Saudi woman arrested for wearing skirt

buried

Ahhhhh Saudi Arabia. The gift that keeps on cutting peoples heads off for walking down the street a wrong way.
I thought Donald Duck was going to sort all this $$$hit out.
May as well wait for Mickey F**king Mou$e to do it.

Capt'n Midnight

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh christ, not this cultural equivalence the Irish must forever wear sackcloth ballsology again... I'm sorry Capt'n, No they are that far behind us.

I could quote what happened during WWII or during the wars in Yugoslavia

just me being pedantic about the 1,000 years


The big problem there is women aren't equal. A rich man can have more than one wife. This means there is a surplus of single men and women are jealously guarded as assets rather than equal partners.

Same effect seen in other areas and stages of history., look at the old Mormons in the US or the breakaway sects today. Look at China in the past. Even amongst the richest individual children didn't get the same cars as in single woman marriages, going by the simple statistic of death rates, competition amongst wives didn't help.

The scarcity of women and the promise of them for the men who join is one of the factors that is driving ISIS and Boko Haram like warm moist air fuels a hurricane.

Shurimgreat

Anyone else tired of hearing the phrase "its a cultural thing, people in the west wouldn't understand".

It seems to be a way to excuse all kinds of oppressive activities particularly against women and minorities in less developed countries.

Its time for some of these countries to join at least the 20th century. The 21st might be a leap too far.

seachto7

Let them do what they want in Saudi and keep putting the squeeze on them to change. They don't obviously agree with "western" ways of thinking on some things.
But keep that kind of carry on out of western societies. Gloves off about it too.

BuilderPlumber

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Anyone else tired of hearing the phrase "its a cultural thing, people in the west wouldn't understand".

It seems to be a way to excuse all kinds of oppressive activities particularly against women and minorities in less developed countries.

Its time for some of these countries to join at least the 20th century. The 21st might be a leap too far.

+1. There is nothing 'cultural' about vile murderous fascist regimes like Saudi Arabia. In fact, a lot of Arab and Middle Eastern culture would go 100% against what Saudi Arabia and other oppressive tyrants want to force on the people. Belly dancing is a very obvious tradition and culture from that region that the fascists would not approve of. Arab, Persian, Turkish and other Middle Eastern cultures are rich and diverse and have nothing to do with the Saudi Arabian and Saudi Arabian inspired negative fanatics who have ruined Middle Eastern culture and the Middle East in general with the blessing of the world's powers.

smurfjed

But local media recently reported that King Salman has issued an order allowing women to benefit from government services such as education and healthcare without the consent of a male guardian.

This means women could, in some circumstances, study and access hospital treatment, work in the public and private sector and represent themselves in court without a guardian’s consent, according to Maha Akeel, a women’s rights campaigner and a director at the Jeddah-based Organization of Islamic Cooperation.

Things are changing..... SLOWLY

BalcombeSt4

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Joke of a country.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/07/18/a-video-of-a-woman-in-a-skirt-sparks-outrage-in-saudi-arabia/?hpid=hp_hp-cards_hp-card-world%3Ahomepage%2Fcard&utm_term=.c70060b09cae

The sooner the west stops buying oil from and supporting this regime the better. They make stone age men look enlightened.

Why would they stop supporting them if they make money of them & the Saudis carry out their dirty work for them in the Middle East.

Have you not figured out yet the "west" doesn't give two hoots about human rights and have actively collaborated with some of the worst regimes in history for their own ends? Then just throw in some nice sounding rhetoric to make our leaders sound like benevolent men and that so far has fooled most of the people most of the time unfortunately .

BuilderPlumber

smurfjed wrote: »

But local media recently reported that King Salman has issued an order allowing women to benefit from government services such as education and healthcare without the consent of a male guardian.

Things are changing..... SLOWLY

Yes and I am sure there are a lot people in countries like Saudi Arabia who want to see their country progress and not be held back by fascist repression. Recent years have seen more bloodshed on European cities than ever before and it is a wakeup call that this emanates out of Saudi Arabia. Sadly, it takes death and destruction in the West for fascist Middle Eastern terrorists and regimes to be taken seriously (what they have been doing to their own populations for years has had blind eyes turned to sadly).

ScumLord

Wibbs wrote: »

In Good oul Catholic Ireland did women not have the vote? Could women walk abroad without male company? Could women hold passports, driving licences? Could women own land? Could women choose their husbands? Did we have public beheadings on Ayre Square? Did we have indentured slaves? No, we bloody well didn't and that's only a short list. To this idea? Get off the stage.

