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Heavyweight Boxing

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  • walshb wrote: »

    Beating him on the cards untouched  or winning a 50/50 slug fest after being dropped and barley surviving ,
    Your being swayed by the name and not looking at the actual performance ,

    Why don't you start a poll? It seems that it's quite annoying to you to think that someone could be more impressed with AJs win over Wlad compared to Fury's win over Wlad.
    Discussion is good but it annoys me when people make **** up , Saying AJ out boxed Wlad is beyond nonsense
    It's the kinda stuff you hear from the expert's on Sky who have vested interest in AJ over any other heavy weight,
    Call fights as they where not as you wished they where, AJ won in a toss up 50/50 fight where he was in serious trouble against a 40 yearold who handn't fought in 2 years and was previously beaten with ease in his last fight,  That's all just call it as it is ,




  • Discussion is good but it annoys me when people make **** up , Saying AJ out boxed Wlad is beyond nonsense
    It's the kinda stuff you hear from the expert's on Sky who have vested interest in AJ over any other heavy weight,
    Call fights as they where not as you wished they where, AJ won in a toss up 50/50 fight where he was in serious trouble against a 40 yearold who handn't fought in 2 years and was previously beaten with ease in his last fight,  That's all just call it as it is ,

    So, did Wlad outbox AJ, or was it even? Who out-boxed who?

    You're taking it a bit too seriously. Nobody is saying AJ out-boxed Wlad in any dominant type fashion. It was a very closely fought fight that I felt AJ was edging. He was "just" out-boxing Wlad.




  • Ah lads! It was a very close fight, Wlad had the winning of it and didn't go for it then AJ survived and got the stoppage with his second wind. Fury fight was so different it's very hard to compare. Suggesting a poll will serve only to attract the opinions of people who appreciate nothing other than a ko and think Tyson (mike) was the best ever boxer. There's much more to it than that.
    Furys victory is so impressive because Wlad looked untouchable prior to then. That and age take some of the gloss of AJ and his achievement because it was more expected.
    Thankfully boxing is moving on and we should all too. Let it go and let's look forward to the bouts coming up.
    You both are making valid points and both obviously know your stuff.




  • walshb wrote: »
    So, did Wlad outbox AJ, or was it even? Who out-boxed who?

    You're taking it a bit too seriously. Nobody is saying AJ out-boxed Wlad in any dominant type fashion. It was a very closely fought fight that I felt AJ was edging. He was "just" out-boxing Wlad.

    The decade of youth AJ had on him closed the distance ,
    AJ won a razor.close folight due to his power,speed and tank which his youth gave him , the stats back it up Wlad boxing was techically far better
    It was Wlad better boxing skills that mafe it a close fight , I never said Wlad outboxed him , You said Aj outboxed Wlad which is just not true at all ,
    So if u think AJ just outboxed him are you saying the ten years made no dofference that night ? AJ won by physical means not by outboxing him ,

    Again orginaly argument stands Fury is the only one who outboxed Wlad and did so with ease

    Anyway thats my opinion your entitled to yours of course




  • Yes. AJ for me out-boxed him. Very close. No issue with anyone saying Wlad out-boxed AJ very closely...

    The whole “disagreement” centered on your refusal to even entertain the idea that someone could think that AJ out-boxed Wlad. I think that is off the mark.


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  • pac_man wrote: »
    AJ didn't outbox Wlad. Wlad didn't outbox AJ. Likewise, Fury didn't school Wlad.

    No issue there, but if you had to call it as one out-boxing the other, and I mean in the closest possible sense....I gave the edge to AJ. Cleaner and harder boxing work...

    Similar to Groves out-boxing DeGale. Razor close, but just a little better...

    I don’t mean the term out-boxing to mean anything resembling clear in the above examples..

    But I know when some read the term they automatically think clear and dominant...




  • Plenty examples of boxers out-boxing their opponents yet a judge or judges having them behind...subjective nature, and sometimes poor judging nature of the sport.

