Ireland vs Japan

leakyboots · 22-06-2017 9:47am

Find it a bit strange the Healy and John Ryan get to start all 3 matches, was sure Killer would get a go in at least one game and why not let Porter show what he can, he's out there anyway. Curious to see how the lineout goes with JT at the helm. I say, see, but not a hope am I getting up for the match, highlights will have to do

Burkie1203 · 22-06-2017 9:59am

leakyboots wrote: »

Find it a bit strange the Healy and John Ryan get to start all 3 matches, was sure Killer would get a go in at least one game and why not let Porter show what he can, he's out there anyway. Curious to see how the lineout goes with JT at the helm. I say, see, but not a hope am I getting up for the match, highlights will have to do

Rotating two new hookers and second rows so having same props is logical IMO.

thomond2006 · 22-06-2017 9:59am

I don't think Kilcoyne is ever going to be a key player for Ireland. John Ryan is already the established backup TH but needs the starts. There's plenty of time for Porter.

Hooker is an interesting position going forward. 2017-18 is likely to be Rory Best's final season and unless there's a 6N title at play he should be phased out.

Buer · 22-06-2017 10:00am

.ak wrote: »

He still ****ed it up. As an international centre he has to have better awareness of his surrounding. The inside pass was covered. The man outside him had a free run.

That's an incredibly harsh view of it. When he gets the ball, he has two defenders in front of him in almost identical positions; one to his left and one to his right. If he gives the ball right, McGrath has a winger to beat still. If the pass goes inside the man who knocks it on is out of the picture and the winger has a lot of ground to make up.

It's a split second decision and both are equally likely to result in a try but for foul play from a defender.

molloyjh · 22-06-2017 10:03am

.ak wrote: »

He still ****ed it up. As an international centre he has to have better awareness of his surrounding. The inside pass was covered. The man outside him had a free run.

The inside pass was not "covered". It was blocked down illegally. Both options were good options.

22-06-2017 10:08am

leakyboots wrote: »

Find it a bit strange the Healy and John Ryan get to start all 3 matches, was sure Killer would get a go in at least one game and why not let Porter show what he can, he's out there anyway. Curious to see how the lineout goes with JT at the helm. I say, see, but not a hope am I getting up for the match, highlights will have to do

I think it's a case of us having a lot of depth in the forwards already so Joe looking for a platform up front to allow an inexperienced back line play some rugby.

In terms of who kicks on, it really depends on a couple of things. Who will get to play against the best opposition, who will get the best coaching / mentoring, who will have a good injury profile, who will have the right level of competition for jerseys etc etc.

I think Porter has a good shout as he seems to be a bit of a specimen and Furlong will be away a lot of the season. It's an area we've limited depth.

I'm glad Furlong has had Lions exposure as he'll learn a lot with Ross gone.

I think Stockdale could be our new Tommy Bowe in the coming two seasons.

irishbucsfan · 22-06-2017 10:09am

molloyjh wrote: »

The inside pass was not "covered". It was blocked down illegally. Both options were good options.

Both passes were equally covered. It's impossible to know that the Japanese player would illegally knock the ball on to block the pass going left and also impossible to know that the Japanese player on the other side wouldn't have done that same.

irishbucsfan · 22-06-2017 10:10am

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it's a case of us having a lot of depth in the forwards already so Joe looking for a platform up front to allow an inexperienced back line play some rugby.

I think its also a case of both Healy and Ryan being Lions contenders should there be an injury in New Zealand

leakyboots · 22-06-2017 10:14am

I guess I meant more in terms of the overall tour, not just this game. Anyway, a moot point

22-06-2017 10:14am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think its also a case of both Healy and Ryan being Lions contenders should there be an injury in New Zealand

Also true. When you look at Marler's performance against the Chiefs you've to feel a bit sorry for Healy.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 22-06-2017 10:19am

leakyboots wrote: »

I guess I meant more in terms of the overall tour, not just this game. Anyway, a moot point

I'm definitely of the opinion that he has picked certain positions for development and certain positions for experience. Prop has been decided as an experience position so he keeps it the same and gives other players a chance to play with a first choice 23 unit.

irishbucsfan · 22-06-2017 10:22am

Deleted User wrote: »

Also true. When you look at Marler's performance against the Chiefs you've to feel a bit sorry for Healy.

The guys that Joe singled out as being potentially Lions lads on standby have been ever-present (Earls was one as well). I think he's letting those guys keep their momentum.

