Ireland vs Japan

ionadnapokot

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Ireland: (15-9) A Conway; K Earls, G Ringrose, L Marshall, J Stockdale; P Jackson, K Marmion;
(1-8) C Healy, J Tracy, J Ryan, K Treadwell, D Toner, R Ruddock (capt), J Conan, J van der Flier.
Replacements: (16-23) N Scannell, D Kilcoyne, A Porter, J Ryan, S Reidy; J Cooney, R Scannell, T O’Halloran

Zebo, McGrath and Leavy not considered due to injury

You'd have to feel a bit for Killer.

Anyone know Is Treadwell a groundhog type of 2nd row or more of an athletic lineout type?

Buer

.ak wrote: »

That screen shot is unfair, like with everything in rugby you need to see how things are unfolding in real time.

The inside player held his ground, the outside player bit in.

The exact opposite happened. The inside player (who knocked it on) came at Ringrose. The outside player, who was only going at half pace, had stayed out on McGrath and only began to move across when he saw Ringrose pass the ball inside.

In real time, it actually looks more like the outside ball was a worse option than the inside pass. The winger is comfortable and in a good position to take McGrath down. The inside defender (who knocked on) is coming across and would be in a position to make a tackle almost immediately.

wp_rathead

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I've no issue with Ryan getting the time. Healy, i dont really see the point in giving him the three. The two good performances will have done wonders for him, the third just exposes to a higher risk of injury

Ya would have liked Kilcoyne to start the USA game along with Scannell and Ryan - and have Healy play the two Japanese games

Rigor Mortis

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

The two good performances will have done wonders for him, the third just exposes to a higher risk of injury

I think Healy has had his time fairly well managed all season to be honest, I'd say he has a fair bit left in the tank.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

What the selection also suggests to me is that there a number of lads who are out there and aren't really in consideration for Irish selection. They're just being given the benefit of touring and training with the squad whilst providing cover.

JOD, Reidy, Cooney, ROL and Heffernan are the ones that stand out. One appearance from the bench at most for each.

Maybe worth adding Tiernan O'Halloran to that list...

Really looks fairly clear now that he's not considered a realistic option at fullback with Conway getting the start there ahead of him.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Maybe worth adding Tiernan O'Halloran to that list...

Really looks fairly clear now that he's not considered a realistic option at fullback with Conway getting the start there ahead of him.

That's been clear for a long time at this point. he'll never feature regularly under Schmidt. Will probably continue to make extended squads and these sort of half strength tours but that's it.

Jump_In_Jack

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Maybe worth adding Tiernan O'Halloran to that list...

Really looks fairly clear now that he's not considered a realistic option at fullback with Conway getting the start there ahead of him.

It's certainly an interesting selection, but it may well be that Conway is getting a run to see what he can do, it may well be the case they are in direct competition to be next in line after Zebo.

Would still say the pecking order is R. Kearney, Zebo, O'Halloran, Conway, despite the selection.
The fact O'Halloran gets more game-time regularly at full-back for his club makes a stronger case for him I suppose.

pickarooney

Is Bealham now a forgotten man? If he's not injured then he seems to have slipped from second to pretty much fourth choice TH and his ambipropsterousness is no longer an advantage with Ryan and Porter being converted LHs.

pickarooney

pickarooney wrote: »

Is Bealham now a forgotten man? If he's not injured then he seems to have slipped from second to pretty much fourth choice TH and his ambipropsterousness is no longer an advantage with Ryan and Porter being converted LHs.

Hard to know. Ryan has had a good season but I presume Bealham would be ahead of Porter. I don't know what his fitness and power levels are like but I know from Mike Ross's IAMA that Porter is the most powerful lifter alongside Healy in the Leinster setup.

leakyboots

Deleted User wrote: »

Hard to know. Ryan has had a good season but I presume Bealham would be ahead of Porter. I don't know what his fitness and power levels are like but I know from Mike Ross's IAMA that Porter is the most powerful lifter alongside Healy in the Leinster setup.

