saga into a TV show.


There was so much plot progression from almost every storyline setting us up for the final two major episodes. This episode is essentially what I'd call the calm before the storm. Nice moments of humour too needed after the Tarly execution, Jaime & Bronn, Davos & the goldcloaks, Tyrion & Varys, Sam & Gilly and of course Tormund. I doubt this will be an episode I will re-watch on it's own in years to come unlike the previous.


The scene of the episode for me was Jon Snow meeting Drogon. I found it similar to Arya meeting Nymeria. The beast stalks over aggressively but curious and the Stark stands, cautious but fearless. Jon almost seems to sync with Drogon the way his eyes close and open. I read once that that was a signal cats gave when they trusted you, they'd close their eyes knowing you won't hurt them. Drogon's body language changed considerable once he got Jon Snow's scent.


I can't imagine Euron will be pleased when Cersei is having a baby shower in the Red Keep. That character is liable to do anything.

Daith

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

If Tarly doesn't believe Olenna is his legitimate liege, then his honour is still intact. If he does, then it isn't. So in terms of honour, there absolutely are legitimate and illegitimate rulers in this sense (see also: Ned Stark and Stannis Baratheon).

Honour's a horse isn't?

I get where you're coming from which is why I wanted Dany to tell Randyll that she was born in Westeros and Randyll served her father so what's the issue?

Heffoman

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I really liked this episode with some usual cons:

Liked

• Thormond back
• Gendry back... With a big ass f*cking hammer
• Davos... As usual
• The Hound to Dondarion "Shut the f*ck up"
• Dany's ruthlessness. Was good to see another, flawed, side to her.
• Varys' speech. Fantastic.

Wasn't gone on

• Enough with the Jon Targaryan. We get it. Dragon like it. Gilly's amazingly sudden ability to read and discovering he's actually legitimate. We know. We don't need it to be beat into our head by Gendry and his hammer.
• Arya turning into Jessica Fletcher
• The Magnificent Seven Rides North. While cool looking it was a bit too typical Fantasy Novel
• Bron's ability to haul an armour-clad man half a mile down river.
• They're teleporting around at this stage

I've said it in other posts: I don't know if it's because the strands are beginning to come together or that GRRM isn't as involved as much anymore but it's all getting pretty standard fantasy at this stage. While it was indeed cool to see such a great group heading Beyond The Wall,it is a VERY typical and obvious Fantasy trope: The stable-boy/orphan/whoever who is the long lost heir to a dynasty and his rough and ready group go on one last mission. Where the worst of them (But Fan-Favourite) will sacrifice himself for the greater good and the noble one will help him. Will bring him back from the dead at the cost of his own life. (For his spinoff books).

Don't get me wrong: I really did enjoy the episode. Thought it was great fun. But there's nothing coming as a shock anymore. You're just ticking off the next things to happen: A dragon dies, gets turned into ice dragon; Jon finds out about his parentage - is too noble to take advantage of it. Will tell them to tell nobody; Magnificent Seven/A-Team will lose half their men. And on and on (But that should be for the speculation thread I suppose)

I think the Gilly thing wasnt just to hint that Jon is just a Targaryn bit if the marriage was legal he is the rightful ruler and not his aunt.

On the same lines is Tyrion the third head of the Dragon then. Was that the reason his father hated him? Would make sense.

Liam O

Daith wrote: »

Honour's a horse isn't?

I get where you're coming from which is why I wanted Dany to tell Randyll that she was born in Westeros and Randyll served her father so what's the issue?

Because the writers only mention things that allow the plot to move the way they want to, whether it makes sense or not. One of the most loyal Targ defenders going against the opportunity to further himself with a sure thing once he sees the dragon just doesn't really make sense. Some people in here will try to defend it but the fact is in the books he's looking likely to turn on the Lannisters anyway.