    Just making that kind of separate point...




  • pac_man wrote: »
    That's not applicable to this fight. There was nothing between Joshua and Wlad before the stoppage. One didn't outbox the other. To outbox someone shows a level of dominance and control throughout the fight. Both were hurt, maybe a swing round or two, so we can't say one was more in control than the other for the majority of the fight.

    The Degale and Groves is a fight that could have went either way. Your interpretation of someone outboxing someone is odd.

    Well,

    I clearly explained my position...you failed to grasp it...

    I am well aware that the term out-boxing implies clarity and clearness...

    You either missed my clear point on that or deliberately decided to ignore it..

    I was more meaning out-boxing in the closest of senses...AJ just for me.

    Wlad for others...

    I also made the out-boxing point in my post above as a separate point. I said this..

    Out-boxing in pro boxing can be a very subjective term, depending on the judge..

    You don’t have to be pasting someone to be out-boxing them. And people can have opposing views on who is out-boxing who, even in razor close fights.




  • pac_man wrote: »
    You don't outbox someone when your behind on one of the judges scorecards. It was nip and tuck, nothing really between them before Joshua finished him.

    this is what iv been saying and stats show Wlad had cleaner work ,

    only part id argue with u is that i do think Fury outboxed Wlad , totally out smarted him




  • pac_man wrote: »
    The two fights you referenced is when the judges were not in agreement as to who was winning the fight. As you said, your aware that the term out-boxing implies clarity and clearness. So if judges disagree with each other than it's ambiguous and lacks clearness. Therefore you couldn't possibly say that one of was outboxing the other as it's not universal.

    I'm well aware of not needing to be pasting someone to be out-boxing them. Your mate Floyd was the king at that.

    Again this is on the money , the term outbox implies the other guy isnt on your level that night , You dont have to paste Flyod is the perfect exampld
    Seems as the argument has progressed you have softned your stance but instead of saying that you where wrong ur trying to imoly outbox means sometjing it doesnt ,
    In no possible sense of the word did AJ outbox Wlad , he out fought him sure but didnt outbox him


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  • I said right from the start that the term out-boxing implies clarity and clearness, but it’s not always the case in such a subjective sport...you can out-box without it being glaringly obvious/clear. Subtle out-boxing can occur. That’s where a good understanding of the sport comes in.

    Plenty fights see different people score and interpret them differently.

    Plenty universally accepted closely fought fights can have differing views on who won, or who was more controlling, more precise, more clean etc etc...

    This is simple stuff. Not sure why it even needs to be explained.

    I have no issue with any of the following..

    1: AJ outboxed Wlad in a very closely fought fight. Just out-boxed him.

    2: Wlad outboxed AJ in a very closely fought fight. Just out-boxed him

    3:Neither out-boxed the other. They were pretty even as regards it...

    But don’t tell me you can’t have/think/believe any of these scenarios, particularly 1 and 2. That shows a lack of understanding of the sport.




  • pac_man wrote: »
    As you said, your aware that the term out-boxing implies clarity and clearness. So if judges disagree with each other than it's ambiguous and lacks clearness.

    I have to address this. It’s just not true..

    Two glaring examples for me..

    Sweet Pea Whitaker out-boxed JCC. It was not ambiguous. It was clear...but not to all the judges.

    Meldrick Taylor out-boxed JCC. It was not ambiguous. It was clear. One judge had JCC ahead at the end of the 11th...

    There are so many more examples... where one boxer is clearly out-boxing the other yet not all the judges think this...

    This post is nothing to do with AJ and Wlad. It’s just addressing your point..




  • this is all going around in circles for 10 pages. Will we just leave it at that and discuss Wilder-Ortiz and Joshua-Parker?

    I thought the mention earlier of all the protection of fighters 0's was very interesting. Has there ever been so many unbeaten, well ranked HWs? The 4 above + Miller, Fury and others?




  • Well Fury and AJ meeting Wlad was risking their 0s as far as risking goes...

