Heavyweight Boxing

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Wilder was ahead on the official cards but I think everyone else was seeing it as Ortiz ahead of a draw at least,
But I do think Ortiz is very very underrated, He is very slick and also a guy who all the top heavy weight avoid, Its a pity he isn't younger or he'd be right up there,
To be fair he is the only close to top fighter Wilder has fought and Wilder did struggle at times but got the job done in the end  ,
 Would AJ or Fury tire like Ortiz I don't think so .,

But this still has 0 to do with the belief and causal claim that "any" B level fighter beats him on any given night

Are we simply going to wait and wait for this to happen? 40/0 now. Maybe 60/0 he will finally meet this B level lad that beats him...

Anyway, relating to Ortiz: He is not B level, as you have alluded to, and he did not beat Wilder, nor did he stay ahead of him on points.

I am no Wilder fan, but here there seems to be a real dislike for him as a fighter.

He ain't pretty, is unorthodox/awkward, but he gets the job done every time, and to date, nobody has cracked him or shown a way to beat him on points or via KO....

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Wilder was ahead on the official cards but I think everyone else was seeing it as Ortiz ahead of a draw at least,
But I do think Ortiz is very very underrated, He is very slick and also a guy who all the top heavy weight avoid, Its a pity he isn't younger or he'd be right up there,
To be fair he is the only close to top fighter Wilder has fought and Wilder did struggle at times but got the job done in the end  ,
 Would AJ or Fury tire like Ortiz I don't think so .,

But this still has 0 to do with the belief and causal claim that "any" B level fighter beats him on any given night

Are we simply going to wait and wait for this to happen? 40/0 now. Maybe 60/0 he will finally meet this B level lad that beats him...

Anyway, relating to Ortiz: He is not B level, as you have alluded to, and he did not beat Wilder, nor did he stay ahead of him on points.

I am no Wilder fan, but here there seems to be a real dislike for him as a fighter.

He ain't pretty, is unorthodox/awkward, but he gets the job done every time, and to date, nobody has cracked him or shown a way to beat him on points or via KO....

I agree with you no B level fighter beats him, but he really hasn't fought an A level fighter so that will be telling,
Id love to see him fight Whyte if he doesn't fight Fury, Whyte is B level but the British public think he is closer to A level than he is,  If Wilder wipes the floor with Whyte then the hype for the AJ fight would be huge in England,
Ortiz did show if you hit him he goes down ,Wilder lost some of his mystic with that one shot, Lets be fair other than Ortiz he has fought bums ,

walshb

Of the three they have all only fought ONE A level fighter....

Fury beat Wlad

AJ beat Wlad

Wilder beat Ortiz.

Ortiz is an A level fighter.

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Lets be fair other than Ortiz he has fought bums ,

And who, apart from Wald has Fury and AJ fought?

We need to be fair and consistent when judging these three HWs that are considered the top three in the world...

Fury's best win apart from Wlad? Is it Derek plodder Chisora?

AJs best win apart from Wlad? Is it Parker or Whyte?

I'd argue Stiverene (in fight 1) at least as decent as any of the above mentioned...

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Of the three they have all only fought ONE A level fighter....

Fury beat Wlad

AJ beat Wlad

Wilder beat Ortiz.

Ortiz is an A level fighter.

AJ has fought way better fighters than Wilder you must be joking,
Plus the one A level fighter Wilder fought is 39  (probably older)  and never been a world champion , That was his only ever World title shot,
After Ortiz Wilder fights are a complete Joke,
 Id go as far to say Chisora would be bookies fav against any of the other bums Wilder has fought, Infact Chisora has fought better people than Wilder has,
Wilder has easy the most padded record of the 3 I don't even think its debatable
Fury has even fought better and the guys on his record are nothing to talk about,
Pity Fury didn't get to fight Haye at the time would have been a big scalp for him back then,

yourdeadwright

Is Stiverne the only world champion Wilder has fought ?
Stiverne himself is a joke won a vacant belt and is 6'2 and fat pudden ,
 I don't think Wilder has ever fought anyone who has own a world title fight ?  I think he has fought 2 guys who have won vacant titles ?  I could be wrong but I think  Stiveren and Molina both won vacant titles and  both awful ,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Is Stiverne the only world champion Wilder has fought ?
Stiverne himself is a joke won a vacant belt and is 6'2 and fat pudden ,
 I don't think Wilder has ever fought anyone who has own a world title fight ?  I think he has fought 2 guys who have won vacant titles ?  I could be wrong but I think  Stiveren and Molina both won vacant titles and  both awful ,

But you are missing my point. Apart from Wlad, both AJ and Fury's resumes are hardly stellar.

Anyway, they can ALL only beat what is available today....

Wilder has done that, and the others too. They simply need to beat each other now.