To be fair, while those laws may have been in place it took society a while to actually accept them. A state that allows priests to rape their own children shows religion has power over people that goes beyond laws in a book.

While it's nowhere near the violence of Islam, Catholics are great at shame and that creates deep psychological issues not just in individuals but the population as a whole. While a woman could wear a miniskirt she'd get **** for it on a daily basis with some men thinking she was a harlot open to their advances, and if those men ever acted on it our society was one that would cover it up rather than deal with it.

We were no saints, we used a different type of intimidation developed out of our own cultures. I'd be a catholic before I'd be a Muslim, but in reality I want nothing to do with either of them.

BalcombeSt4

DaniilKharms wrote: »

BREAKING NEWS!!!!!! Horrible country does something horrible.

Seriously, this is the biggest state sponsor of terror on the planet; why would ANYONE put ANYTHING past these violent dictators?

Wouldn't put anything past t them but its to highlight the hypocrisy of the West (US, UK & Israel in particular) of supporting takfiri fundamentalism in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan in the 80's and attacking the more secular Arab nationalism regimes and organizations like Iran, Iraq, Libya, PLO and Hezbollah.

Wibbs

ScumLord wrote: »

A state that allows priests to rape their own children

What? If you're suggesting that was Ireland you've gone completely off the deep end of hysterical nonsense.

While a woman could wear a miniskirt she'd get **** for it on a daily basis with some men thinking she was a harlot open to their advances, and if those men ever acted on it our society was one that would cover it up rather than deal with it.

Maybe you should ask women who lived in the 60's in the towns and cities and get their actual experiences, because your old Ireland is more a hyped up fantasyland than reality. It really is.

BalcombeSt4

Like a ex Mossad Director went on Al Jazzera and said injured ISIS & Al Queda "guerrillas" are treated in Israeli hospitals near the Golan Heights to be humane but said they wouldn't help injured Hezbollah & Hamas "terrorists" and would shoot them instead of helping them.

BuilderPlumber

ScumLord wrote: »

To be fair, while those laws may have been in place it took society a while to actually accept them. A state that allows priests to rape their own children shows religion has power over people that goes beyond laws in a book.

While it's nowhere near the violence of Islam, Catholics are great at shame and that creates deep psychological issues not just in individuals but the population as a whole. While a woman could wear a miniskirt she'd get **** for it on a daily basis with some men thinking she was a harlot open to their advances, and if those men ever acted on it our society was one that would cover it up rather than deal with it.

We were no saints, we used a different type of intimidation developed out of our own cultures. I'd be a catholic before I'd be a Muslim, but in reality I want nothing to do with either of them.

The Catholic church practically invented religious fascism before that term was even invented. The medieval Catholic church burned women at the stake, had warmongering popes who lead armies into battle, had popes who passed the papacy onto their sons, executed people who did not agree the world was flat, colonised much of the world and ruled with an iron fist.

We tend to forget with all the Brit-bashing the Catholic countries' oppression in the imperial era. Spain in South America and Belgian Catholic Leopold II in the Congo for example. To be fair, religion was only partially their motive. But was used as a tool much like ISIS do.

It can also be argued that Hitler was Catholic albeit a lapsed one and medieval Catholic brutality and power influenced him. His own ideology became his religion but still he and his regime held extremely sectarian policies and Catholics and Protestants faired way better than Jews obviously. Hitler's pal Mussolini was more a genuine Catholic and had good relations with the Pope and gave him the Vatican's status as an independent entity. Hitler clearly saw the benefit of having his friend Mussolini being a friend of the Pope. Great Propaganda.

Current religious fascism in Islam is no different to its former Christian version or current Christian fanatics like the LRA in Central Africa. The fact that the LRA are peculiar to just one area make them ignored compared to Islamic terrorists who target all parts of the world. Plus the LRA don't have a rich sponsor like Islamic extremism has.

The Catholic church has had to reform and still is far from perfect. Islam needs to reform too and needs to be taken out of the hands of bad people who have had too much of an influence on it in recent times. Islam had become a largely apolitical religion until relatively recently but conflicts like the Lebanese war, Iranian revolution, the Iran Iraq war, the American Iraq wars, the Afghan wars, the Arab spring, the ISIS wars and so on have all given fuel to an ever more confident and brutal political Islam. Christianity needed reform, now it is the turn for Islam to do the same.

ScumLord

Wibbs wrote: »

What? If you're suggesting that was Ireland you've gone completely off the deep end of hysterical nonsense.

What do you mean? Preists raped children in Ireland, the state knew about it and did nothing, it protected them.