    One punch HWs are kind of always risking their 0s, as well as their lives!




  • walshb wrote: »
    Well Fury and AJ meeting Wlad was risking their 0s as far as risking goes...

    One punch HWs are kind of always risking their 0s, as well as their lives!

    Needs to happen more often for the good of the sport
    I think Hearn is espically careful who he matches AJ aginst but there all at it , If Wlad have had stoped od even beat Fury there was no way Hearn was letting AJ fight him , Hes very clever with his timing ,
    How much better would it be if all the top heaveys where just fighting other top ranked heavy weights each time out , At least we get Wilder v Ortiz and AJ v Parker its going in the right direction




  • You can’t know what Hearn and AJ would have done had Wlad stopped Fury (which many expected), and likely Hearn too..

    AJ meets another HW champion soon, and I’d expect him and Wilder to be made by end of the year.

    The rest of the HWs have generated no interest, unless we count Fury’s social media nonsense.




  • walshb wrote: »
    You can’t know what Hearn and AJ would have done had Wlad stopped Fury (which many expected), and likely Hearn too..

    AJ meets another HW champion soon, and I’d expect him and Wilder to be made by end of the year.

    The rest of the HWs have generated no interest, unless we count Fury’s social media nonsense.
    Can't be 100)% sure but its Hearn all over  
    Hearn himself stated AJ was no where near a shot  and not interested in world titles October 2015 (Wlad has the belts ) , Fury beats Wlad in November and vacats the IBF belt and all of a sudden Hearn is matching AJ up for an IBF title fight for April , (Martin worst champion in living memory had it )
    Again Hearn would not risk AJ zero in a live fight, im not bashing Hearn or Aj  here
    Its just another example that fighters do there best to avoid good fights, it the times we live in , No one wants tuff fights at heavy weight but hopefully this year changes that




  • Can't be 100)% sure but its Hearn all over  
    Hearn himself stated AJ was no where near a shot  and not interested in world titles October 2015 (Wlad has the belts ) , Fury beats Wlad in November and vacats the IBF belt and all of a sudden Hearn is matching AJ up for an IBF title fight for April , (Martin worst champion in living memory had it )
    Again Hearn would not risk AJ zero in a live fight, im not bashing Hearn or Aj  here
    Its just another example that fighters do there best to avoid good fights, it the times we live in , No one wants tuff fights at heavy weight but hopefully this year changes that

    Looking at the ratings AJ has taken some risks......who do you think he's been fighting? You may not rate them, but they are rated, and they pose and posed risks...

    Outside of Wilder, which will happen, he has taken risks.....

    Wlad was a risk. Whyte was a risk, considering he bested AJ in the amateurs.

    Who else? Povetkin was off cheating and being banned...

    Ortiz similar....

    Pulev pulled out of the AJ fight

    Parker he meets next...

    It comes across that you have an axe to grind with AJ and Hearn...




  • Can't be 100)% sure but its Hearn all over
    Hearn himself stated AJ was no where near a shot and not interested in world titles October 2015 (Wlad has the belts ) , Fury beats Wlad in November and vacats the IBF belt and all of a sudden Hearn is matching AJ up for an IBF title fight for April , (Martin worst champion in living memory had it )
    Again Hearn would not risk AJ zero in a live fight, im not bashing Hearn or Aj here
    Its just another example that fighters do there best to avoid good fights, it the times we live in , No one wants tuff fights at heavy weight but hopefully this year changes that

    You seem to be putting a more negative spin on this than I took from it. Hearn said AJ needed more experience before fighting for titles. Due to circumstances outside of his control, a title ended up in the hands of someone no one in their right mind would call an elite fighter. Because of that, they skipped ahead of schedule and won a title, while continuing to build the quality of opponent. In terms of who AJ has fought, I think the progression was what they always had in mind, they just took advantage of an unexpected opportunity to win a title, build his profile and bank balance. I don't really see what to criticise about that myself.




