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Tailgating and Undertaking on Motorways
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There have been numerous photos and video clips of people driving in an otherwise empty Lane 1, while Lane 2 is full and Lane 3 is not much lighter.
I do, yes. As I said earlier, N7 inbound in the evenings at weekends is notorious for it. Lane 2 going at or, usually under the limit, which means I would actually have to slow down to join it, and lane 3 full of tailgating, and usually speeding, idiots continually tapping their brakes for no apparent reason. I'll take my chances undertaking in lane 1, thanks.Do you ever really see traffic heavy in lane 2 and lane 3 and lane 1 is empty?
Agree the N7 is the worst but bits of the M50 can be bad too.0 -
So under what scenarios is it not safe to proceed in lane 1 then?
Because it seems like right now the stance is
"You can only pass in lane 1, if you need to pass in lane 1 or its just easier"
for me personally I only ever undertake if there's no other option.. but I can imagine that if there's a person in lane 2 going slow being overtaken by a queue of 0.0001km/h overtakers in lane 3, that you'd have to either slow down in lane 1 swap to lane 2, wait ages in all of their blind spots to join that queue and to then yourself do a 5 minute overtake of the lane 2 car.. I'd just undertake the lot of them from lane 1, seems safer to be in one persons blind spot than the whole queue of overtakers. But it's really only an option if you can't get into lane 3 and just overtake normally.
But really none of this applies to me since I'm on a motorbike 1) I rarely use motorways and 2) cars get out of my way pretty much instantly if I move into the overtaking lane behind them. Loud + high headlights = very annoying for someone who likes to sit in their little bubble in the overtaking lane for their whole journey
I'm not a fan of undertaking at all, I'm as good a driver as you could want anyone to be and I've very nearly changed lanes on top of someone, while I was driving a car, who was undertaking me (by very nearly I mean I shoulder checked and saw them entering a motorway exit just as the lines opened up for that exit.. and the ****ed up bit about that is as undertaking goes that one is almost 'legal' since they intended to turn left! (except so did I.. and they drove on the hard shoulder before the lane opened up..)
and while rarely driving in Dublin, multiple times I've overtaken someone in lane 1 and then when I want to move back into lane 1, there will be someone accelerating up beside me in lane 1 and I have to then brake, allow them to undertake me and then move back in. No doubt at one of those people has then boasted online about not having to leave lane 1 for their whole journey for all of the middle lane hoggers (aka me trying to not ****ing kill everyone)..0 -
I do, yes. As I said earlier, N7 inbound in the evenings at weekends is notorious for it. Lane 2 going at or, usually under the limit, which means I would actually have to slow down to join it, and lane 3 full of tailgating, and usually speeding, idiots continually tapping their brakes for no apparent reason. I'll take my chances undertaking in lane 1, thanks.
So in this scenario, while in lane 1 you pass a bunch of cars in lane 2 becuase you "couldnt" get into lane 3 to pass the correctly...you then catch up with cars in lane 1...what do you do now?
If lane 2/3 were too busy earlier to overtake correctly, are they suddenly OK now because you have no other option?
And if its ok to pass in lane 1, why are the Garda pulling people for doing it (as evidenced by posters in this thread and links to other threads)0 -
I do, yes. As I said earlier, N7 inbound in the evenings at weekends is notorious for it. Lane 2 going at or, usually under the limit, which means I would actually have to slow down to join it, and lane 3 full of tailgating, and usually speeding, idiots continually tapping their brakes for no apparent reason. I'll take my chances undertaking in lane 1, thanks.
And if its ok to pass in lane 1, why are the Garda pulling people for doing it (as evidenced by posters in this thread and links to other threads)
Nope, you still don't get it.
Its not a black/white, OK/not OK choice. Overtaking on the right is the preferred option but there are times when it isn't the safest thing to do.