Maybe you should ask women who lived in the 60's in the towns and cities and get their actual experiences, because your old Ireland is more a hyped up fantasyland than reality. It really is.

I don't really need to ask women in the 60s I can still see the tail end of it today in old Catholics, I grew up in a town where the priest was treated like a lord and beatings were handed out like good advice, girls had to cover up and were expected to get married and have children. Growing your hair long and listening to heavy metal as a boy meant you were under the influence of the devil. Maybe my town was particularly backwards? But it seemed pretty similar in other towns too.

BalcombeSt4

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

We tend to forget with all the Brit-bashing the Catholic countries' oppression in the imperial era. Spain in South America and Belgian Catholic Leopold II in the Congo for example. To be fair, religion was only partially their motive. But was used as a tool much like ISIS do.



.

Don't forget Franco in Spain was fiercely Catholic and persecuted any left-wingers who challenged it's power.

It also collaborated with the fascist regimes in South & Central America from the 1950's - 1990's to suppress left-wing opposition, usually with the backing of the US also.

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

It can also be argued that Hitler was Catholic albeit a lapsed one and medieval Catholic brutality and power influenced him. His own ideology became his religion but still he and his regime held extremely sectarian policies and Catholics and Protestants faired way better than Jews obviously. Hitler's pal Mussolini was more a genuine Catholic and had good relations with the Pope and gave him the Vatican's status as an independent entity. Hitler clearly saw the benefit of having his friend Mussolini being a friend of the Pope. Great Propaganda.

Don't really agree with this, to de-Christianize Germany was a big goal of the Third Reich. Political Catholicism was a target during the Night of the Long Knifes purge in 1934. The Nazi's shut down the Catholic press, schools, political parties and youth groups in Germany and also sent over 2,000 Catholic clergy to Dachau.

It's safe to say Hitler was no Catholic and so the Catholic church as threat to his own power.

BuilderPlumber

ScumLord wrote: »

What do you mean? Preists raped children in Ireland, the state knew about it and did nothing, it protected them.

I don't really need to ask women in the 60s I can still see the tail end of it today in old Catholics, I grew up in a town where the priest was treated like a lord and beatings were handed out like good advice, girls had to cover up and were expected to get married and have children. Growing your hair long and listening to heavy metal as a boy meant you were under the influence of the devil. Maybe my town was particularly backwards? But it seemed pretty similar in other towns too.

You can see the influence of a lot of this legacy in Ireland to this day. You can see it across the various aspects of our society. Here are 2 examples:

Music: what you said about heavy metal is true. The music in Ireland that gets media support today is 99% tame unintelligent pop and modern country music drivel of the world kind. Why is this all that is promoted? Because it is tame does to require people to think.
Drama: Most Irish drama is restrained and tame. The one time we did go for a good and untame drama, there were all sorts of complaints made about it and the media just went back to making tame, uninteresting dramas again. I have a pet cat but can put in context how I treat my cat and seeing a cat shot in the only good drama we made that still should be made. By the way, the cat was not really killed!

The whole thing is so-called morality has not gone away. Once it was the church who decided what we should do, now it is the media who force their agendas onto us. Thankfully, we can think for ourselves here and I reject oppressive Catholic dogma or being force fed bad modern country music alike. I would hate to live in a country that legally enforced one to live by another's preferences. Saudi Arabia is clearly that.

BuilderPlumber

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Don't forget Franco in Spain was fiercely Catholic and persecuted any left-wingers who challenged it's power.

It also collaborated with the fascist regimes in South & Central America from the 1950's - 1990's to suppress left-wing opposition, usually with the backing of the US also.

Don't really agree with this, to de-Christianize Germany was a big goal of the Third Reich. Political Catholicism was a target during the Night of the Long Knifes purge in 1934. The Nazi's shut down the Catholic press, schools, political parties and youth groups in Germany and also sent over 2,000 Catholic clergy to Dachau.

It's safe to say Hitler was no Catholic and so the Catholic church as threat to his own power.

Franco of course was staunchly Catholic and the South American dictators were usually that as well. Left-wing/communist threats were more or less justified as targets officially by the church.

I am well aware of Hitler's views and the regime's actions. He was born a Catholic but his movement superseded that of any religion and became his religion. However, his aim was to kill all Jewish Germans and turn Christian Germans away from Christianity and towards his own cult instead. Of course, Hitler admired how medieval Catholics and also the Roman Empire controlled and consolidated what they gained. He also learned from his rival and enemy Stalin and took note of how he used a personality cult and elimination of enemies to gain ultimate power in the USSR.