Mushy Buckley could lift too Wanna see them scrummage, John Ryan's scrummaging is superb, some turnaround for a guy who was suffering with serious illness. With Bealham challenging and Porter coming up behind that's great depth to have in a crucial position.

Agree with the above, Healy shouldn't have gotten all 3 starts, I just don't see the point. He's an established international on a central contract - Jack McGrath or Healy goes out with an injury during Autumn/6N and you've more than likely got an underexposed Killer on the bench, this was the ideal tour to give him a game - his first start was against USA. He's started against Fiji, Argentina, Canada, Georgia - 19 caps, think the rest have been subs appearances. Maybe he's just not rated enough like JOD doesn't seem to be. Minor enough quibble but still, surprised CH got the nod again.

Leinster have gone from a complete dearth of THs, for years and years, to have Ross, Furlong, Moore, Bent and now Porter all Irish internationals in the past 5-6 seasons. I know not all Leinster developed but not bad going.

Jump_In_Jack

Regarding hooker, just curious if anyone knows if there is a reason Rob Herring has not been called up in the recent Irish camps?
Is he lacking something or just unlucky with timing of injuries?
I would have guessed the pecking order for hooker based on what I've seen over the past few seasons should be Best, Cronin, McCartney, Scannell, Herring, Strauss, Tracy, Heffernan, etc?

leakyboots

Dunno about that order at all tbh

leakyboots

Scannell hasn't put a foot wrong, I'd say him and Tracy are gone past Strauss... Scannell could even be threatening Sean Cronin. McCartney, I dunno where he features, behind the aforementioned anyways I'd have thought.

Jump_In_Jack

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Regarding hooker, just curious if anyone knows if there is a reason Rob Herring has not been called up in the recent Irish camps?
Is he lacking something or just unlucky with timing of injuries?
I would have guessed the pecking order for hooker based on what I've seen over the past few seasons should be Best, Cronin, McCartney, Scannell, Herring, Strauss, Tracy, Heffernan, etc?

He just hasn't been playing very well imo.

Scannell is definitely up there as second choice or very close to it now I think, he's been really good this season, and has done well for Ireland too.

irishbucsfan

leakyboots wrote: »

Scannell hasn't put a foot wrong, I'd say him and Tracy are gone past Strauss... Scannell could even be threatening Sean Cronin. McCartney, I dunno where he features, behind the aforementioned anyways I'd have thought.

Agreed. I think Scannell could be #2 and Tracy could be #4 at this stage.

Hard to know where McCartney is, we'll find out soon.

Former Coach

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it's a case of us having a lot of depth in the forwards already so Joe looking for a platform up front to allow an inexperienced back line play some rugby.

In terms of who kicks on, it really depends on a couple of things. Who will get to play against the best opposition, who will get the best coaching / mentoring, who will have a good injury profile, who will have the right level of competition for jerseys etc etc.

I think Porter has a good shout as he seems to be a bit of a specimen and Furlong will be away a lot of the season. It's an area we've limited depth.

I'm glad Furlong has had Lions exposure as he'll learn a lot with Ross gone.

I think Stockdale could be our new Tommy Bowe in the coming two seasons.

Agreed......... But Jacob Sockdaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaale doesn't have the same ring to it😜

molloyjh

The only reason Scannell might not be considered second choice would the completely different game that Cronin brings. But that's about it. He's been very good and would be deserving of the back up spot. It's hard to know after the first 3 who fits where exactly. Tracys age will work in his favour though.

Buer

leakyboots wrote: »

Scannell hasn't put a foot wrong, I'd say him and Tracy are gone past Strauss... Scannell could even be threatening Sean Cronin. McCartney, I dunno where he features, behind the aforementioned anyways I'd have thought.

I'd be surprised if Scannell hadn't passed Cronin out already. If Rory Best gets food poisoning the night before a match, there's no doubt in my mind who I'd start.

bilston

I would have thought Scannell was second choice now and by this time next year could well be 1st pick.

Somebody asked about Herring earlier. He hasn't been playing well enough. Lucky to be second choice at Ulster by the end of the season.

Former Coach

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

It's certainly an interesting selection, but it may well be that Conway is getting a run to see what he can do, it may well be the case they are in direct competition to be next in line after Zebo.

