Heavyweight Boxing

squinn2912

walshb wrote: »

The Nal wrote: »

Thats what selling a lot of these fights. Lucas Browne was 25-0 until last week. And hes a total punchbag.

Hearn needs to get AJ vs Wilder on later this year. Both 0 losses. Biggest heavyweight fight in years. Assuming AJ passes the test on Saturday.

Very true. It's a shambles all the postulating and procrastinating that goes on in getting these big fights sorted.

We don't give a fook about Whyte-Wilder or AJ-Whyte II etc etc.....

Make AJ-Wilder before 2019....

I'm with you guys on that but I really don't see it happening. In this age of social media (although TF is giving it up apparently) the postulating is ever-increased. Right now there are 4 HW contenders on 0s. Wilder, Fury, AJ and Parker. In not too long one 0 will go but in not too long after that there'll be Joe Joyce and Daniel Dubois and we'll be speaking about them in similar terms once they rack up double digit wins. Millar is another on an 0 as well come to think of it. 
But lads, weren't big fights always hard to make and painfully drawn out? Look at the age it took Tyson and Lewis to meet. Lewis and Bowe never did. When Wlad ruled I suppose he fought all-comers but it's just that the comers weren't of the same ilk.

yourdeadwright

There's even report Hearn has asked Wilder's camp to stay away on Saturday as he doesn't want Wilder to enter the ring after and have the  fight pushed on AJ ,

The Nal

yourdeadwright wrote: »

There's no way it happens this year,
All week Hearn is pushing Whyte V Wilder,
I think they are till not sure how good Wilder is and hope Whyte gets rid of him cause if AJ loses there cash cow is gone, Not Aj's fault he probably wants the fight,

I know what you mean but AJ is going to get clipped and KO'd by someone at some stage. Hes not that good.

Risking Wilder losing to Whyte is also destroying a cash cow - the AJ vs Wilder fight. An unbeaten US champion vs an unbeaten UK champion is a huge PPV draw on both sides of the Atlantic which hasn't happened since pre Klitschko?

The winner gets Fury. Hes still the lineal champ after all.

squinn2912

Surely if Wilder poses a serious threat to AJ then he should get through Whyte with little fuss. Whyte has one big win over Browne who was in shocking condition to be fighting at the upper end of HW. Other than that there was the debatable win over Chisora who is well below elite of the division and then there was the AJ fight. He got demolished. He could well have been KO'ed in round 1 and was lucky not to be. He got one shot in that stunned AJ but I don't think AJ was in real trouble he just had to weather the storm a bit. 
AJ does leave himself open but I wonder who this someone is that is going to get to him? 
I would also question this fear of Wilder. With over 2 stone advantage in weight he could make very short work of him. I think it would be a toss up despite that point (Wilder will put on weight) but I don't think AJ looks at that fight with any fear whatsoever.

The Nal

squinn2912 wrote: »

Surely if Wilder poses a serious threat to AJ then he should get through Whyte with little fuss. Whyte has one big win over Browne who was in shocking condition to be fighting at the upper end of HW. Other than that there was the debatable win over Chisora who is well below elite of the division and then there was the AJ fight. He got demolished. He could well have been KO'ed in round 1 and was lucky not to be. He got one shot in that stunned AJ but I don't think AJ was in real trouble he just had to weather the storm a bit. 
AJ does leave himself open but I wonder who this someone is that is going to get to him? 
I would also question this fear of Wilder. With over 2 stone advantage in weight he could make very short work of him. I think it would be a toss up despite that point (Wilder will put on weight) but I don't think AJ looks at that fight with any fear whatsoever.

Wilder has one of the most unique and sloppy fighting styles I've ever seen. Its madness. I think he would be destroyed by though AJ yeah. But Whyte could beat him too. A decent pro with a solid form and stance. Theres the AJ payday for all out the window. Including a rematch maybe if its close or a flash KO.

squinn2912

I don't know about AJ destroying him. I appreciate AJ's achievements but I'm by no means his greatest fan! Wilder would need to weigh at least 16 stone. I think Wilder would KO Whyte. Whyte has done nothing and looked good once as far as I can see against a lad who began boxing at about 30 and came in with no condition, skill or speed. He couldn't but KO him. I think Fury, AJ and Wilder are hard to separate as long as Wilder has the weight. I think the rest are a long way back. On a given day I think they could all win against one another too but I don't see another HW who could compare right now. Not until we've seen more from one or two younger charges.

walshb

Wilder looks all this and that (in a "bad" way) , but he is a hard man to beat......