The other thing I find is the sectarian prejudices of Hitler and Stalin. One was born a Catholic and the other Orthodox but both became heads of atheist nationalist regimes. Yet their hatred for Jews in particular was massive and this clearly was a form of sectarianism and the atheist views of Hitler and Stalin seemed to accomodate hatred of religious minorities different to a Christian identity. That was probably programmed into their backgrounds and was transplanted as part of their new atheist states.

The_Kew_Tour

of the top 10 greatest Murders in the history, many were non religious.

Venom

ScumLord wrote: »

What do you mean? Preists raped children in Ireland, the state knew about it and did nothing, it protected them.

I don't really need to ask women in the 60s I can still see the tail end of it today in old Catholics, I grew up in a town where the priest was treated like a lord and beatings were handed out like good advice, girls had to cover up and were expected to get married and have children. Growing your hair long and listening to heavy metal as a boy meant you were under the influence of the devil. Maybe my town was particularly backwards? But it seemed pretty similar in other towns too.

No one is saying Ireland didn't have problems caused by religious nutjobs ....





buts its not remotely close to the same level that's been talked about in this thread regarding issues in the middle east.

ScumLord

Venom wrote: »

buts its not remotely close to the same level that's been talked about in this thread regarding issues in the middle east.

It's different. You've shown there that Muslim countries have gone the opposite way from Christian countries, we've become lapse and they've doubled down.

We had institutionalised abuse of women and children. Sanctioned at the highest levels of government and applauded by the people. That's as bad as anything done anywhere else and it's within living memory.

Mutant z

A sh1thole of a country, shows exactly the evil which is islam, a medieval poisonous death cult, which has no place in a civilised society.

Shurimgreat

Lads and Ladies, can we limit the whataboutery with regards Ireland?

We're talking about the middle east and the need for that region to move with the times and not be permanently stuck in a first millennia mindset.

You can understand how an extremist mindset is created in countries like Saudi Arabia. Men are used to getting their way and of course will be reluctant to see minority groups have any power.

Yourself isit

ScumLord wrote: »

To be fair, while those laws may have been in place it took society a while to actually accept them. A state that allows priests to rape their own children shows religion has power over people that goes beyond laws in a book.

While it's nowhere near the violence of Islam, Catholics are great at shame and that creates deep psychological issues not just in individuals but the population as a whole. While a woman could wear a miniskirt she'd get **** for it on a daily basis with some men thinking she was a harlot open to their advances, and if those men ever acted on it our society was one that would cover it up rather than deal with it.

We were no saints, we used a different type of intimidation developed out of our own cultures. I'd be a catholic before I'd be a Muslim, but in reality I want nothing to do with either of them.

What's this got to do with the thread?

ScumLord

Shurimgreat wrote: »

We're talking about the middle east and the need for that region to move with the times and not be permanently stuck in a first millennia mindset.

something we've only started doing ourselves.

You can understand how an extremist mindset is created in countries like Saudi Arabia. Men are used to getting their way and of course will be reluctant to see minority groups have any power.

Aren't plenty of these extremists being produced in the west? Aren't the extremists making use of technology and social media to attract more extremists?

Islamic extremists didn't spontaneously pop into existence. They're a direct result of western countries stealing resources and corrupting local governments in the favour of the west. They didn't come to the west, the west went to them and tried to westernise them.

All I see in anti islamic talk is more antagonization, putting all the blame on the enemy and ignoring any part the west has played in bringing about the current situation. As it keeps being pointed out, these are backwards people, often living in small villages, in mud huts without running water, and somehow they're the dangerous ones, not the modern military force that could wipe every human being off the face of the planet within hours? The west went to them and put them on the world stage, the only reason they remain a threat is because the west remains in that area antagonizing them.

ScumLord

Yourself isit wrote: »

What's this got to do with the thread?

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Wibbs

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

The Catholic church practically invented religious fascism before that term was even invented.

Most religions that far back were the same.