Would still say the pecking order is R. Kearney, Zebo, O'Halloran, Conway, despite the selection.
The fact O'Halloran gets more game-time regularly at full-back for his club makes a stronger case for him I suppose.

Agreed, I'd say Joe always intended to give each of the three a start at 15 and the jury is still out on pecking order. We should know more after Saturday.

CIARAN_BOYLE

bilston wrote: »

I would have thought Scannell was second choice now and by this time next year could well be 1st pick.

Somebody asked about Herring earlier. He hasn't been playing well enough. Lucky to be second choice at Ulster by the end of the season.

Scannell second choice but Cronin might stay the bench hooker for impact purposes.

.ak

Buer wrote: »

The exact opposite happened. The inside player (who knocked it on) came at Ringrose. The outside player, who was only going at half pace, had stayed out on McGrath and only began to move across when he saw Ringrose pass the ball inside.

In real time, it actually looks more like the outside ball was a worse option than the inside pass. The winger is comfortable and in a good position to take McGrath down. The inside defender (who knocked on) is coming across and would be in a position to make a tackle almost immediately.

That's not how I see it, the 12 has his hips turned in on Ringrose, and McGrath kept his width and depth, even in the screenshot the 12 is closer to Ringrose, he's already bit in, McGrath is away there if the ball goes to him.

irishbucsfan

Just to be clear here, we're criticising Ringrose for making a pass that it took foul play to interrupt, and should have led to at least a yellow card. Likely would have led to a try without that foul play. This is mad.

Former Former

I'm disappointed that some guys are getting three starts while others are going to go home with nothing more than 20 minutes off the bench.

I suppose it's good that Ireland are taking it so seriously but this tour looks like the nail in the coffin for a few international careers.

wp_rathead

Former Former wrote: »

I'm disappointed that some guys are getting three starts while others are going to go home with nothing more than 20 minutes off the bench.

I suppose it's good that Ireland are taking it so seriously but this tour looks like the nail in the coffin for a few international careers.

ROL, Cooney and Heffernan? Wouldn't write off their Irish careers just yet

Jump_In_Jack

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Scannell second choice but Cronin might stay the bench hooker for impact purposes.

Would agree with this for the November series.
I highly rated McCartney when Connacht won the league, he's hugely powerful and dynamic. I'd like to see him get a call-up assuming he can perform to that level again next season.

I could see a parallel situation arising at loose-head, where McGrath and Healy are very similar players that would be battling for a starting spot and Kilcoyne would offer a completely different skillset off the bench.
Healy and McGrath are both hugely powerful, but Kilcoyne has way more speed in open play, and often makes big carries, being one of Munster's go-to ball-carriers, and a stand-out performer in that regard last season.
His only criticism may be that he doesn't pass enough, but then props rarely do I suppose! He seems to have improved his scrummaging up to a consistent level also, not many penalties anymore, which may have been an issue in the past.
If the opposition suited a dynamic prop coming on in the second half Kilcoyne could be selected over McGrath/Healy for the bench.
I wonder where Bealham fits in now?

Rigor Mortis

Former Former wrote: »

I'm disappointed that some guys are getting three starts while others are going to go home with nothing more than 20 minutes off the bench.

I suppose it's good that Ireland are taking it so seriously but this tour looks like the nail in the coffin for a few international careers.

Looking at it, i think the goal is to have an experienced spine to build the new caps around. I get it in most cases, but there are one or two that i think are strange.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just to be clear here, we're criticising Ringrose for making a pass that it took foul play to interrupt, and should have led to at least a yellow card. Likely would have led to a try without that foul play. This is mad.

No, you're phrasing it that way.

I just think the outside option was better/less risky. The Japanese player couldbe also intercepted it if he didn't knock on.

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

No, you're phrasing it that way.

I just think the outside option was better/less risky. The Japanese player couldbe also intercepted it if he didn't knock on.

The player to Ringrose's right could also have illegally knocked the ball on. That player was also travelling with play and could have made a cover tackle. Ringrose passed it the correct way to put his man away.