Wlad is finished.....

Wilder was ready to meet Povetkin but Povetkin got busted...

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

AJ has fought way better fighters than Wilder you must be joking,
,

Who exactly is way better? I take it that you believe that AJs opponents are way better? Your sentence above reads like it could be misinterpreted.

AJ beat up a heap of nobodies pre Wlad.....

Ortiz is better than ALL AJs opponents bar Wlad...

Like I said, this is pointless.

Bar the four HWs of AJ/Fury/Wilder/Povetkin, the rest are all not there. And there is an asterisk beside Fury due to his inactivity. How good is he really today?

Of the rest, Ortiz for me is the best.......and Wilder knocked him out...

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

AJ has fought way better fighters than Wilder you must be joking,
,

Who exactly is way better?

AJ beat up a heap of nobodies pre Wlad.....

Ortiz is better than ALL AJs opponents bar Wlad...

Like I said, this is pointless.

Bar the four HWs of AJ/Fury/Wilder/Povetkin, the rest are all not there.

Of the rest, Ortiz for me is te best.......and Wilder knocked him out...

Come one man Wlad is miles better than Ortiz, then Whyte, Parker,|Takam there not steller A class but are all better than anything Wilder has fought but Ortiz,
Wilder  fights are a joke bar Ortiz and some would argue he's about 42, Although I'm a fan of his.,
Wilder has nearly fought the same amounts of fights as Fury and Aj combined and Ortiz is the only half decent guys he has fought,  
Personally for me Wilder record is the most padded of the 3 with nearly twice the fights of Aj and 15 more than Fury ,
Boxing is about opinions and I respect yours but for me Wilder hasn't been in with anyone at all bar Ortiz who we can all agree is good but old and probably even older than he says,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Come one man Wlad is miles better than Ortiz, then Whyte, Parker,|Takam there not steller A class but are all better than anything Wilder has fought but Ortiz,
Wilder  fights are a joke bar Ortiz and some would argue he's about 42, Although I'm a fan of his.,
Wilder has nearly fought the same amounts of fights as Fury and Aj combined and Ortiz is the only half decent guys he has fought,  
Personally for me Wilder record is the most padded of the 3 with nearly twice the fights of Aj and 15 more than Fury ,
Boxing is about opinions and I respect yours but for me Wilder hasn't been in with anyone at all bar Ortiz who we can all agree is good but old and probably even older than he says,

Will you read what I am writing.

I said bar Wlad. I know Wlad is the best of them....

He is finished now.....

Bar Wlad, AJ and Fury have fought nothing as good as Ortiz IMO.

And of their opponents, bar Wlad, who exactly are way better than Wilder's opponents?

Sorry, Chisora and Whyte and Parker are nothing approaching special...they are poor IMO as regards what elites should be, or what good quality HWs should be.

And if we are hanging on these three then it's just sad and pointless.

Let's let it go.....

They need to fight each other. Arguing that this one and that one has beaten a better crop than this one and that one...

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Come one man Wlad is miles better than Ortiz, then Whyte, Parker,|Takam there not steller A class but are all better than anything Wilder has fought but Ortiz,
Wilder  fights are a joke bar Ortiz and some would argue he's about 42, Although I'm a fan of his.,
Wilder has nearly fought the same amounts of fights as Fury and Aj combined and Ortiz is the only half decent guys he has fought,  
Personally for me Wilder record is the most padded of the 3 with nearly twice the fights of Aj and 15 more than Fury ,
Boxing is about opinions and I respect yours but for me Wilder hasn't been in with anyone at all bar Ortiz who we can all agree is good but old and probably even older than he says,

Will you read what I am writing.

I said bar Wlad. I know Wlad is the best of them....

He is finished now.....

Bar Wlad, AJ and Fury have fought nothing as good as Ortiz IMO.

And of their opponents, bar Wlad, who exactly are way better than Wilder's opponents?

Sorry, Chisora and Whyte and Parker are nothing approaching special...they are poor IMO as regards what elites should be, or what good quality HWs should be.

And if we are hanging on these three then it's just sad and pointless.

Let's let it go.....

They need to fight each other. Arguing that this one and that one has beaten a better crop than this one and that one...

I agree with you on the below statement but I think all 3 beat everyone Wilder has fought bar Ortiz , and would be favourites in the fight,
I wouldn't even be surprised if Whyte or Parker beat Ortiz, Hes a better boxer no doubt but at 40 or whatever age he is they might be to young quick and strong,
Anyway your right its all opinion till we see the fights, but its still good to chat about  
"Sorry, Chisora and Whyte and Parker are nothing approaching special...they are poor IMO as regards what elites should be, or what good quality HWs should be."