Gardai are correct to pull people for overtaking on the left when it isn't warranted by the situation. They are also correct to recognise when it is the best option - as can be seen from the reply they gave to the question posed earlier in the thread.0 -
Nope, you still don't get it.
Its not a black/white, OK/not OK choice. Overtaking on the right is the preferred option but there are times when it isn't the safest thing to do.
Gardai are correct to pull people for overtaking on the left when it isn't warranted by the situation. They are also correct to recognise when it is the best option - as can be seen from the reply they gave to the question posed earlier in the thread.
As I was pestered with before, do you have any legislation to back this view up?
You cant have the situation where the legality is down to multiple peoples interpretation of the scenario.
Otherwise the defense is simple "I thought it was the safer option your Honour"0 -
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the_pen_turner wrote: »the law says you can overtake on the left if the vehicle to your right is going slow.
slow is an opinion not fact or absolute
my interpretation is that driving at the limit or what is the safe normal speed for the conditions is normal speed . someone going more than that is going fast . anyone going less is slow.
so by my logic anyone going less than the normal expected speed for the road an be overtaken on the left
You are correct. "Normal" speed is maximum speed. From R of the R
You must not overtake when
1 You are at or near a pelican crossing, zebra crossing or at pedestrian signals.
2 A traffic sign or road marking prohibits it.
3 You are approaching a junction.
4 You are on the approach to a corner, bend, dip in the road, hump-back bridge, brow of a hill or on a narrow road.
5. *You are in the left-hand lane of a dual carriageway or motorway when traffic is moving at normal speed.*
6 At any other time, to do so would cause danger or inconvenience to another road user.0 -
Sean Kinvarra wrote: »You are correct. "Normal" speed is maximum speed. From R of the R
You must not overtake when
1 You are at or near a pelican crossing, zebra crossing or at pedestrian signals.
2 A traffic sign or road marking prohibits it.
3 You are approaching a junction.
4 You are on the approach to a corner, bend, dip in the road, hump-back bridge, brow of a hill or on a narrow road.
5. *You are in the left-hand lane of a dual carriageway or motorway when traffic is moving at normal speed.*
6 At any other time, to do so would cause danger or inconvenience to another road user.
is that list available in statutory instrument form or whatever the legal type jobbie is?
1. plenty of safe overtakes at or near pellican crossings and pedestrian signals.. unless you're supposed to lock speeds with the car beside you when you both stop to let someone cross?!
3. approaching an inactive junction, what's the issue?
4. what happens if you have a view through the corner, bend, brow of a hill, or if the 'narrow road' is actually wide enough for a safe overtake?
5. we have our examples including from the gardai..
6. not allowed to inconvenience, well fcuk there goes nearly every single overtake unless you proceed to do 200km/h once you pass them?
I'll keep taking my chances overtaking wherever it's safe anyway and disregard that stupid list0 -
I got a response from the Garda Traffic Division just now:
what's the point of asking them?, AGS have demonstrated numerous times in the past a complete lack of understanding of laws and their application.
A legal professional or judge are the only people who can reasonably comment on it and give a professional opinion.0 -
Cookie_Monster wrote: »what's the point of asking them?, AGS have demonstrated numerous times in the past a complete lack of understanding of laws and their application.
A legal professional or judge are the only people who can reasonably comment on it and give a professional opinion.
just put money in the poor box and you won't have to get any opinion from the judge. at least the garda opinion will decide if you will get pulled over at all0 -
So we have seen the following over the last few pages:
- A Garda stating that it’s okay to adopt a “common sense approach” and to keep going in Lane 1 if someone is lane-hogging in Lane 3
- A driver pulled over by the Gardai for driving up behind someone in Lane 2 on the M1 and then executing an undertaking manoeuvre.
- A Garda accepting that an “undertake” is okay at the Spawell roundabout in circumstances where no manoeuvre has taken place.
Greebo, your argument is in tatters; it is time to admit that you have got this one wrong.0 -
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Sean Kinvarra wrote:"Normal" speed is maximum speed.