Former Former

wp_rathead wrote: »

ROL, Cooney and Heffernan? Wouldn't write off their Irish careers just yet

I meant it's a nail in the coffin for guys who've been around the setup for a while and seem to be going backwards.

Kilcoyne, Bealham, TOH are the big losers in this respect IMO.

shuffol

Buer wrote: »

The exact opposite happened. The inside player (who knocked it on) came at Ringrose. The outside player, who was only going at half pace, had stayed out on McGrath and only began to move across when he saw Ringrose pass the ball inside.

In real time, it actually looks more like the outside ball was a worse option than the inside pass. The winger is comfortable and in a good position to take McGrath down. The inside defender (who knocked on) is coming across and would be in a position to make a tackle almost immediately.

I'm with AK on this one and was very disappointed we didn't finish that. I thought Ringrose tried to be too clever, he looked right just before he passed and should've given the ball to McGrath then. The Japanese player on the outside was running backwards, he was in no position to halt the pass to McGrath, if he gave the pass the Japanese player on the inside was out of the game and we'd have been left with a 4 on 1.

The highlight reel moment of Toner's career will now be reduced to a footnote in a forgotten game.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

That screen shot is unfair, like with everything in rugby you need to see how things are unfolding in real time.

The inside player held his ground, the outside player bit in. That's bread and butter stuff for a player of his calbre in the midfield. He took the wrong option, it's not the end of the world and I assume the tiredness had a part to play but I have no doubt it'd be highlighted in the video session and so it should be - you can all say I'm being unduly harsh but that's the expectations I have on this group of players if we intend to dine at the top table and be a team to be feared going into 6n/rwc

The inside player did not hold his ground at all. He's not even remotely close to holding his ground in the screenshot, as the blurry legs show. He committed fully to Ringrose. The only thing that stopped a certain try was an illegal block of the pass. You have to also factor how Ringrose was taking the ball and how quick he had to transfer. Getting it left to right in that position would have taken too long. He made completely the right choice. Again, the only thing that stopped that being a certain try was an illegal block.

shuffol

I dont think Kilcoyne is a test level prop and starting against Japan isn't going to change that. Healy/Ryan are our clear 2nd choice props now so probably a case of giving them as much game time together as possible.

Jump_In_Jack

shuffol wrote: »

I dont think Kilcoyne is a test level prop and starting against Japan isn't going to change that. Healy/Ryan are our clear 2nd choice props now so probably a case of giving them as much game time together as possible.

I think there's little doubt that the first and second choice props are in this order,
Loose-head: McGrath/Healy,
Tight-head: Furlong, Ryan,

Beyond that?
Kilcoyne, ?
Porter/Bealham, ?

Who else is after that?

shuffol

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I think there's little doubt that the first and second choice props are in this order,
Loose-head: McGrath/Healy,
Tight-head: Furlong, Ryan,

Beyond that?
Kilcoyne, ?
Porter/Bealham, ?

Who else is after that?

Cronin, Buckley, Dooley, McCall would be how I'd place the rest. We've a glut of good props but I wouldn't be confident of any of those making the step up to test level, possibly Dooley but it's still early days for him. It'd be nice to see a top level prospect emerge at LH in the next few years now that Porter has moved to TH. That said I think we're as well fixed as we've ever been depth wise.

Former Former

shuffol wrote: »

I dont think Kilcoyne is a test level prop and starting against Japan isn't going to change that. Healy/Ryan are our clear 2nd choice props now so probably a case of giving them as much game time together as possible.

Yeah, exactly - I think these selections confirm that the gap between Healy and Kilcoyne is pretty wide.

Bealham is maybe the biggest loser of all, considering Porter's pro career at tighthead was 20 minutes, prior to this tour.

TOH is just never going to feature under Joe unless he ups his game considerably.

leakyboots

I don't think Killer has been particularly found out at international level or if you can say he's not a test level prop - he's in line to get his 20th cap. He's played against Argentina x 3, South Africa x 3, Wales, England, Scotland, USA, Canada, Georgia etc.

