BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

hfjm20

Does anyone know why a single decker was on the S8 at around 6:45 this evening? Was full by the time it got to Monkstown. Standard lacklustre display from Go-Ahead imo

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123405616#Comment_123405616

A significant portion of the GAI fleet at Ballymount (I think the S8 operates out of there) are single deckers, almost 20%. So its possible there were no double deckers available. It could be related to their mechanic shortage, but it also could also just be scheduled maintenance. I wouldn't really read too much into it.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123405661#Comment_123405661

Given that the main cost of providing public transport is labour (ie the drivers wages) I can see very little advantage of using single deckers over double deckers.

The only good reason to use a single decker is low bridges of which there aren't any in Dublin as of yet until the O is introduced. The NTA should have bought a 100% double deck fleet for GAI not use a mix of single and double deckers don't understand what the thinking behind it was. There was a good reason why DB phased out it's single deckers in the 2000s/2010s bar two for the 44b.

The NTA should look at giving the streetlites to Bus Eireann or Local Link operators and make the GAI fleet 100% double deck as the Streetlites are not suitable for Dublin.

Arhanedus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123405750#Comment_123405750

If they still have single deckers, then I'm sure they have a reason for keeping them.

Some of the Go-Ahead routes have low demand, so while they can't just remove the routes, it also wouldn't necessarily make sense to run a larger bus. If there's only 10-20 passengers on the route at any given time, then to me it makes sense to run single deckers on it. The orbitals, of course, do have a lot of passengers so they have double deckers 99% of the time.

Sometimes a single decker does end up on a route where it doesn't belong, but I think that either it was a mistake, or no double deckers were available for some reason. One time in 2021 I got on a single decker on the 45a at around 4pm, which led to similar results (the bus was almost immediately full).

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123405750#Comment_123405750

Single deckers are cheaper to but then double deckers and they would use less fuel.

Dublin Bus got rid of the single deckers as part of Network Direct as they saw a big decrease in passengers numbers when the recession hit and a big reduction in fare income and thus had to significantly reduce the number of routes, drivers and buses in the fleet. The purpose of Network Direct was to allow the reduction in drivers and fleet size while trying to maintain the busiest part of the service, thus the focus on the double decker fleet.

It was the correct decision for the time, however that didn't mean that single deckers wouldn't return to the fleets as the network grew again and in particular covered much quieter outer local routes.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123406364#Comment_123406364

The big cost of running public transport is drivers wages not fuel costs and double deckers don't use a huge amount more fuel than a single decker or so I've been told by drivers. Jarrett Walker himself talks about this. On the old Imps the drivers were on less money than drivers that drove double deckers or even the bigger single deckers unions weren't happy with this and rightly rejected and fought against it successfully.

https://humantransit.org/2011/07/02box.html

Imo single deckers are fine for smaller towns/cities like Waterford, Sligo, Kilkenny, Drogheda, Athlone etc. but not suitable for Dublin as buses need to be flexible. Better to have a double decker with too much capacity than a single decker with too little.

If GAI had a 100% double deck fleet there wouldn't be capacity issues because a single decker was sent out on an S8 as no other bus was available or there was a breakdown or whatever other reason. It means more flexibility. Also the single deckers are too long for some of the routes such as the 59.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123406494#Comment_123406494

I'm aware that salaries are the biggest cost, but that doesn't change that there is money to be saved by buying some single deckers.

Keep in mind, the salaries come out of Dublin Bus/GAI budget, while the cost of buses comes out of the NTA budget. Different budgets, buses are a big cost for the NTA. The new BEV buses have cost a lot extra, so if they can save a bit elsewhere on single deckers, it can balance the budget.

There are many routes around Dublin that even at peak times won't come anywhere near filling even a single decker. It would be a waste to buy and put DD's on them.

john boye

I think there's definitely a place in the GAI network for single deckers but 40 was far too many to give them.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123406538#Comment_123406538

I thought it was about providing a decent public service not saving money. If it's all about saving money why not buy single door double deckers rather dual door buses single door buses are cheaper than dual doored buses. Btw I'm not advocating for single door buses in fact the opposite I'm just saying their cheaper than dual door buses.

I don't agree with the model of having the NTA buy the buses directly. It would be imo if the NTA provide the funding and decide on the spec but let the operators themselves pick the actual model bus they want to suit their needs. This is how it works in London the buses are bought and owned by the operators but have to meet TFLs specifications.