Buer · 22-06-2017 10:27am

I think it's a case of giving the lads who are in the test 23 as much game time as possible. Healy, Marmion, Ryan, Jackson, Niall Scannell, Toner, Ringrose, Earls. Then bringing in a few new lads around them. It's going to be much easier to integrate someone like Kieran Treadwell into the set up alongside Devin Toner than next to Quinn Roux. Or Jacob Stockdale outside Ringrose than ROL.

They want the new guys to get an opportunity to blend into the squad properly and not just earn a few redundant caps which will be completely useless if they're called upon to face South Africa in 5 months.

Buer · 22-06-2017 10:35am

What the selection also suggests to me is that there a number of lads who are out there and aren't really in consideration for Irish selection. They're just being given the benefit of touring and training with the squad whilst providing cover.

JOD, Reidy, Cooney, ROL and Heffernan are the ones that stand out. One appearance from the bench at most for each.

.ak · 22-06-2017 10:37am

thebaz wrote: »

very harsh - no matter what the level these are split second decisions - wrong option chosen - granted internationals should make less wrong options than rest - but sometimes anyone can get in wrong - even BOD did in his prime.

That's right, nothing wrong with it, everyone had their off days.

Interested Observer wrote: »

Ringrose must have pissed in your cornflakes at some point in time. Goes back to his breakthrough into the Leinster team, desperate nit picking.

Very defensive there IO. I've heaped on more praise than anything negative for him. I am a big fan, my only issues I had with him when he broke through is I thought he was too small for international rugby when everyone was outraged at the very thought of Schmidt not picking him (including BOD), all I said was he needed another season of regular PRO12 rugby under his belt to get accustomized to that level of impact and contact work and I was right. He's significantly added to his frame and is far more hardier in contact.

Jump_In_Jack · 22-06-2017 10:39am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The guys that Joe singled out as being potentially Lions lads on standby have been ever-present (Earls was one as well). I think he's letting those guys keep their momentum.

I missed this, who did he single out?
Assuming it was Ringrose, Earls and Healy?
Or possibly Zebo and Toner too? John Ryan at a long-shot?

.ak · 22-06-2017 10:55am

Deleted User wrote: »

He just wants him to be as good as he can be..

..

..

All jokes aside, he's world class, so I do hold him to a high standard. He's not going to be a Luke Marshall fringe player, he's going to be the Irish 13 for the next decade all things hopeful.

Jump_In_Jack · 22-06-2017 10:58am

It's a pity about those three injuries, they've performed well on the tour, hopefully they will be back fit and ready to do a full pre-season with their clubs.

However unfortunate for the three casualties, it's giving an opportunity to the fringe touring players to put in a performance, which as a supporter I'm happy about:
Cooney on to the bench, Conway getting a run at fullback, Stockdale getting another start on the wing, van der Flier getting another start at open-side, and Reidy getting an opportunity off the bench covering any position in the backrow.

Great to see Cooney in the 23, (pity McGrath is injured of course) Cooney has a lot of potential, will be interesting to see how he goes.
Each province having a Irish capped scrum-half is fantastic for the Irish team. And they will all be in their prime coming up to the World Cup.

Great squad overall for this tour in all positions really to be fair.
Lots to debate about but I think that's a very good and sensible selection overall.

Will definitely set the alarm for 6:20am and hit the coffee bright and early now!

.ak · 22-06-2017 11:00am

molloyjh wrote: »

The inside pass was not "covered". It was blocked down illegally. Both options were good options.

That screen shot is unfair, like with everything in rugby you need to see how things are unfolding in real time.

The inside player held his ground, the outside player bit in. That's bread and butter stuff for a player of his calbre in the midfield. He took the wrong option, it's not the end of the world and I assume the tiredness had a part to play but I have no doubt it'd be highlighted in the video session and so it should be - you can all say I'm being unduly harsh but that's the expectations I have on this group of players if we intend to dine at the top table and be a team to be feared going into 6n/rwc

Rigor Mortis · 22-06-2017 11:07am

leakyboots wrote: »

Find it a bit strange the Healy and John Ryan get to start all 3 matches, was sure Killer would get a go in at least one game and why not let Porter show what he can, he's out there anyway. Curious to see how the lineout goes with JT at the helm. I say, see, but not a hope am I getting up for the match, highlights will have to do

I've no issue with Ryan getting the time. Healy, i dont really see the point in giving him the three. The two good performances will have done wonders for him, the third just exposes to a higher risk of injury

ionadnapokot · 22-06-2017 11:07am

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Ireland: (15-9) A Conway; K Earls, G Ringrose, L Marshall, J Stockdale; P Jackson, K Marmion;
(1-8) C Healy, J Tracy, J Ryan, K Treadwell, D Toner, R Ruddock (capt), J Conan, J van der Flier.
Replacements: (16-23) N Scannell, D Kilcoyne, A Porter, J Ryan, S Reidy; J Cooney, R Scannell, T O’Halloran

Zebo, McGrath and Leavy not considered due to injury

You'd have to feel a bit for Killer.