I'm not arsed going researching those exact minutes as a lot of them were subs... but my point is I don't remember him getting mullered or being obviously very poor in his time on the pitch. I just think he's been behind Healy so we haven't seen a lot of him.. which is why maybe he should have gotten one start on the tour. Or maybe he's just not rated as test level by Schmidders

shuffol

Former Former wrote: »

Yeah, exactly - I think these selections confirm that the gap between Healy and Kilcoyne is pretty wide.

Bealham is maybe the biggest loser of all, considering Porter's pro career at tighthead was 20 minutes, prior to this tour.

TOH is just never going to feature under Joe unless he ups his game considerably.

Yep, in fairness to Schmidt I think he's proven to be excellent at judging which players have the skillset for test rugby and those who don't. There's not many players I can think of who he's backed and they've turned out to be duds. The perseverance with Madigan over Jackson is the only time I'd be confident in saying he got it wrong.

Hopefully that bodes well for James Ryan, Porter, and Stockdale.

leakyboots

Regarding TOH, I don't know what he has to do, looks to be a fine player, certainly attacking wise.

molloyjh

leakyboots wrote: »

Regarding TOH, I don't know what he has to do, looks to be a fine player, certainly attacking wise.

I thought he faded out of the USA game a fair bit after a strong start. He played the whole second half last week and didn't really make a huge statement there either.

shuffol

leakyboots wrote: »

I don't think Killer has been particularly found out at international level or if you can say he's not a test level prop - he's in line to get his 20th cap. He's played against Argentina x 3, South Africa x 3, Wales, England, Scotland, USA, Canada, Georgia etc.

I'm not arsed going researching those exact minutes as a lot of them were subs... but my point is I don't remember him getting mullered or being obviously very poor in his time on the pitch. I just think he's been behind Healy so we haven't seen a lot of him.. which is why maybe he should have gotten one start on the tour. Or maybe he's just not rated as test level by Schmidders

I don't think he's been found out but I wouldn't be confident in him starting in a big game. I don't think he's a top level scrummager and his carrying style makes him liable to turn the ball over against organised defences, which in the 6N means any side other than Italy at the moment. He likes to take the ball deep and have a run at his opposite number, against an organised defence one man will take him low and another will be ready to go over the ball.

pickarooney

Former Coach wrote: »

Agreed......... But Jacob Sockdaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaale doesn't have the same ring to it😜

It's only a matter of time before 'a couple of Jacobs' becomes rhyming slang for cocktails.

Neil3030

pickarooney wrote: »

It's only a matter of time before 'a couple of Jacobs' becomes rhyming slang for cocktails.

Genius. And can we then start calling Stockdale, 'Molly', as in, short for 'Molotov'?

Former Former

leakyboots wrote: »

Regarding TOH, I don't know what he has to do, looks to be a fine player, certainly attacking wise.

You've answered your own question.

leakyboots

Poor defence hasn't stopped the 15 for the last few years

Neil3030

leakyboots wrote: »

Poor defence hasn't stopped the 15 for the last few years

Very true. And good defences have consistently struggled to stop him aswell.

thebaz

leakyboots wrote: »

Poor defence hasn't stopped the 15 for the last few years

Rob Kearney has probably been the best Irish 15 ever - missed a few tackles down the years , but in big games he has been immense - his defence under high ball was as good as as anynone - on form against the best he has more than held his own.

Former Former

TOH is not competing with Kearney.

JPCN1

Jeremias Cool Explosion wrote: »

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Regarding hooker, just curious if anyone knows if there is a reason Rob Herring has not been called up in the recent Irish camps?
Is he lacking something or just unlucky with timing of injuries?
I would have guessed the pecking order for hooker based on what I've seen over the past few seasons should be Best, Cronin, McCartney, Scannell, Herring, Strauss, Tracy, Heffernan, etc?

He just hasn't been playing very well imo.

Scannell is definitely up there as second choice or very close to it now I think, he's been really good this season, and has done well for Ireland too.

Rory is 35 in August so it's time Scannell was given the Jersey. No disrespect to one of our all time greats but he won't be going to the World cup so time for the younger men to be bedded in imho.