Says who?
Because this is really the crux of your position: the interpretation of 'normal' v 'slow moving'.0 -
Except that it won't come before legal professionals unless a Garda has intervened in the first place. That's where you can and do find inconsistencies as some Gardai might see a situation differently to others.Cookie_Monster wrote: »I got a response from the Garda Traffic Division just now:
what's the point of asking them?, AGS have demonstrated numerous times in the past a complete lack of understanding of laws and their application.
A legal professional or judge are the only people who can reasonably comment on it and give a professional opinion.
That doesn't mean drivers shouldn't exercise their judgement in risky situations.0 -
Absolutely you can. If it comes down to it, all evidence and facts are considered. (A good argument for having a dashcam.)Nope, you still don't get it.
Its not a black/white, OK/not OK choice. Overtaking on the right is the preferred option but there are times when it isn't the safest thing to do.
Gardai are correct to pull people for overtaking on the left when it isn't warranted by the situation. They are also correct to recognise when it is the best option - as can be seen from the reply they gave to the question posed earlier in the thread.
You cant have the situation where the legality is down to multiple peoples interpretation of the scenario.
Otherwise the defense is simple "I thought it was the safer option your Honour"
The priority should be to avoid an accident. Assessing liability after one happens is a secondary matter.0 -
Absolute nonsense. Its an offence to lane hog. Why would the gardai allow someone to hog outside lanes and wait for someone to legally pass on inside. I suppose you'll tell us next you've seen gardai pull in buses for passing traffic on its right when bus lane not in operation.I do, yes. As I said earlier, N7 inbound in the evenings at weekends is notorious for it. Lane 2 going at or, usually under the limit, which means I would actually have to slow down to join it, and lane 3 full of tailgating, and usually speeding, idiots continually tapping their brakes for no apparent reason. I'll take my chances undertaking in lane 1, thanks.
So in this scenario, while in lane 1 you pass a bunch of cars in lane 2 becuase you "couldnt" get into lane 3 to pass the correctly...you then catch up with cars in lane 1...what do you do now?
If lane 2/3 were too busy earlier to overtake correctly, are they suddenly OK now because you have no other option?
And if its ok to pass in lane 1, why are the Garda pulling people for doing it (as evidenced by posters in this thread and links to other threads)
If undertaking is illegal then shouldn't lane filtering also be?0 -
Absolutely you can. If it comes down to it, all evidence and facts are considered. (A good argument for having a dashcam.)
The priority should be to avoid an accident. Assessing liability after one happens is a secondary matter.
Doing nothing will also avoid an accident.
I still don't believe that it comes down to "evidence", you choose to overtake and then choose to overtake on the left.
No evidence will show that you had to overtake, nevermind on the left.0 -
I think the general consensus on this thread is if you are in lane 1 with a clear road in front, carry on as you are.
Which is what I do anyway.0 -
Andrew Beef wrote: »So we have seen the following over the last few pages:
- A Garda stating that it’s okay to adopt a “common sense approach” and to keep going in Lane 1 if someone is lane-hogging in Lane 3
- A driver pulled over by the Gardai for driving up behind someone in Lane 2 on the M1 and then executing an undertaking manoeuvre.
- A Garda accepting that an “undertake” is okay at the Spawell roundabout in circumstances where no manoeuvre has taken place.
Greebo, your argument is in tatters; it is time to admit that you have got this one wrong.
maybe re read the second bullet point?
It's not my argument, it's what's written in law.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain why it's even mentioned in the statute if it's just a matter of opinion when it's allowed or not.0 -
It’s pretty clear...someone who is driving in the left / first lane and who stays in that lane cannot overtake another vehicle. Overtaking implies a manoeuvre and a lane switch. In order for an overtaking manoeuvre to take place, one vehicle must be behind another, move, go past that vehicle, and then move in front of it.0
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Andrew Beef wrote: »Overtaking implies a manoeuvre and a lane switch. In order for an overtaking manoeuvre to take place, one vehicle must be behind another, move, go past that vehicle, and then move in front of it.