  • Can't be 100)% sure but its Hearn all over  
    Hearn himself stated AJ was no where near a shot  and not interested in world titles October 2015 (Wlad has the belts ) , Fury beats Wlad in November and vacats the IBF belt and all of a sudden Hearn is matching AJ up for an IBF title fight for April , (Martin worst champion in living memory had it )
    Again Hearn would not risk AJ zero in a live fight, im not bashing Hearn or Aj  here
    Its just another example that fighters do there best to avoid good fights, it the times we live in , No one wants tuff fights at heavy weight but hopefully this year changes that

    You seem to be putting a more negative spin on this than I took from it. Hearn said AJ needed more experience before fighting for titles. Due to circumstances outside of his control, a title ended up in the hands of someone no one in their right mind would call an elite fighter. Because of that, they skipped ahead of schedule and won a title, while continuing to build the quality of opponent. In terms of who AJ has fought, I think the progression was what they always had in mind, they just took advantage of an unexpected opportunity to win a title, build his profile and bank balance. I don't really see what to criticise about that myself.
    That's my point actually exactly
    I'm saying if Wlad had of beat Fury ,AJ would not have fought him next,
    We only got the AJ v Wlad fight because Wlad lost and was 2 years removed form the ring, Hearn had been very careful building his brand, and still is,
    After he fought Whyte in a tuff fight , his calibre of opponent went down instead of up until he fought a 41 year old Wlad who had been out for 2 years,
    There's no negative spin its just the times we live in ,fighter's are protected a lot more,
    Now with the belts hopefully all his fights are against top heavy weights , so we as fans can see who is truly the best out there,


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  • We only got the AJ v Wlad fight because Wlad lost and was 2 years removed form the ring,

    Im not sure that's the case. Would it have happened in early 2016, regardless of other results? No, they wanted to get AJ more experience.

    He got some of that by fighting Martin, Brezeale and Molina. IMO the Klitschko fight in 2017 was probably their planned timeline all along, I don't think Fury winning or Klitschko being out of action had anything to do with it. We're all just guessing though!




  • The circumstances leading to AJ fighting Klitchko do raise an eyebrow. I think there's some accurate and interesting points made in this thread; but in the end of the day the boxing business has a cloak and daggers moral fabric and I'm not sure anything will ever change that. What does grind my gears is people who hold Fury up as the victim here. Yes, Joshua gained from Furys' victory and downfall but Tysons' hand in this also needs to be observed.

    It's an awful pity that Fury let himself go as much as he did. The version of Tyson Fury on that night in Germany, would beat that Joshua from Wembley - I have no doubt. For a few reasons, I'm finding it very hard to believe Fury ever gets back to that version of himself (both physically and psychologically). I'm not a Joshua fan. I don't like the hype behind him, the strategic manoeuvring in fight selections, the BS extortionate deal with Studhub, the absolute nonsense talk from Hearn and also the way some people are putting him up there with the Heavyweight greats! Do I see him losing anytime soon though? Not a chance!




  • pac_man wrote: »
    RezwoK wrote: »
    The circumstances leading to AJ fighting Klitchko do raise an eyebrow. I think there's some accurate and interesting points made in this thread; but in the end of the day the boxing business has a cloak and daggers moral fabric and I'm not sure anything will ever change that. What does grind my gears is people who hold Fury up as the victim here. Yes, Joshua gained from Furys' victory and downfall but Tysons' hand in this also needs to be observed.

    It's an awful pity that Fury let himself go as much as he did. The version of Tyson Fury on that night in Germany, would beat that Joshua from Wembley - I have no doubt. For a few reasons, I'm finding it very hard to believe Fury ever gets back to that version of himself (both physically and psychologically). I'm not a Joshua fan. I don't like the hype behind him, the strategic manoeuvring in fight selections, the BS extortionate  deal with Studhub, the absolute nonsense talk from Hearn and also the way some people are putting him up there with the Heavyweight greats! Do I see him losing anytime soon though? Not a chance!

