Heavyweight Boxing

Ultimate Seduction

Dates confirmed and press tour announced but still no venue. What a farce!

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I gotta say there isn't much hype about this weekends fight this side of the water,
 I'm guessing its a sell out but I wonder how the pay per view will do ,
I personally think its a gimme fight be over by round 4 , AP isn't the same man he once was , which is understandable at 39,  I don't buy that he is dangerous fight at all,

He is dangerous, win-lose or draw. Has a punch, has skills, pedigree, experience and guts to give it a go...

I think saying it’s not dangerous is naive...

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

He is dangerous, win-lose or draw. Has a punch, has skills, pedigree, experience and guts to give it a go...

I think saying it’s not dangerous is naive...

Turned out as expected, AP to old and to small a after the second round it was game over ,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Turned out as expected, AP to old and to small a after the second round it was game over ,

You saying there was no danger was wrong...there was always danger.

I had AJ to win...

How after rd 2 was it over?

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

You saying there was no danger was wrong...there was always danger.

I had AJ to win...

How after rd 2 was it over?

Theres a danger in every single fight ever ,

Once he didn't catch AJ cold at the start it was over ,
AJ said himself after the fight when a guy comes in that light he knows they have no chance of stopping him

The Nal

FTA69

I really enjoyed that, gave me a lot to think about. Tyson really didn’t do half as well against people who weren’t afraid of him.

Littlehorny

Love the qoute from Atlas right at the end- "he was as strong as a fella as you'd ever meet, but he was as weak as a person as you would ever meet".

walshb

That line is trotted out a lot about Tyson’s opponents being afraid of him, as if people know the exact feeling of these opponents in the moment..and let’s say many were...even more credit to Tyson for his ring brilliance and presence instilling this fear into them. Boxing is after all a game of psychological warfare as well as everything else...

I prefer to deal with facts. He knocked out almost all his foes. Unified the championship, made many world title defenses and then lost. Went to prison and came back...

I don’t care what anyone says. A focused and committed and in peak form Tyson is hell for any man that ever lived, in fear of him or not..

Atlas had many an axe-to-grind.

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

I prefer to deal with facts. He knocked out almost all his foes.

Apart from any of the good ones.

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

Apart from any of the good ones.

Another line trotted out. He knocked out several good ones......

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

Another line trotted out. He knocked out several good ones......

Several ok ones. Anyway we've been down this road before.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057758457

squinn2912

Tyson was amazing. Had a peak Mike fought Lennox of the time I think different story. But I think the noughties version of Lewis beats any version of Mike

normanoffside

squinn2912 wrote: »

Tyson was amazing. Had a peak Mike fought Lennox of the time I think different story. But I think the noughties version of Lewis beats any version of Mike

But Lennox of the time on Tysons (mythical) peak was still amateur.

When Lewis won his Olympic gold Mike was arguably already past his (Mythical) peak.

squinn2912

His peak isn’t mythical it was real. You can call the extent of his talent mythical.
Anyhow I wasn’t sure/didn’t double check the coincidence of dates. Perhaps I ought to have put it a peak Mike vs an early Lewis

walshb

I think squin2912 is matching them fantasy style..

Peak 1980s Tyson beats peak 1990s Lewis in my book. Too heavy hitting and aggressive. Feet too fast and he will land clean and often to KO Lewis. I only give Kewis a points chance here...Tyson was very fit and had an excellent chin and a very good defense...

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

I think squin2912 is matching them fantasy style..

Peak 1980s Tyson beats peak 1990s Lewis in my book. Too heavy hitting and aggressive. Feet too fast and he will land clean and often to KO Lewis. I only give Kewis a points chance here...Tyson was very fit and had an excellent chin and a very good defense...

A lot of the Tyson talk is always what he could have been, but never got there because of himself, Which to me is a huge part of boxing the self sacrifice and how you handle it mentally , the fact he couldn't handle it mean to me anyway he was not one of the best ,  He was missing a huge part of boxing the mental aspect . It effected him in the ring ,
Mike didn't like getting hit, Once someone was not afraid of him he was not the same man,
I love Mike, one of the most exciting heavy weight ever but I think he would have struggled with a lot of the good Big heavyweights,

walshb

He showed one single instance of mental weakness in his entire career.....the biting vs Holyfield, and that, according to him was down to Holyfield butting him.

During his prime and peak over 35 or so fights he never showed any mental weakness, and beat everyone....

No issue assessing him, but so much is OTT and just flat out not true....