That's a pretty big leap in imagination to get to there...
Overtake:
catch up with and pass while travelling in the same direction
There is zero implication that any manoeuvre (changing lane or otherwise) is required.0 -
Andrew Beef wrote: »It’s pretty clear...someone who is driving in the left / first lane and who stays in that lane cannot overtake another vehicle.
If only you had ended your post here.
The rest I'm afraid is something you have made up.
Can you cite any relevant reference that agrees with your definition?0 -
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Well at last you got the definition of "undertaking" correctCookie_Monster wrote: »Andrew Beef wrote: »Overtaking implies a manoeuvre and a lane switch. In order for an overtaking manoeuvre to take place, one vehicle must be behind another, move, go past that vehicle, and then move in front of it.
That's a pretty big leap in imagination to get to there...
Overtake:
catch up with and pass while travelling in the same direction
There is zero implication that any manoeuvre (changing lane or otherwise) is required.0 -
TheChizler wrote: »The above, and does "slow moving traffic" for the purposes of being allowed to overtake on the left mean "anything slower than me" or stop-start/queues. The usual.
Slow moving traffic is considered to actually mean you are in slow moving traffic and traffic on your right is moving more slowly than you are.
I absolutely hate quoting the ROTR as it is not law, but in this case I will as many seem to preach what it says (when it comes to the actual application of the law we steer well clear of the ROTR):-You may overtake on the left when
You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved out and signalled that they intend to turn right.
You have signalled that you intend to turn left.
Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly but traffic in the left-hand lane is moving more quickly than the right-hand lane – for example, in slow moving stop/start traffic conditions.
The current provision in the 1997 Regulations are a direct copy of the provisions of the Road Traffic General Bye-Laws 1964 (which the 1997 Regulations replaced). In the early 1960s Charles Haughey indicated that this measure would be introduced for the purpose of easing congestion in allowing drivers to use all lanes, in other words it applied to vehicles approaching traffic congestion/traffic lights or start-stop/queues, this is where the vehicles as opposed to vehicle comes into play, and yes when it comes to the rules of statutory interpretation plural as opposed to singular does have a huge impact in deciding what it means.the_pen_turner wrote: »the law says you can overtake on the left if the vehicle to your right is going slow.
slow is an opinion not fact or absolute
my interpretation is that driving at the limit or what is the safe normal speed for the conditions is normal speed . someone going more than that is going fast . anyone going less is slow.
so by my logic anyone going less than the normal expected speed for the road an be overtaken on the left
This is not what the law says, it says “in slow-moving traffic” (this is the qualifying criteria in bold), you can overtake on the left if the vehicle on the right is going slower than you (this is the condition of the qualifying criteria to be met in italics). In other words yes the law says you can overtake on the left a vehicle which on your right is moving more slowly than you are, but it must be in a situation where there is slow moving traffic, a vehicle which is moving slower than you is not slow-moving traffic.(5)(a) A driver (other than a pedal cyclist) may only overtake on the left—
<SNIP>
(iii) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver’s right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicleAfter 873 posts of circular argument, am I the only driver has been pulled up by Garda road traffic corps for overtaking on the left?
So I was driving North on the M1 a few miles north on the airport. On a largely empty Road I came up behind one car hogging the right lane of the motorway driving about 100km/h. I stayed behind him for a while and he wasn't moving so I moved into the left Lane and overtook on the left. And thereafter resumed 120 and on I went.
About a minute later I will pulled up by a Garda and he asked me if I knew why he
p pulled me in etc etc. He said what I should have done is as follows: come up behind the fast lane hogger but don't go up his ass. flash lights an him. flash lights again and give him a good long blast the horn. if he won't move over, all I can do is move to the left Lane, stay behind him, and report him to the traffic watch phone number.