Simple: He keeps winning and keeps knocking opponents out. Every one of them he knocked out...

Folks keep wanting him to trip up and keep telling us how "poor" hes is blah blah blah.....

Bottom line is that he is yet to lose and yet to be exposed......when he wants he can be neat and tidy......most times he does't have to be because he is clearly superior via his firepower and size...

squinn2912

walshb wrote: »

Wilder looks all this and that, but he is a hard man to beat......

Simple: He keeps winning and keeps knocking opponents out. Every one of them he knocked out...

Folks keep wanting him to trip up and keep telling us how "poor" hes is blah blah blah.....

Bottom line is that he is yet to lose and yet to be exposed......when he wants he can be neat and tidy......most times he does't have to be because he is clearly superior via his firepower and size...

Yep I agree with all of that. He looks untidy usually when his opponent is about to eat canvas. He has a decent jab and serious power

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

Wilder looks all this and that (in a "bad" way) , but he is a hard man to beat......

Simple: He keeps winning and keeps knocking opponents out. Every one of them he knocked out...

Folks keep wanting him to trip up and keep telling us how "poor" hes is blah blah blah.....

Bottom line is that he is yet to lose and yet to be exposed......when he wants he can be neat and tidy......most times he does't have to be because he is clearly superior via his firepower and size...

Hmmm, he was exposed vs Ortiz. The fight was very nearly stopped a couple of rounds before he knocked him out. He had help after that round from a weird doctor check too which got him an extra 20 seconds or so. Good chin though.

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

Hmmm, he was exposed vs Ortiz. The fight was very nearly stopped a couple of rounds before he knocked him out. He had help after that round from a weird doctor check too which got him an extra 20 seconds or so. Good chin though.

Exposed for what, exactly?

He won the fight and was ahead on all cards.....

Ortiz is quite a good fighter, and hyped up as such. Could we not argue that he was the one more exposed, seeing as he lost the fight via KO....

If we go by your reasoning, then every fighter gets exposed at one point or another, whether it's during a winning or losing fight...

BTW, there was no weird doctor check. That was within the rules and procedures. Nothing suspicious or illegal here.

ThunderCat

The Nal wrote: »

Hmmm, he was exposed vs Ortiz. The fight was very nearly stopped a couple of rounds before he knocked him out. He had help after that round from a weird doctor check too which got him an extra 20 seconds or so. Good chin though.

I was at it. The crowd which were mostly cheering for Wilder were very concerned.

walshb

And another thing. I don't automatically call a fighter "exposed" due to this or that....

Was Muhammad Ali exposed through his career?

Holyfield?

SRL?

SRR?

Hagler?

Lennox Lewis?

Well, yes they were if we want to look hard enough and apply unrealistic criteria on them for said losses...

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

Good chin though.

I disagree here. I would say that the chin was possibly "exposed" more than shown to be good or solid. Had Ortiz landed harder, or been a better follower upper, then Wilder may have been carted off.....

I would be quite confident that if AJ can get to the chin clean he will KO Wilder with one shot or a series of good shots...

Oh, same applies for Wilder. If Wilder gets to AJs chin he will knock AJ out.

I do not have confidence in either man's chin to the degree that sees me thinking they take each others clean shots

AJs chin is probably more sturdy...

normanoffside

yourdeadwright wrote: »

There's even report Hearn has asked Wilder's camp to stay away on Saturday as he doesn't want Wilder to enter the ring after and have the  fight pushed on AJ ,

Yes I read that Wilder was supposed to be working with Sky Sports for the fight but he is now not travelling as Hearn won't let him get in the ring to call out AJ (if he wins)

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

Exposed for what, exactly?

He won the fight and was ahead on all cards.....