To blanket say he was missing the mental aspect of boxing makes no sense. So, for all the fights he won, and some hard fought and tough ones, there was no mental game there? He had no mental strengths to look for?

Even the tough hard losses to Douglas and Holyfield 1 and LL; was there no mental strength or game shown in these fights?

It's utter ludicrous some of the criticisms levied at him when you break them down.

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

He showed one single instance of mental weakness in his entire career.....the biting vs Holyfield, and that, according to him was down to Holyfield butting him.

During his prime and peak over 35 or so fights he never showed any mental weakness, and beat everyone....

No issue assessing him, but so much is OTT and just flat out not true....

To blanket say he was missing the mental aspect of boxing makes no sense. So, for all the fights he won, and some hard fought and tough ones, there was no mental game there? He had no mental strengths to look for?

Even the tough hard losses to Douglas and Holyfield 1 and LL; was there no mental strength or game shown in these fights?

It's utter ludicrous some of the criticisms levied at him when you break them down.

Buster Douglas he didn't train , that part of the mental game,
Norris hit him after the bell no contest
Goliath refused to take pre fight blood tests ,fight only went ahead because Goliath needed the cash,
Botha deducted points because he tried to break his arms repeatedly by clinching and over hooking him ,
There just of the top of my head,

 ,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Buster Douglas he didn't train , that part of the mental game,
Norris hit him after the bell no contest
Goliath refused to take pre fight blood tests ,fight only went ahead because Goliath needed the cash,
Botha deducted points because he tried to break his arms repeatedly by clinching and over hooking him ,
There just of the top of my head,

 ,

He did train for Douglas....He lost......

Was he not as prepared as for previous fights? I'd say very likely. Hardly the only fighter ever to have less than the best training camp.

Like I said, prime career there are no instances of mental weakness....

Post prison when past his best we have the Holyfield instance....

The Norris fight? It was rd 1....clinched and he cuffed him with a shot just after the bell..hardly some indication that he has no mental game.....

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Buster Douglas he didn't train , that part of the mental game,
Norris hit him after the bell no contest
Goliath refused to take pre fight blood tests ,fight only went ahead because Goliath needed the cash,
Botha deducted points because he tried to break his arms repeatedly by clinching and over hooking him ,
There just of the top of my head,

 ,

He did train for Douglas....He lost......

Was he not as prepared as for previous fights? I'd say very likely. Hardly the only fighter ever to have less than the best training camp.

Like I said, prime career there are no instances of mental weakness....

Post prison when past his best we have the Holyfield instance....

The Norris fight? It was rd 1....clinched and he cuffed him with a shot just after the bell..hardly some indication that he has no mental game.....

He claims himself he didn't train for Douglas , said he spent the time in his hotel drinking and with hookers,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

He claims himself he didn't train for Douglas , said he spent the time in his hotel drinking and with hookers,

And?

Maybe he did....

It still doesn't show that he had no mental game....

Very few if any fighters live the game completely.

Ali/Hatton/SRL/Duran etc etc all had their extracurricular activities during their careers...

Like I said, he may not have trained as determined and committed as for other fights, but so what........it is not a sign that he had no mental game or that he had mental weakness...

If so then so did many many many great fighters.....

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

He claims himself he didn't train for Douglas , said he spent the time in his hotel drinking and with hookers,

And?

Maybe he did....

It still doesn't show that he had no mental game....

Very few if any fighters live the game completely.

Ali/Hatton/SRL/Duran etc etc all had their extracurricular activities during their careers...

Like I said, he may not have trained as determined and committed as for other fights, but so what........it is not a sign that he had no mental game or that he had mental weakness...

If so then so did many many many great fighters.....

He was talking about the week of the fight,  its part of the game to prepare properly,
I love these conversations as there no real right or wrong just peoples personal opinions on boxers, its good to hear all the views,

FTA69

Doing a load of sniff, getting smashed and banging a load of brassers a few evenings before a heavyweight title fight is very much a lack of mental strength, discipline and focus. Jesus even Tyson himself admits he lacked that at times.

Nobody is saying that having a pint or going a bit cracked is a sign of weakness, but doing it just before a fight is usually a sign of arrogance or mental drift etc.

I wouldn’t call Tyson a weak boxer either by the way, nobody who’s had a career like his could be called that really. But he has had moments where he has been definitely, perhaps in contrast to someone like Mayweather or Hagler.

walshb

FTA69 wrote: »

Doing a load of sniff, getting smashed and banging a load of brassers a few evenings before a heavyweight title fight is very much a lack of mental strength, discipline and focus. Jesus even Tyson himself admits he lacked that at times.