Okay there's routes that don't really require double deckers but the buses that operate on these routes also operate on routes that do require double deckers and anyway GAIs single decker routes often get double deckers operating on them so it's not like their strictly single deck only.

The other issue is parts much cheaper and more efficient to have one bus type from the same manufacturer than have multiple bus types from different manufacturers. Although this depends on operator and how maintenance is done I believe Dublin Bus keep a large inventory of parts where GAI order parts when needed.could be some of the reason for GAIs current maintenance issues.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123406555#Comment_123406555

The other thing is the Streetlites are probably one worst bus types to ever operate in Dublin in recent history. Horrible buses to be travel on and the drivers all seem to hate them. Noisy, cramped and uncomfortable also very awkward for wheelchairs due to the narrow gangway.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123406676#Comment_123406676

I thought it was about providing a decent public service not saving money. If it's all about saving money why not buy single door double deckers rather dual door buses single door buses are cheaper than dual doored buses. Btw I'm not advocating for single door buses in fact the opposite I'm just saying their cheaper than dual door buses.

Not so much about "saving money", but more about not wasting it. The NTA is given only so much budget from the government to spend on public transport, they have to pick and choose which projects to allocate it on.

So lets say they spend extra money on all double deckers for GAI, the capacity which then never gets used. But now they have less money to say replace the single decker buses in Cork city that are still used on much busier routes.

Spend the money on DD's for GAI or buy more mini buses for expanding local link services around the country.

Now the public has a worse public service because you gold plated the GAI fleet in a way that almost never gets used.

I don't agree with the model of having the NTA buy the buses directly. It would be imo if the NTA provide the funding and decide on the spec but let the operators themselves pick the actual model bus they want to suit their needs. This is how it works in London the buses are bought and owned by the operators but have to meet TFLs specifications.

Actually London is a hybrid model, while most buses are owned by the operators, over 1,000 of them are actually owned directly by TFL and lent out to the operators, just like the NTA.

Actually TFL's directly owned fleet is larger then the NTA's

Frankly Ireland is too small for multiple operators making their own small orders of buses, by the NTA polling the resources, they can make larger single orders and get a level of scale and deals that small orders wouldn't get. In other words, it would be even more costly for 3 or 4 separate smaller orders then one big order.

Even then we just barely compete. The NTA framework for the Electroliners is 800, meanwhile over in the UK GA have just ordered 1,200 of the same bus!

Okay there's routes that don't really require double deckers but the buses that operate on these routes also operate on routes that do require double deckers and anyway GAIs single decker routes often get double deckers operating on them so it's not like their strictly single deck only.

Often? I certainly haven't seen it happen often and it certainly isn't reported as such here.

The other issue is parts much cheaper and more efficient to have one bus type from the same manufacturer than have multiple bus types from different manufacturers. Although this depends on operator and how maintenance is done I believe Dublin Bus keep a large inventory of parts where GAI order parts when needed.could be some of the reason for GAIs current maintenance issues.

But that goes against what you were just saying two paragraphs ago, about leaving bus purchases to operators! If you did that you would end up with different operators with potentially different models and fleets and more parts problems.

Since the NTA took over purchasing things have become far more consistent, with far less fleet types then the DB days where they seemed to buy a new model type almost every other year!

But not just DB, the NTA also buys the same buses for GAI and more significantly BE city services now too.

The SG's massively dominate the fleet now and the GT's are pretty similar, all NTA purchases. It looks like the Electroliners will be as big as the SG and maybe even surpass that.

It feels like we are heading to a consistency of Electroliner for DD fleets, while the Enviro200EV's for the single deckers. Two different fleet types, but very high level of consistency within the different form factor.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not crazy about the streetlites as a bus or their single door. The Enviro200EV seems to be a step in the right direction, though perhaps not perfect either. I'm more talking about the general concept that it is okay to have some single deckers.

mikeybhoy

Anyone notice on the E1 the driver handovers are gone very slow at Donnybrook compared to the 46a/145/155. Drivers don't seem to be at the stop ready to handover straight away. Probably a scheduling issue.

dublinman1990

I don't think the NTA or the Government could tolerate Dublin Bus & GAI cutting down bus routes to cut costs when climate change is at a more pronounced stage around the globe now.