    The other stuff I get but what strategic maneuvering has Joshua done that you don't like. For someone that is 20-0, the level and progression of his opponents to date, is something that is hard to fault.
    Would you not say his opponents got worse after the Whyte fight ?
    Only a 41 yearold Wlad would be better ,
    Its not a knock on AJ  more to do with the Division and its issues a 20 -0 World champions toughest fight on paper was against a 41 year old two years out of the ring who was beaten in his last fight, Would that happened in any other weight class ?




  • Would you not say his opponents got worse after the Whyte fight ?

    I personally think Whyte is bang average, so maybe not worse or better.....

    Whyte was not tope ten ranked by Ring when AJ faced him.

    One could argue either way on them....




  • My point he's is bang average and hasn't really improved but yet in all four major sanctioning bodies and Ring magazine  ,he's is the highest ranked of any opponent AJ has faced,

    My bad I think Breazeale (Whyte would murder him ) is ahead of him in the WBO but still you get the idea.




  • My point he's is bang average and hasn't really improved but yet in all four major sanctioning bodies and Ring magazine  ,he's is the highest ranked of any opponent AJ has faced,

    My bad I think Breazeale (Whyte would murder him ) is ahead of him in the WBO but still you get the idea.

    But outside of Wilder, and Parker, who I am not sold on, the rest are all on the same level....

    AJ meets Parker next and Wilder meets Ortiz. I am not sold on Ortiz either. Plus he is a drugs cheat.

    Fury is a non entity. He is not fighting and not active....




  • walshb wrote: »
    My point he's is bang average and hasn't really improved but yet in all four major sanctioning bodies and Ring magazine  ,he's is the highest ranked of any opponent AJ has faced,

    My bad I think Breazeale (Whyte would murder him ) is ahead of him in the WBO but still you get the idea.

    But outside of Wilder, and Parker, who I am not sold on, the rest are all on the same level....

    AJ meets Parker next and Wilder meets Ortiz. I am not sold on Ortiz either. Plus he is a drugs cheat.

    Fury is a non entity. He is not fighting and not active....
    Wilder,Ortiz, Parker, Fury, Povetkin , all give AJ some kind of problems,
    Id even throw Briggs in there,
    Daniel Dubois and a few other will be up there in the next 2-3 years
    Off on a tangent  but wasn't there stories that Dubios dropped AJ in sparing 18 months back he was only 18 ,




  • Wilder,Ortiz, Parker, Fury, Povetkin , all give AJ some kind of problems,
    Id even throw Briggs in there,
    Daniel Dubois and a few other will be up there in the next 2-3 years
    Off on a tangent  but wasn't there stories that Dubios dropped AJ in sparing 18 months back he was only 18 ,

    Yes, and he will likely face Wilder later this year all going well with their next defenses. He fights Parker next. I said this...

    Other than Wilder I see no huge threats. Povetkin will get decapitated. He's past it, old and a cheat! Wlad battered a more prime Povetkin several years ago. No way AJ lets Povetkin survive.

    Let's see how Ortiz gets on when flat on his back after the Wilder KO loss...

    Briggs? Come on!

    Fury is not to be considered.....he is still inactive and yet to even have a comeback fight.

    You don't like AJ, eh?




  • Again I just wana see the top guys fight each other


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  • I don't follow anyone fighter, I watch boxing for good fights and to see fighters skills, I'm not a fan of a fighter like a football team,I can't understand boxing fan boys who defend a fighter no mater what , Im a grown man I watch 2 guys I don't know personayl fight and enjoy the skill set, makes no difference to me who wins or loses it makes little difference to me, (unless iv made a bet)

    Just on the Povetkin point, Your correct that was several years ago and Wlad was not a 41 yearold who was out for 2 years, That version of Wlad would have done the same to AJ

    Briggs ok he could be god awful but people are afraid to take the fight incase he has one big one left in him ,No fighter seems to want to chance it ,

    I think Ortiz give Wilder problems,we shall see


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