Saudi woman arrested for wearing skirt

Shurimgreat

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Those 2012 pictures are a made in America and Saudi Arabia co-production. Dodgy cold war era policies ruined those 2 countries especially Afghanistan. Iran has some sensible people in its current government and let's hope the hardliners and their American pals don't scupper any progress made.

Iran in the 1970s was run by the American aligned Shah. The Americans overthrew the Taliban, so credit where credit is due. Sounds like some people would love to see the Taliban make a come back if only to stick it to Uncle Sam.

Eventually, sooner or later, these countries revert back to hardline Islamic theocracies run by men for the benefit of men and with limited rights for women.

And at some stage the people of the middle east need to take responsibility for their own actions. You give them freedom and they either opt for a hardline Islamic regime or a hardline secular dictatorship. They have zero interest in a modern liberal democracy. Ultimately they bring the majority of their problems on themselves.

Shurimgreat

ScumLord wrote: »

If people like her priest, or her parents/husband didn't like the fact she was wearing sluty clothes she could be made disappear into Catholic workhouses, no police or day in court needed.


I'm just sick of hearing all this Muslims are backwards, can't change, won't change, they hate us, they want to take over the world and make us all do sharia law. It's pointless antagonistic behaviour from us. I know their countries have backwards religious governments, but we can't judge them by our own standards when it took us centuries to end up with the civilization we have now. We had to force people not to be racist/sexist/homophobic through laws, we didn't just decide to be as we are today, it took a lot of hard work, it took a lot of dedication from a minority to change the way we behave and we then turn around and expect everyone to just ape us while they're still stuck in underdeveloped communities, because we're the best.

And all that bile is still there under the surface ready to come back out at the slightest provocation. The only reason some people in the west aren't as backwards as Islamic countries is because they would get charged and jailed for it.

There's nothing civilised about condemning an entire region of disparate people, there are probably as many different opinions in that part of the world as here and we're doing nothing to help the non extremists, we're just fanning the flames with our actions. Most Muslims, like every other human being on the planet are probably fairly tolerant and just want to raise their families. That's all normal people want to do. It's the people in charge that abuse their power to manipulate the people.

You think a woman arrested for wearing a skirt is progressive?

The whataboutery is seriously not helping your cause. It comes across as if you are trying to justify the Saudi actions, even if that's probably not what you mean. You seem to be saying "it happened here, so who are we to preach, and therefore we shouldn't preach and therefore its ok for the Saudis to do as they please."

Next you will be blaming me for all the workhouses and launderies in Ireland.

end of the road

Shurimgreat wrote: »

You think a woman arrested for wearing a skirt is progressive?

The whataboutery is seriously not helping your cause. It comes across as if you are trying to justify the Saudi actions, even if that's probably not what you mean. You seem to be saying "it happened here, so who are we to preach, and therefore we shouldn't preach and therefore its ok for the Saudis to do as they please."

Next you will be blaming me for all the workhouses and launderies in Ireland.

you are making stuff up now. there is a huge difference between what you said and what ScumLord said. and you know it. you are twisting something to mean something completely different, that it couldn't actually mean.

ScumLord

Shurimgreat wrote: »

You think a woman arrested for wearing a skirt is progressive?

How did you end up thinking that from what I said?

The whataboutery is seriously not helping your cause. It comes across as if you are trying to justify the Saudi actions, even if that's probably not what you mean. You seem to be saying "it happened here, so who are we to preach, and therefore we shouldn't preach and therefore its ok for the Saudis to do as they please."

You should just take what I say at face value rather than trying to twist into some sort of pro Islam narrative. I'm anti religion in general. What I'm saying is we should have some appreciation for what they're going through. We suffered through similar religious oppression. Rather than villainize them we should be looking for ways to help them out from under the thumb of power mongering religious zealots. The arab people aren't the problem, their programing is.

Yourself isit

ScumLord wrote: »

something we've only started doing ourselves.

Aren't plenty of these extremists being produced in the west? Aren't the extremists making use of technology and social media to attract more extremists?