Ortiz is quite a good fighter, and hyped up as such. Could we not argue that he was the one more exposed, seeing as he lost the fight via KO....

If we go by your reasoning, then every fighter gets exposed at one point or another, whether it's during a winning or losing fight...

BTW, there was no weird doctor check. That was within the rules and procedures. Nothing suspicious or illegal here.

I think were into semantics now. I mean exposed as in the fight would've been stopped if the big punch landed 30 seconds earlier in the round. He was saved by the bell.

Ortiz is ok yeah but hardly a world beater. Wilder was 1 point ahead on the cards, hardly a landslide either.

Regardless, the big money fight is AJ vs Wilder with the winner to fight Fury. Just cant see past AJ being nearly 3 stone heavier than Wilder.

Its nice to have a couple of decent heavyweight fights to talk about.

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

I think were into semantics now. I mean exposed as in the fight would've been stopped if the big punch landed 30 seconds earlier in the round. He was saved by the bell.

Ortiz is ok yeah but hardly a world beater. Wilder was 1 point ahead on the cards, hardly a landslide either.

Regardless, the big money fight is AJ vs Wilder with the winner to fight Fury. Just cant see past AJ being nearly 3 stone heavier than Wilder.

Its nice to have a couple of decent heavyweight fights to talk about.

Fair enough. I suppose I was more "defending" the way we articulate a fighter being exposed. Any fighter at any time during any era can be exposed.

You mention how he could have been knocked out, that being him being exposed. I agree here, as regards chin "exposure," the point I made in one of my subsequent posts. Again, that can be said/wondered of any fighter ever.

MD1990

walshb wrote: »

I disagree here. I would say that the chin was possibly "exposed" more than shown to be good or solid. Had Ortiz landed harder, or been a better follower upper, then Wilder may have been carted off.....

I would be quite confident that if AJ can get to the chin clean he will KO Wilder with one shot or a series of good shots...

Oh, same applies for Wilder. If Wilder gets to AJs chin he will knock AJ out.

I do not have confidence in either man's chin to the degree that sees me thinking they take each others clean shots

AJs chin is probably more sturdy...

Wilder has more power than Joshua.

Would favour Joshua but hard fight to call as Wilder has slightly better chin.

walshb

MD1990 wrote: »

Wilder has more power than Joshua.

Would favour Joshua but hard fight to call as Wilder has slightly better chin.

I think AJ, but really, can't know for certain. Neither strikes me as grade A, although they could surprise us...

An incident here and there or a fight here and there doesn't always tell us how good a chin really is....best to wait for a few more fights and incidents...Look at Clay/Ali as a prime example. Need to look at his career as a whole to give a verdict. He gets a grade A for me.

On the flip side we have Khan. I don't care what he does in the future. His chin is not near grade A. Too many incidents and too much a pattern for me to think otherwise.

I agree on the power comparison.

Henno30

Hard to even say what sort of fight AJ-Wilder would be. Wilder fought very cautiously against Ortiz bar the odd occasion when his inner windmill took over.

yourdeadwright

People don't give Ortiz enough credit, he was very tricky v Wilder , Wilder fought cautious because of Ortiz's skill set, He had trouble with the southpaw stance, I think every judge had Wilder just one round up in a fight,
Iv said for a long time Ortiz is a fight Aj would never take (well Hearn)  because so much to lose and little to gain , he's a real tricky fight for anyone ,

nacho libre

yourdeadwright wrote: »

People don't give Ortiz enough credit, he was very tricky v Wilder , Wilder fought cautious because of Ortiz's skill set, He had trouble with the southpaw stance, I think every judge had Wilder just one round up in a fight,
Iv said for a long time Ortiz is a fight Aj would never take (well Hearn)  because so much to lose and little to gain , he's a real tricky fight for anyone ,

Yes Ortiz does not get enough credit for that fight. Had he been a few years younger, the outcome might have been different. Also it seemed Wilder got extra time to recover courtesy of a ringside doctor. Wilder proved me wrong in that fight by showing he has a decent Chin, because Ortiz hits quite hard himself. If Stiverne was deserving of a rematch, then surely Ortiz is.