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I agree with you on the below statement but I think all 3 beat everyone Wilder has fought bar Ortiz , and would be favourites in the fight,

Yes,

And I think Wilder beats all of Fury and AJs opponents, including Wlad.....see....

But Wlad would definitely be a big ask. I think Wilder could get to Wlad's chin. He has that KO chance, and for me that is enough to give him a real shot.

Remember, Wlad really should have gotten AJ out of there...

So, AJ really was "lucky" that Wlad wasn't a real killer

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I agree with you on the below statement but I think all 3 beat everyone Wilder has fought bar Ortiz , and would be favourites in the fight,

Yes,

And I think Wilder beats all of Fury and AJs opponents, including Wlad.....see....

But Wlad would definitely be a big ask. I think Wilder could get to Wlad's chin. He has that KO chance, and for me that is enough to give him a real shot.

Remember, Wlad really should have gotten AJ out of there...

So, AJ really was "lucky" that Wlad wasn't a real killer

Personally I don't think AJ or Wilder beat a prime Wlad but again just opinion's ,

A prime AJ's best win was scrapping past a 40/41 year old kinda tells the state of the heavy weight boxing ,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Personally I don't think AJ or Wilder beat a prime Wlad but again just opinion's ,

A prime AJ's best win was scrapping past a 40/41 year old kinda tells the state of the heavy weight boxing ,

Interesting question?

What is a prime Wlad?

The onE that got knocked out three times by lesser men than AJ?

Wlad has always had a weak chin.......

He adjusted his style when it was exposed. He then went on a winning streak against average (some good, but hardly real talents) type opposition.

AJ would not be average compared to the Wlad opponents post his 3 KO losses.

AJ would still be a big threat. Big, rangy, strong, power, good solid inside game.

Wlad, at "prime" wouldn't be able to as easily to man handle and peck and poke his way to a win vs. AJ, as he would vs. his many other victims.

yourdeadwright

Isn't it pretty obvious ?
Prime Wlad would be in his 11 year winning streak, Wlad fought everyone really available in them 11 years , Not his fault AJ and co came around when he was 40.,
You've said yourself AJ hardest fight was Wlad
At 40 years of age Wlad had AJ hurt big time but didn't have the gas to finish it , its not really a stretch to think at 35 he'd have enough gas to finish it,
Again we will never know but big fights to come and I'm sure AJ will hope beating a 40 yearold Wlad doesn't go down as his biggest win when he's retired,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Isn't it pretty obvious ?

Isn't Wlad's peak pretty obvious?

Is it? If so, when?

Was it for a year, two, three, four.......11?

Was it after he suffered his last KO loss?

The best version of Wlad boxing wise and fluidity wise was actually during his KO loss reign.

Post his KO losses he became much more cautious and careful and spoiling.

This is all a little irrelevant, as anywhere during his career, that chin was weak. And for me, that give the best AJ a good chance to find it and do the job.

yourdeadwright

Your mind set is baffling ,
You think a guy was in his peak when he was getting ko'd  !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because his 11 years undefeated isn't a  period you found exciting mean ZERO,
You do realise the object is to win the fight under the rule set , 
He went undefeated  for 11 years after changing his stylem to suit his strengths and hide his weakness and you don't think that's his prime , 
Funny enough he lost to Aj as he reverted to the style he previous had and was to old to slug it out with  giant young athlete like AJ.

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Your mind set is baffling ,
You think a guy was in his peak when he was getting ko'd  !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your comprehension skills are what's baffling....

Please read what I wrote. I have to say this to you a fair bit when we converse.

Larsso30

Wlad > Ortiz, yesterday, today and tomorrow. forever and always.

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Your mind set is baffling ,
You think a guy was in his peak when he was getting ko'd  !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your comprehension skills are what's baffling....

Please read what I wrote. I have to say this to you a fair bit when we converse.

You asked when was his prime so I'm saying  when he was spoiling and undefeated for 11 years was his prime 

" The best version of Wlad boxing wise and fluidity wise was actually during his KO loss reign." 
I can't see how someone is there best boxing wise when there getting KO'd
To me boxing is about not being hit as much as it is being hit,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

You asked when was his prime so I'm saying  when he was spoiling and undefeated for 11 years was his prime 

" The best version of Wlad boxing wise and fluidity wise was actually during his KO loss reign." 
I can't see how someone is there best boxing wise when there getting KO'd
To me boxing is about not being hit as much as it is being hit,

I never said when his prime was.

I said boxing/fluidity wise his earlier career, which included his losses via KO he was fluidly at his best and his punching mechanics and delivery.....

His prime? Who knows......

Pointless, because what I do know is that during his whole carer, the chin was fragile. He simply learnt to protect it better for many fights...

walshb

Larsso30 wrote: »

Wlad > Ortiz, yesterday, today and tomorrow. forever and always.