Islamic extremists didn't spontaneously pop into existence. They're a direct result of western countries stealing resources and corrupting local governments in the favour of the west. They didn't come to the west, the west went to them and tried to westernise them.

All I see in anti islamic talk is more antagonization, putting all the blame on the enemy and ignoring any part the west has played in bringing about the current situation. As it keeps being pointed out, these are backwards people, often living in small villages, in mud huts without running water, and somehow they're the dangerous ones, not the modern military force that could wipe every human being off the face of the planet within hours? The west went to them and put them on the world stage, the only reason they remain a threat is because the west remains in that area antagonizing them.

None of this has anything to do with Saudi Arabia's treatment of this woman.

Shurimgreat

Yourself isit wrote: »

None of this has anything to do with Saudi Arabia's treatment of this woman.

That's it in one. We might be bad in Ireland but we have made huge progress in the last 50 years in all kinds of areas, particularly human rights, womens right and minority rights.

SA has made next to no progress. And the focus really should be on them to make that progress.

Its not even a question of one religion vs another. Its a question of a state that does not respect the rights of its own citizens to do as they please. As I said we have made huge progress in Ireland. SA has made none. They are still firmly stuck in the dark ages.

Yourself isit

end of the road wrote: »

you are making stuff up now. there is a huge difference between what you said and what ScumLord said. and you know it. you are twisting something to mean something completely different, that it couldn't actually mean.

He's throwing whataboutary all over the shop. We used to do this. The crusades. The inquisition. Even western involvement in bombing secular states on the behalf of the saudis - all cause the saudis to oppress women.

ScumLord

Yourself isit wrote: »

He's throwing whataboutary all over the shop. We used to do this. The crusades. The inquisition. Even western involvement in bombing secular states on the behalf of the saudis - all cause the saudis to oppress women.

Again you're bringing up stuff I never even mentioned.

You're just fixated on using the word whataboutery and are ignoring the points made.

Yourself isit

ScumLord wrote: »

Again you're bringing up stuff I never even mentioned.

You're just fixated on using the word whataboutery and are ignoring the points made.

What did I make up? It's a summary of your posts.

ScumLord

Yourself isit wrote: »

What did I make up? It's a summary of your posts.

Quote a post where I said any of these things.

He's throwing whataboutary all over the shop. We used to do this. The crusades. The inquisition. Even western involvement in bombing secular states on the behalf of the saudis - all cause the saudis to oppress women.

Yourself isit

ScumLord wrote: »

Quote a post where I said any of these things.

Why here's one.

Islamic extremists didn't spontaneously pop into existence. They're a direct result of western countries stealing resources and corrupting local governments in the favour of the west. They didn't come to the west, the west went to them and tried to westernise them.

The rest of your whataboutary is related to Ireland rather than the crusades. But I did say that tongue in cheek.

You also said.

people in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones

Which means that Ireland - or the west - is as bad as Saudi Arabia now.

What we are not getting is a condemnation of the Saudi regime.

Shurimgreat

You can use whataboutery to prove any argument

"Sure Stalin purged millions but who are we to talk, we treated people badly in industrial homes, therefore we are no-one to preach so what Stalin did is kind of excusable. We were just as bad afterall."

You can take two separate cases, jumble them up and eventually people think they are linked, when they aren't.

I'd love to see a ban on whataboutery on Boards.ie.

BalcombeSt4

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Iran in the 1970s was run by the American aligned Shah. The Americans overthrew the Taliban, so credit where credit is due. Sounds like some people would love to see the Taliban make a come back if only to stick it to Uncle Sam.

Eventually, sooner or later, these countries revert back to hardline Islamic theocracies run by men for the benefit of men and with limited rights for women.

And at some stage the people of the middle east need to take responsibility for their own actions. You give them freedom and they either opt for a hardline Islamic regime or a hardline secular dictatorship. They have zero interest in a modern liberal democracy. Ultimately they bring the majority of their problems on themselves.

And also armed them, trained them and helped them gain power only so they could stick to the Soviet Union who was trying to drive them out .