As regards Joshua, i think Hearn wants to preserve his cash cow as long as possible. That's probably why he wants to pit Whye against Wilder next.
He wants to maximise the revenue before he risks Joshua losing.

squinn2912

Didn’t stiverne getbthst fight because Povetkin failedvthr drugs test? Ortiz won’t get a rematch I don’t really see the benefit to wilder unless a late pull out.
If Joshua can earn huge revenue fighting lesser opponents then for all the clamoring about wanting wilder they will take the easier options

squinn2912

Has anyone seen the price interview? He’s a little less defeated looking and looking much trimmer. When he and POV stood toe to toe he’s a huge guy

walshb

Parker a kind of flabby 236

AJ a ripped 242...

As I expected...low 240s

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Parker a kind of flabby 236

AJ a ripped 242...

As I expected...low 240s

Jesus I wouldn't have called parker flabby , He just doesn't look like a bodybuilder,
Very very harsh on of Samoan decent,

Morrison J

Parker will never have the bodybuilder physique, that's just genetics. He's come in light which was very important. Really think this is a fight that goes rounds.

walshb

Not flabby per se, just a little “I don’t know,” soft?

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Really think this is a fight that goes rounds.

Yes...5-6

yourdeadwright

How in goods name does AJ carry so much muscle while training so hard for cardio based sport,
He is in unreal shape, I cant ever recall any heavy weight in the same condition ,
Wlad was always in great shape but never had as much muscle mass,
Aj puts most body builders to shame

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Not flabby per se, just a little “I don’t know,” soft?

I get what your saying, he's not ripped like not many heavy weights  are probably only AJ, Wlad and Wilder in recent time

thierry14

yourdeadwright wrote: »

How in goods name does AJ carry so much muscle while training so hard for cardio based sport,
He is in unreal shape, I cant ever recall any heavy weight in the same condition ,
Wlad was always in great shape but never had as much muscle mass,
Aj puts most body builders to shame

Holyfield, Tyson, Bruno era had all amazing physiques

Not 2 metres tall like AJ and Wlad either

yourdeadwright

thierry14 wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

How in goods name does AJ carry so much muscle while training so hard for cardio based sport,
He is in unreal shape, I cant ever recall any heavy weight in the same condition ,
Wlad was always in great shape but never had as much muscle mass,
Aj puts most body builders to shame

Holyfield, Tyson, Bruno era had all amazing physiques

Not 2 metres tall like AJ and Wlad either

Ye all great condition but they didn't carry weight like AJ
Holyfield was really a cruiser weight his average fight weight at heavy weight was 16 stone and  6'2 ,

Mike didn't look a thing like AJ he was stocky and thick not ripped his body fat would have been much higher than AJ's  and was amere 5'11

I'll give you Bruno he was a big guy and in fantastic condition , closest thing to AJ but still lighter than AJ and shorter,

squinn2912

Does having the ripped body help? I think of Ali, Lewis, Liston, foreman. None of those were that muscular but all very effective and the former two excellent movers

yourdeadwright

squinn2912 wrote: »

Does having the ripped body help? I think of Ali, Lewis, Liston, foreman. None of those were that muscular but all very effective and the former two excellent movers

No I wouldn't think so make him a bit robotic and then there is the gas issues,  
I just find it amazing that he can keep in that shape while training for boxing and at that weight,

walshb

Price being written off isn’t washing with me...

Ok, he has shown his vulnerabilities, but he, as such a big, and bigger man than AP can quite possibly land a KO blow within the first 5/6 rds if he is still there...

thebull85

http://www.boxingnewsonline.net/the-truth-about-david-price-and-alexander-povetkins-drug-testing/

No testing for this fight. RIP Pricey.

squinn2912

walshb wrote: »

Price being written off isn’t washing with me...

Ok, he has shown his vulnerabilities, but he, as such a big, and bigger man than AP can quite possibly land a KO blow within the first 5/6 rds if he is still there...