The medieval Catholic church burned women at the stake,

Actually that's more post reformation propaganda. 1) being tried in a Church court was much more likely to end in an acquittal compared to the civil/royal courts. Much of the common law of Europe sprang from church courts, which were originally influenced by Roman law 3) the various Protestant faiths executed far more witches and heretics. For theocratic reasons too. The main difference being that the Catholic mindset viewed sinners as capable of redemption and that was their job to try to achieve this. To lose a soul to the stake was seen as a failure. The Protestant view was more about predestination, a sinner was a sinner and it was more kill them and let God sort it out.

had warmongering popes who lead armies into battle,

Yep, though not commonly. Fun fact; every single crusade was in response to Islamic expansion. In the parlance of the schoolyard; they started it.

had popes who passed the papacy onto their sons,

Yep.

executed people who did not agree the world was flat,

Nope. Utter nonsense. That the world was a globe was an established fact among thinkers and church thinkers with it. In fact Copernicus was a catholic cleric and his heliocentric theories were supported by the church and his first book was dedicated to the pope of the time. Galileo was dragged before the court, but wasn't executed, but kept under house arrest(and was more about obedience to the church rather than a scientific issue).

colonised much of the world and ruled with an iron fist.

Well the various European powers did with the churches blessing of course. And so did the Protestant powers.

Shurimgreat

Again with the whataboutery.

Can anyone tell me the last time an Irish woman was arrested and brought in for questioning for wearing a skirt in public?

No whataboutery, just a simple answer will do.

Bad and all as Catholic Ireland is or was, they never arrested anyone for wearing a skirt in public to my knowledge.

I expect a response along the lines of "yeh but what about Tuam babies, laundries, etc etc"

If so, maybe this thread has run its course.

Shurimgreat

ScumLord wrote: »

something we've only started doing ourselves.

Aren't plenty of these extremists being produced in the west? Aren't the extremists making use of technology and social media to attract more extremists?

Islamic extremists didn't spontaneously pop into existence. They're a direct result of western countries stealing resources and corrupting local governments in the favour of the west. They didn't come to the west, the west went to them and tried to westernise them.

All I see in anti islamic talk is more antagonization, putting all the blame on the enemy and ignoring any part the west has played in bringing about the current situation. As it keeps being pointed out, these are backwards people, often living in small villages, in mud huts without running water, and somehow they're the dangerous ones, not the modern military force that could wipe every human being off the face of the planet within hours? The west went to them and put them on the world stage, the only reason they remain a threat is because the west remains in that area antagonizing them.

You are right many are created in the west. In western mosques funded by Saudi money, and preachers also funded by Saudi money. They believe we are all infidels in the west, non believers, decadent, immoral and so on. A woman who doesn't wear a full burqua is a disgrace and a womans place is in the home. You cannot separate extremism from extreme views of the role of women. You only have to look at how ISIS treated women in Raqqa, forcing them all to cover up.

Western values and Islamic values are completely at odds. In fact liberal values and Islamic values are completely at odds. When you bring people up with extreme views of the world and the place of religion in it, its hardly surprising when they eventually become extremists.

Its the same for all religions by the way.

But again this thread is/was about Saudi Arabia. Thankfully they freed the woman in question due in my opinion to an international outcry such as we had with this thread. So they are slowly moving with the times which is a good thing.

BuilderPlumber

Venom wrote: »

No one is saying Ireland didn't have problems caused by religious nutjobs ....





buts its not remotely close to the same level that's been talked about in this thread regarding issues in the middle east.

Those 2012 pictures are a made in America and Saudi Arabia co-production. Dodgy cold war era policies ruined those 2 countries especially Afghanistan. Iran has some sensible people in its current government and let's hope the hardliners and their American pals don't scupper any progress made.

ScumLord

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Again with the whataboutery.

Can anyone tell me the last time an Irish woman was arrested and brought in for questioning for wearing a skirt in public?

No whataboutery, just a simple answer will do.

If people like her priest, or her parents/husband didn't like the fact she was wearing sluty clothes she could be made disappear into Catholic workhouses, no police or day in court needed.


I'm just sick of hearing all this Muslims are backwards, can't change, won't change, they hate us, they want to take over the world and make us all do sharia law. It's pointless antagonistic behaviour from us. I know their countries have backwards religious governments, but we can't judge them by our own standards when it took us centuries to end up with the civilization we have now. We had to force people not to be racist/sexist/homophobic through laws, we didn't just decide to be as we are today, it took a lot of hard work, it took a lot of dedication from a minority to change the way we behave and we then turn around and expect everyone to just ape us while they're still stuck in underdeveloped communities, because we're the best.

And all that bile is still there under the surface ready to come back out at the slightest provocation. The only reason some people in the west aren't as backwards as Islamic countries is because they would get charged and jailed for it.

There's nothing civilised about condemning an entire region of disparate people, there are probably as many different opinions in that part of the world as here and we're doing nothing to help the non extremists, we're just fanning the flames with our actions. Most Muslims, like every other human being on the planet are probably fairly tolerant and just want to raise their families. That's all normal people want to do. It's the people in charge that abuse their power to manipulate the people.