Grayson

Shurimgreat wrote: »

You think a woman arrested for wearing a skirt is progressive?

The whataboutery is seriously not helping your cause. It comes across as if you are trying to justify the Saudi actions, even if that's probably not what you mean. You seem to be saying "it happened here, so who are we to preach, and therefore we shouldn't preach and therefore its ok for the Saudis to do as they please."

Next you will be blaming me for all the workhouses and launderies in Ireland.

Bet you're against people like her fleeing her country and living in a progressive country.

Grayson

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Its not even a question of one religion vs another. Its a question of a state that does not respect the rights of its own citizens to do as they please. As I said we have made huge progress in Ireland. SA has made none. They are still firmly stuck in the dark ages.

You won't find a person here who disagrees with that. Saudi is a hell hole. And I firmly believe that the mountain region in Afghanistan/Pakistan will be one of the last places in the world to be civilised.

That doesn't mean though that muslims = bad. People flee these places. People flee the Taliban and Isis too. And they're all muslims. That's why I don't have a problem with Muslims in general. Just the assholes that use religion as an excuse to oppress. And I feel the same about anyone who uses any religion or political ideology to do the same.

Elmer Blooker

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

And also armed them, trained them and helped them gain power only so they could stick to the Soviet Union who was trying to drive them out .

True. These Islamist fundamentalists were Reagan's and Thatcher's "freedom fighters" when they fought the Soviets in the 80s.
Skip a generation and head chopping fundamentalists in Syria are now called "rebels" "moderates" "opposition forces" etc.
The message: The west doesn't care who does their dirty work.

BuilderPlumber

Grayson wrote: »

You won't find a person here who disagrees with that. Saudi is a hell hole. And I firmly believe that the mountain region in Afghanistan/Pakistan will be one of the last places in the world to be civilised.

That doesn't mean though that muslims = bad. People flee these places. People flee the Taliban and Isis too. And they're all muslims. That's why I don't have a problem with Muslims in general. Just the assholes that use religion as an excuse to oppress. And I feel the same about anyone who uses any religion or political ideology to do the same.

Saudi Arabia is a hellhole that has respect for its own citizens. Those that use and abuse Islam or any religion to oppress, murder and terrorise people are evil and Saudi Arabia tops the list here.

Other oppressive Middle Eastern countries and entities including the Taliban, al Qaeda and ISIS have the excuse of war. Countries like Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan will moderate over time as they leave war and violence behind but Saudi Arabia will stay the same. By right, Saudi Arabia should be a version of Spain with oil but instead it is one of the most oppressive regimes on earth.

BuilderPlumber

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

True. These Islamist fundamentalists were Reagan's and Thatcher's "freedom fighters" when they fought the Soviets in the 80s.
Skip a generation and head chopping fundamentalists in Syria are now called "rebels" "moderates" "opposition forces" etc.
The message: The west doesn't care who does their dirty work.

True. These 1970s and 1980s efforts created the nightmares we have today. 1979 was one of the darkest years of the cold war and saw a lot of great countries slide into the abyss. Any country that happened to border the Soviet Union that was not China, a communist European nation or was not Norway and Finland were rife for the West to create trouble in or allow trouble to happen in. Of course there were only 2 such countries: Iran and Afghanistan. So-called 'Islamic revolution' and 'holy war', phrases coined then to describe events in those 2 countries, was encouraged by the West and even Rambo went to help them out in 1988. Ironically, Rambo 3 which celebrated all things Taliban, was filmed not in Afghanistan but in one of the Taliban's main enemies, Israel.

Though the West later became the target of 'Islamic revolution' and 'holy war', these movements were tolerated. The West knew fanaticism existed in these movements and but they also knew such movements with Saudi backing and money could penetrated deep into greater Iran/Persia and the ethnic Persian and Turkic Soviet Republics that once were part of the Persian empire. If 'Islamic Revolution' and 'holy war' could spread, the Southern USSR could uprise against their communist governments. The USSR did collapse soon after but thankfully, Taliban type regimes did not take hold after the fall of communism unlike in Afghanistan.