I agree with this point. He should go in and make this a dirty, untidy fight. Lean on pov grind him with head and elbows and keep his head away. By now I hope someone has taught him to lead with the jab and not the uppercut. He has a good chance

squinn2912

thebull85 wrote: »

http://www.boxingnewsonline.net/the-truth-about-david-price-and-alexander-povetkins-drug-testing/

No testing for this fight. RIP Pricey.

I will read this later but I think you’ve chosen your words poorly here. Pov if he has any sense will be clean for this fight

normanoffside

Povetkin didn't look any where close to his shape in his 'juiced up' fights. 224lbs and pretty fleshy looking at the weighin (ass opposed to 232lbs and ripped)

squinn2912

I think this is a real opportunity to get to him. If he’s not on juice, he’s 38, hasn’t fought great opposition of late and thinks price is a pushover. Those are big factors. Price has played down his chances and status but if that’s a mind game that works then it’s a master stroke. Maybe I’m willing him on too much

Morrison J

Price has absolutely zero chance lads. Saying he has a punchers chance is all well and good but he can't pull the trigger anymore. Be shocked if it goes more than four.

Visconti

Morrison J wrote: »

Price has absolutely zero chance lads. Saying he has a punchers chance is all well and good but he can't pull the trigger anymore. Be shocked if it goes more than four.

Hope your wrong.

Mantis Toboggan

If price does get ko'd hopefully he'll hang up the gloves before he gets badly hurt.

StringerBell

Thought both men looked great at the weigh in, Parker is 9lbs lighter than his last fight and looks as good as I've ever seen him. Really looking forward to it now

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Price has absolutely zero chance lads. Saying he has a punchers chance is all well and good but he can't pull the trigger anymore. Be shocked if it goes more than four.

But only needs to pull the trigger once and land heavy once...

There is a chance..

Hardly gets in there and throws no good committed and deliberate punches?

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

But only needs to pull the trigger once and land heavy once...

There is a chance..

Hardly gets in there and throws no good committed and deliberate punches?

You can trot out that arguement in any heavyweight fight though it doesn't make this one any less of a mismatch.

Povetkin went 12 rounds with Wlad Klitschko taking some big shots in the process. There is zero evidence he won't be able to take Price's shots even if Price does fight committed for the first time in years.

Morrison J

Tyson Fury wrote: »

If price does get ko'd hopefully he'll hang up the gloves before he gets badly hurt.

Hang up the gloves or at least go back to where he should be at domestic level. This is a gross mismatch tomorrow, nothing less. He's completely out of his depth.

squinn2912

Morrison J wrote: »

walshb wrote: »

But only needs to pull the trigger once and land heavy once...

There is a chance..

Hardly gets in there and throws no good committed and deliberate punches?

You can trot out that arguement in any heavyweight fight though it doesn't make this one any less of a mismatch.

Povetkin went 12 rounds with Wlad Klitschko taking some big shots in the process. There is zero evidence he won't be able to take Price's shots even if Price does fight committed for the first time in years.

How long ago? He hasn’t fought outside of Russia in 6 years and has been on helpers. He also went 12 rounds with Hammar against whom price threw away the fight.
He’s meeting a better price physically at least and price is meeting a long at it, fleshy version of Povetkin.
Look I agree he’s the underdog but this is still a massive chance for him

walshb

squinn2912 wrote: »

Does having the ripped body help? I think of Ali, Lewis, Liston, foreman. None of those were that muscular but all very effective and the former two excellent movers

I don’t think you can definitely say it helps or hinders.

AJ is all genetics. Even if he was not a pro boxer he’d be looking the part...

Of course, being a dedicated pro athlete means he will likely look even more the more part, more defined and ripped, but the building blocks are already in place...

He is what he is, and I have a strong feeling that how he looks as he does isn’t that difficult for him to achieve...

Prime Ali was ripped enough by the way...

70s Foreman was a hulk, and Kenny Norton was some specimen.

It’s all individual. Some of the greats looked great (Holyfield) and some didn’t (Larry Holmes)

walshb

Bit off topic but if any of you have an hour or two to spare get and watch Facing Ali, a 2009 doc. Really interesting, with a lot of info and clips even Ali fans (like myself) wouldn’t have seen/known...