Did someone state otherwise?

Sprinter Sacre

I'd throw money at Ortiz to beat the final version of Wlad we saw.

walshb

Sprinter Sacre wrote: »

I'd throw money at Ortiz to beat the final version of Wlad we saw.

I wouldn't.....

He'd only have a puncher's chance, like many others. Wlad would likely keep it at range and beat Ortiz up...

Wlad was still pretty decent in his final fight.

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Also question remains if Fury can't punch why was Wlad scared to open up against him and not AJ ? Serious question'

I was meant to get back here.

Fury and AJ are completely different specimens.

Fury in Germany was moving, feinting dancing and "all over the place." He spooked Wlad a fair bit. Wlad couldn't set himself up to let the shots go like he could vs. AJ, who was there to be hit, and who brought the fight to Wlad, forcing Wlad, as well as allowing Wlad to let the shots go that bit easier. Also, Wlad is a cautious/patient fighter the past x amount of years. He lets go only when he is sure.

Wlad still threw nearly as many in Germany as he did in Wembley...

And for the record. AJ is for me is a far deadlier puncher than Fury...

Sprinter Sacre

walshb wrote: »

I was meant to get back here.

Fury and AJ are completely different specimens.

Fury in Germany was moving, feinting dancing and "all over the place." He spooked Wlad a fair bit. Wlad couldn't set himself up to let the shots go like he could vs. AJ, who was there to be hit, and who brought the fight to Wlad, forcing Wlad, as well as allowing Wlad to let the shots go that bit easier. Also, Wlad is a cautious/patient fighter the past x amount of years. He lets go only when he is sure.

Wlad still threw nearly as many in Germany as he did in Wembley...

And for the record. AJ is for me is a far deadlier puncher than Fury...

I couldn't believe that when I read it but you're right, only threw 30 more or so in the Joshua fight. I'll have to rewatch the Fury fight, I must not be giving him enough credit. In my head I would have felt Wlad barely threw 100 punches.

walshb

Sprinter Sacre wrote: »

I couldn't believe that when I read it but you're right, only threw 30 more or so in the Joshua fight. I'll have to rewatch the Fury fight, I must not be giving him enough credit. In my head I would have felt Wlad barely threw 100 punches.

He was still very poor in Germany.

My point was to explain the differences between throwing and committing vs. one man compared to another man.

Fury offered a lot of movement and angles and feinting etc. Made it more difficult for Wlad to let the hands go compared to when he fought the more In your face/stationary AJ.

Plenty of lull moments in Wembley from Wlad, where he was his usual careful/scared/cautious self. It's actually what cost him the fight. Contrast that to AJ who was more spiteful and fearless on attack.

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Sprinter Sacre wrote: »

I couldn't believe that when I read it but you're right, only threw 30 more or so in the Joshua fight. I'll have to rewatch the Fury fight, I must not be giving him enough credit. In my head I would have felt Wlad barely threw 100 punches.

He was still very poor in Germany.

My point was to explain the differences between throwing and committing vs. one man compared to another man.

Fury offered a lot of movement and angles and feinting etc. Made it more difficult for Wlad to let the hands go compared to when he fought the more In your face/stationary AJ.

Plenty of lull moments in Wembley from Wlad, where he was his usual careful/scared/cautious self. It's actually what cost him the fight. Contrast that to AJ who was more spiteful and fearless on attack.

Would you not think the lull's form Wlad could be because he was 40/41 , at that age you really do have to mange the aul gas tank ,
He can't possible put the foot down as often as AJ ,and expect to out last him,
 I think scared is a really stupid word to use about a world champion , its more knowing his own weakness and knowing his limits, 
Don't get me wrong maybe if he pushed on and put the foot down he would have got the finish but I'd imagine it was his experience telling him not to empty the tank and not because he was scared,

squinn2912

Fury 18 stone 6 is that right? Looks a little trimmer anyhow

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Would you not think the lull's form Wlad could be because he was 40/41 , at that age you really do have to mange the aul gas tank ,
He can't possible put the foot down as often as AJ ,and expect to out last him,
 I think scared is a really stupid word to use about a world champion , its more knowing his own weakness and knowing his limits, 
Don't get me wrong maybe if he pushed on and put the foot down he would have got the finish but I'd imagine it was his experience telling him not to empty the tank and not because he was scared,

Timid a better word?

Like it or not he has fought this way plenty of times. He's only human....

My opinion was that he was fighting his usual timid/overly cautious self at times; afraid to really commit and try to close the show. Some boxers are like this...even when they have their man hurt and ready to go, there is that little bit of fear and timidness that stops them really pushing for the kill....

Then there are others who would walk through fire to get the kill.....

It's juts part of the fight game and part of human nature.