So that was official advice from Garda. He let me go with a caution and agreed that it is exasperating to have idiot drivers like that who hog the right lans.
Still, I am the guy he pulled in and not the right lane hogger who continued on his merry way throughout. I.e. no disrespect intended to the Force but the law really is an ass.
Good to know they are promoting road rage type actions and illegal use of the headlight.I got a response from the Garda Traffic Division just now:kbannon wrote:Hi,
I'm hoping that you can assist in a debate that I'm following on boards.ie. This is purely a theoretical query and not as a result of any offence committed.
If I'm driving along the M50 in lane 1 (assume close to the speed limit) and there is nobody else in lane 1 ahead of me and only one car in lane 2 driving more slowy, am I to overtake this car by moving to lane 3 before returning to lane 1 or an I continue driving in lane 1 to pass them?
If there are cars driving alongside in both lanes 2 and 3 (both driving more slowly than me), how do I overtake? Do I pass on the left (as is my only option to pass) or should I slow down and wait for lane room on lane three before passing?
Thread on boards.ie: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/show...p?t=2057760594Garda Traffic Division wrote:Dear kbannon,
Thank you for your correspondence. You are correct in your assumption that overtaking should be carried out on the right, except in the circumstances of a vehicle in front turning right or in slow moving traffic.
Unfortunately, you can only be responsible for your own driving and therefore a common sense approach is required. In the circumstances you have outlined, it would make sense to continue in lane 1 as it is unobstructed. This does not excuse the behaviour of the other drivers. It is an issue that Garda members address on a daily basis and the Road Safety Authority have addressed with a media campaign.
Yours sincerely,
The Gardai can only give their opinion just like everyone else, they don’t interpret the law, courts do. Also worth noting that generally good sense and sound judgement just don’t go hand in hand with the law.Andrew Beef wrote: »It’s pretty clear...someone who is driving in the left / first lane and who stays in that lane cannot overtake another vehicle. Overtaking implies a manoeuvre and a lane switch. In order for an overtaking manoeuvre to take place, one vehicle must be behind another, move, go past that vehicle, and then move in front of it.
Completely wrong, it means simply to pass another vehicle. Have a look at this post which dealt with what you are saying.
Finally for those who claim Gardaí don't stop those who undertake have a look at this:-
http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15778:judge-criticises-slow-drivers-in-careless-driving-case&catid=23:news&Itemid=460 -
Sean Kinvarra wrote: »Well at last you got the definition of "undertaking" correct
what are you on about now
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Excellent post GM228, but unfortunately you are wasting your time using mere facts to prove your point on here.
Hearsay is where it's at I'm afraid.0 -
S....This is not what the law says, it says “in slow-moving traffic” (this is the qualifying criteria in bold), you can overtake on the left if the vehicle on the right is going slower than you (this is the condition of the qualifying criteria to be met in italics). In other words yes the law says you can overtake on the left a vehicle which on your right is moving more slowly than you are, but it must be in a situation where there is slow moving traffic, a vehicle which is moving slower than you is not slow-moving traffic.....
Maybe you could answer his questions.......
At what speed is overtaking on the left legal on an Irish motorway?
Also what specific speed is this..
Also what speed is slow..
Since he wasn't happy that it wasn't relative to other traffic and conditions, but instead wanted a specific number....I'm using basic logic to link the motorway signs defining slow as 50km/h wi....0 -
TheChizler wrote: »The above, and does "slow moving traffic" for the purposes of being allowed to overtake on the left mean "anything slower than me" or stop-start/queues. The usual.
Slow moving traffic is considered to actually mean you are in slow moving traffic and traffic on your right is moving more slowly than you are.
I absolutely hate quoting the ROTR as it is not law, but in this case I will as many seem to preach what it says (when it comes to the actual application of the law we steer well clear of the ROTR):-You may overtake on the left when
You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved out and signalled that they intend to turn right.
You have signalled that you intend to turn left.
Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly but traffic in the left-hand lane is moving more quickly than the right-hand lane – for example, in slow moving stop/start traffic conditions.
The current provision in the 1997 Regulations are a direct copy of the provisions of the Road Traffic General Bye-Laws 1964 (which the 1997 Regulations replaced). In the early 1960s Charles Haughey indicated that this measure would be introduced for the purpose of easing congestion in allowing drivers to use all lanes, in other words it applied to vehicles approaching traffic congestion/traffic lights or start-stop/queues, this is where the vehicles as opposed to vehicle comes into play, and yes when it comes to the rules of statutory interpretation plural as opposed to singular does have a huge impact in deciding what it means.the_pen_turner wrote: »the law says you can overtake on the left if the vehicle to your right is going slow.
slow is an opinion not fact or absolute
my interpretation is that driving at the limit or what is the safe normal speed for the conditions is normal speed . someone going more than that is going fast . anyone going less is slow.
so by my logic anyone going less than the normal expected speed for the road an be overtaken on the left
This is not what the law says, it says “in slow-moving traffic” (this is the qualifying criteria in bold), you can overtake on the left if the vehicle on the right is going slower than you (this is the condition of the qualifying criteria to be met in italics). In other words yes the law says you can overtake on the left a vehicle which on your right is moving more slowly than you are, but it must be in a situation where there is slow moving traffic, a vehicle which is moving slower than you is not slow-moving traffic.(5)(a) A driver (other than a pedal cyclist) may only overtake on the left—
A garda will not stop a motorist for undertaking. That link is where a car undertook slow moving traffic using the same lane and I assume part of the hard shoulder. He may have got away with it if the overtaken cars were indicating to take the next right turn. Rediculious comparing that to a multi lane dual carraigeway.0 -
Doing nothing will also avoid an accident.
On the contrary, by also blocking Lane 1 you are adding to the problem and increasing the chances of an accident - perhaps not for you but for others.
Good drivers are aware of the impact of their actions/behaviour and take responsibility for it. Myopia is not good driving.0 -
On the contrary, by also blocking Lane 1 you are adding to the problem and increasing the chances of an accident - perhaps not for you but for others.
.
Can you explain how driving in the driving lane can increase the chances of an accident?
You must avoid single lane roads then I guess?0 -
AGS enforce the law. A driver is unlikely to appear before a judge if they weren't first stopped by a garda!Cookie_Monster wrote: »what's the point of asking them?, AGS have demonstrated numerous times in the past a complete lack of understanding of laws and their application.
A legal professional or judge are the only people who can reasonably comment on it and give a professional opinion.
Therefore, their opinion on a vague point of law is important. The law allows a driver to pass on the left in certain circumstances, one of which is in slow moving traffic. As slow moving has not been defined, the gardai use their discretion on this but it is based on an estimate and has no maximum value (i.e. there is nothing in law to say what is the fastest speed one can drive at to still be deemed slow moving (something some posters have refused to acknowledge here)).
Therefore AGS are in some cases enforcing an ill-defined law.0 -
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On the contrary, by also blocking Lane 1 you are adding to the problem and increasing the chances of an accident - perhaps not for you but for others.
.
Can you explain how driving in the driving lane can increase the chances of an accident?
You must avoid single lane roads then I guess?
A question that (again) demonstrates your poor understanding of how motorways/multi lane roads work (or are supposed to.)
Lanes 2 and 3 are there to enable the overtaking of slower traffic so that everyone can move at their desired speed. A Lane Hogger in 2 stops that happening and forces traffic into Lane 3, increasing risk.
By staying in Lane 1 at the same speed as the hogger in 2, you make the problem even worse by causing a build up in both Lanes 1 and 2. This adds to the chances of accidents by forcing even more traffic into Lane 3, in some cases unwisely due to impatience/irritation.
Contributing to accidents takes several forms, including inaction, but this has already been explained several times so I'm not confident you will grasp it this time either.0
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