Nobody is saying that having a pint or going a bit cracked is a sign of weakness, but doing it just before a fight is usually a sign of arrogance or mental drift etc.

I wouldn’t call Tyson a weak boxer either by the way, nobody who’s had a career like his could be called that really. But he has had moments where he has been definitely, perhaps in contrast to someone like Mayweather or Hagler.

My point is that many many greats had this proclivity to be led astray...

I'd also question how much of Tyson's account is embellished to explain his loss, or to even brag...

Plenty plenty fights that showed his mental strength......that is the actual point.

Picking a fight here and there and trying to claim a mental weakness doesn't tell the full story. I could that with almost any of the greats.....

The kind of blanket statement (from the poster) about Tyson not having mental strength is juts flat out wrong....

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

FTA69 wrote: »

Doing a load of sniff, getting smashed and banging a load of brassers a few evenings before a heavyweight title fight is very much a lack of mental strength, discipline and focus. Jesus even Tyson himself admits he lacked that at times.

Nobody is saying that having a pint or going a bit cracked is a sign of weakness, but doing it just before a fight is usually a sign of arrogance or mental drift etc.

I wouldn’t call Tyson a weak boxer either by the way, nobody who’s had a career like his could be called that really. But he has had moments where he has been definitely, perhaps in contrast to someone like Mayweather or Hagler.

My point is that many many greats had this proclivity to be led astray...

I'd also question how much of Tyson's account is embellished to explain his loss, or to even brag...

Plenty plenty fights that showed his mental strength......that is the actual point.

Picking a fight here and there and trying to claim a mental weakness doesn't tell the full story. I could that with almost any of the greats.....

The kind of blanket statement 9from the poster) about Tyson not having mental strength is juts flat out wrong....

Every fighter has mental strength to get in in the first place, But with Tyson I can't ever recall him coming back from behind to win a fight, never showed mental strength like that , when it went bad he lost ,
Now I do realise that it didn't happen to often because he rarely found himself in trouble, but I can't recall seeing him digging in and showing mental strength to turn a fight in his favour,
Iv always thought his mental strength was his one big weakens,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Every fighter has mental strength to get in in the first place, But with Tyson I can't ever recall him coming back from behind to win a fight, never showed mental strength like that , when it went bad he lost ,
Now I do realise that it didn't happen to often because he rarely found himself in trouble, but I can't recall seeing him digging in and showing mental strength to turn a fight in his favour,
Iv always thought his mental strength was his one big weakens,

So because he was very much always winning his fights and clearly, we then argue that we have no examples where he was being beaten and turned things around to grab a win?

Ali not the same here? I can't recall where Ali was being properly beaten, or beaten up and turned it around.

Several other greats not the same here?

It is not at all a sign of mental weakness. Sometimes you can't turn it around due to the opponent juts being that little better on the night.....

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Every fighter has mental strength to get in in the first place, But with Tyson I can't ever recall him coming back from behind to win a fight, never showed mental strength like that , when it went bad he lost ,
Now I do realise that it didn't happen to often because he rarely found himself in trouble, but I can't recall seeing him digging in and showing mental strength to turn a fight in his favour,
Iv always thought his mental strength was his one big weakens,

So because he was very much always winning his fights and clearly, we then argue that we have no examples where he was being beaten and turned things around to grab a win?

Ali not the same here? I can't recall where Ali was being properly beaten, or beaten up and turned it around.

Several other greats not the same here?

It is not at all a sign of mental weakness. Sometimes you can' turn it around due to the opponent juts being that little better on the night.....

Ali most famous fight was a come from behind victory ,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Ali most famous fight was a come from behind victory ,

Zaire?

The one where he was ahead on all cards at KO time?

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

Ali not the same here? I can't recall where Ali was being properly beaten, or beaten up and turned it around.

He was knocked down by Sonny banks and go up and won. He had ointment rubbed in his eyes vs Liston and was blind for a round and a half and still KO'd him. He got dropped by Henry Cooper and got up and won in the next round. He was by his own admission out of it 3 or 4 times in Zaire and KO'd Foreman. He was completely exhausted in Manilla and still threw a crazy amount of punches in round 14 and won the fight. He avenged defeats to Frazier, Norton and Spinks.

Tyson did none of those things.