Although I do know that BusConnects did initally offer some reduced services to passengers within the redesigned bus network in GDA. The level of cuts in BusConnects is not that drastic as what Dublin Bus did with implementing Network Direct back in 2009. The service levels for BusConnects does fit into the methodology for complying with the Government's Climate Action Plan. And the levels of services overtime would be increased again when newer PT infrastructure projects like Dart+, Metrolink & expanded Luas services are being built & opened right across the capital over the next few years.

Although there has been some scope to provide newer or expanded services that were not covered in the various stages of public consultations throughout the BusConnects programme. Two of those improvements that come to mind would be the introduction of the L55 that was introduced during the rollout of the S routes in 2023, the L14 being extended from Palermo to Brides Glen Luas which will happen later this summer & providing an extension for the upcoming L35 to Balally Luas Station. Offering these extensions to these bus routes doesn't mean that buses will have to be cut now when passengers would have the opportunity to use these services. There is a demand out there who now have the opportunity to use these bus routes to carry out their daily business throughout the working week. Once there is a demand out there; it will never stop growing until there is a point in time until is a opportunity to provide more transport services to meet that extra demand.

A2000

https://irishcycle.com/2025/05/04/watering-down-of-bus-priority-in-west-dublin-betrayal-of-promises-made-and-makes-mockery-of-fundamentals-of-busconnects/

hfjm20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123419341#Comment_123419341

Can’t believe the locals are rallying to save some roundabout (4 years after the consultation!) The new design for the junction is confusing and dangerous, don’t know why the NTA have caved.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123419505#Comment_123419505

I don't think that there is much rallying in ballyfermot for a roundabout. It looks like a 1 woman show as far as I can tell. Most people seem agnostic at best with a large number who hate the current roundabout because it's such an obstacle to reach the main street, takes 10 mins to walk around.

hfjm20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123419792#Comment_123419792

Is that not the whole basis of their protest - the removal of the roundabout?

BusGuy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123406683#Comment_123406683

They are not, mostly because the fact that its not just about bridges, if GAI had a 100% full 115/116/119 fleet, maintenance checks would take longer to complete due to their size.

Bobby42

I find it curious that they’ve decided that the roundabout is the centre of the Ballyfermot community and is therefore untouchable, but not markievicz park where all local gaa and soccer matches are played?

If you look through the local Ballyfermot facebook groups they’re full of “ballyfermot says no to the nta”… not only are they opposed to any changes, they want traffic lights, bus lanes, and speed bumps removed. They are also opposed to 15 minute cities and are organising protests at empty industrial units because a light was left on so that means 600 unvetted men are being moved in tomorrow.

Honestly it’ll take another generation to get these changes through. Depressing.

Cookie_Monster

How are traffic lights better than a roundabout though?

Just look at the disaster that is the main junction in Cherrywood these days after the change…

McGrath5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123430889#Comment_123430889

How exactly is the main Cherrywood junction a "disaster"? I go through it everyday on my commute and it rarely ever takes more than 1 or 2 light cycles.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123430889#Comment_123430889

safer and more convenient. Roundabouts promote higher speeds, longer journey times for peds and less safety for cycling and peds

Taisteal Éireann

A good number of bus stops have been renamed recently, some for standardisation. Some examples I've noticed included:

47 - Drumcondra Station → Archbishop's House

48 - Fitzroy Avenue → Drumcondra Station

186 - Lindsay Grove → Hart's Corner

1074 - Harcourt Luas → Harcourt Street

1305 & 1330 - Willbrook Road → Grange Road North

1329 - St Mary's School → Rathfarnham Wood

1331 - Rathfarnham Road → Rathfarnham Castle

1506 - Finglas Road → Hart's Corner

Fizzy Duck

https://www.dublinbus.ie/news/route-change-on-route-n4

Revised routing for the N4 from May 25th.

madnessnmayhem

Why is it changing route direction?

LXFlyer

That’s the route that it was supposed to take per BusConnects, but the traffic lights that will facilitate buses turning onto Snugborough Road from the northern end of Waterville Road have only been installed recently.

TonyK45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123444178#Comment_123444178

So maybe, we'll also get a fix for the S8 in Blackrock!!

hfjm20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123447523#Comment_123447523

Yeah that’s a bit ridiculous. Surely a bus only right turn at that junction could solve it

Gold7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123447710#Comment_123447710

True, but with Temple Hill right beside the junction it makes it difficult for a right turn for the S8.

LXFlyer

Kimmage CBC approved by ABP.

That’s all 12 out of there now.

https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/317660