Anyone know Is Treadwell a groundhog type of 2nd row or more of an athletic lineout type?

Buer · 22-06-2017 11:13am

.ak wrote: »

That screen shot is unfair, like with everything in rugby you need to see how things are unfolding in real time.

The inside player held his ground, the outside player bit in.

The exact opposite happened. The inside player (who knocked it on) came at Ringrose. The outside player, who was only going at half pace, had stayed out on McGrath and only began to move across when he saw Ringrose pass the ball inside.

In real time, it actually looks more like the outside ball was a worse option than the inside pass. The winger is comfortable and in a good position to take McGrath down. The inside defender (who knocked on) is coming across and would be in a position to make a tackle almost immediately.

wp_rathead · 22-06-2017 11:16am

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I've no issue with Ryan getting the time. Healy, i dont really see the point in giving him the three. The two good performances will have done wonders for him, the third just exposes to a higher risk of injury

Ya would have liked Kilcoyne to start the USA game along with Scannell and Ryan - and have Healy play the two Japanese games

22-06-2017 11:24am

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

The two good performances will have done wonders for him, the third just exposes to a higher risk of injury

I think Healy has had his time fairly well managed all season to be honest, I'd say he has a fair bit left in the tank.

irishbucsfan · 22-06-2017 11:42am

Buer wrote: »

What the selection also suggests to me is that there a number of lads who are out there and aren't really in consideration for Irish selection. They're just being given the benefit of touring and training with the squad whilst providing cover.

JOD, Reidy, Cooney, ROL and Heffernan are the ones that stand out. One appearance from the bench at most for each.

Maybe worth adding Tiernan O'Halloran to that list...

Really looks fairly clear now that he's not considered a realistic option at fullback with Conway getting the start there ahead of him.

Interested Observer · 22-06-2017 11:51am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Maybe worth adding Tiernan O'Halloran to that list...

Really looks fairly clear now that he's not considered a realistic option at fullback with Conway getting the start there ahead of him.

That's been clear for a long time at this point. he'll never feature regularly under Schmidt. Will probably continue to make extended squads and these sort of half strength tours but that's it.

Jump_In_Jack · 22-06-2017 11:53am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Maybe worth adding Tiernan O'Halloran to that list...

Really looks fairly clear now that he's not considered a realistic option at fullback with Conway getting the start there ahead of him.

It's certainly an interesting selection, but it may well be that Conway is getting a run to see what he can do, it may well be the case they are in direct competition to be next in line after Zebo.

Would still say the pecking order is R. Kearney, Zebo, O'Halloran, Conway, despite the selection.
The fact O'Halloran gets more game-time regularly at full-back for his club makes a stronger case for him I suppose.

pickarooney · 22-06-2017 11:58am

Is Bealham now a forgotten man? If he's not injured then he seems to have slipped from second to pretty much fourth choice TH and his ambipropsterousness is no longer an advantage with Ryan and Porter being converted LHs.

22-06-2017 12:03pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Is Bealham now a forgotten man? If he's not injured then he seems to have slipped from second to pretty much fourth choice TH and his ambipropsterousness is no longer an advantage with Ryan and Porter being converted LHs.

Hard to know. Ryan has had a good season but I presume Bealham would be ahead of Porter. I don't know what his fitness and power levels are like but I know from Mike Ross's IAMA that Porter is the most powerful lifter alongside Healy in the Leinster setup.

leakyboots · 22-06-2017 12:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Hard to know. Ryan has had a good season but I presume Bealham would be ahead of Porter. I don't know what his fitness and power levels are like but I know from Mike Ross's IAMA that Porter is the most powerful lifter alongside Healy in the Leinster setup.

Mushy Buckley could lift too

Wanna see them scrummage, John Ryan's scrummaging is superb, some turnaround for a guy who was suffering with serious illness. With Bealham challenging and Porter coming up behind that's great depth to have in a crucial position.

Agree with the above, Healy shouldn't have gotten all 3 starts, I just don't see the point. He's an established international on a central contract - Jack McGrath or Healy goes out with an injury during Autumn/6N and you've more than likely got an underexposed Killer on the bench, this was the ideal tour to give him a game - his first start was against USA. He's started against Fiji, Argentina, Canada, Georgia - 19 caps, think the rest have been subs appearances. Maybe he's just not rated enough like JOD doesn't seem to be. Minor enough quibble but still, surprised CH got the nod again.

Ireland vs Japan

Comments