BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123388434#Comment_123388434

You want something clunky, over-complicated and massively prone to failure? It also isn't what anyone, ever, other than you meant when they said "integrated ticketing"!

Contactless card payment operating the same as Leap does will come, eventually; but that's not related to BusConnects nor does it reduce what we already have. We have an integrated ticketing system.

bk

I've actually just come across a very interesting document about the Next Gen Ticketing (NGT), the Final Business Case for the Greater Dublin Area Next Gen Ticketing.

The highlights are, apparently the NGT will come in two phases:

• Phase 1 - NGT Busconnects Dublin, which will apply only to Dublin Bus and GAI city service
• Phase 2 - NGT GDA, which will extend it to Luas, Dart, Commuter rail and bus services in the GDA

It doesn't cover it but I'd assume there would be subsequent projects to roll it out to the rest of the country.

The document confirms mostly what we know about the project. Account Based Ticketing (ABT) which means you can pay with contactless bank cards, apple/Google pay, QR codes and tokens (think Leap cards).

Not surprisingly it will require new ticket machines on the buses. Apparently the old ticket machines are becoming increasingly expensive to maintain, update and are see very high failure levels.

There is also this very interesting tidbit included, which confirms there are plans a foot to see far more Luas lines in the city an existing routes:

There are also plans for an expansion of the current Luas light rail system across Dublin.
This expansion would include an extension of existing lines coupled with the upgrading of
existing carriages to accommodate higher passenger capacity.

Doc here:

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/NGT-GDA-Final-Business-Case.pdf

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123388284#Comment_123388284

and this means that adding additional services isn’t as straightforward as some seem to think it is.

I think you have just managed to describe a large chunk of the backlash towards not only the Luas, but every active PT improvement programme. It really makes me think of all the things said about the Quays bus gates, and now I am hearing similar things about the pedestrianisation of Parliament Street which I think is completely insane.

I completely understand why the GL is the way it is, I don't buy into the idea that they are simply hiding the extra services to keep the trams as packed as possible. Mainly it is just a nonsense conspiracy. I think it is more environmental factors limiting it, too many crossing, no turnbacks on the Sandyford-Charlemont section for high frequency operation, etc. I am hoping that sooner than later we will see more concrete plans for 30tph. All that said I am going to have to try your suggestion next time I am taking it during the morning rush.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123389093#Comment_123389093

It doesn't cover it but I'd assume there would be subsequent projects to roll it out to the rest of the country.

Reading through the document, it sounds like Phase 1 and 2 are the stress tests for the NGT systems, and that future projects/phases rolling out the system to other cities would follow this. However based on this report NGT - GDA is expected to finish sometime in 2027, with a consultation in 2027 Q3 to work out any final bugs.

If they choose only to roll out NGT to the other services (especially other city and town networks) after that, my guess would be it would start sometime in 2028, maybe even Q1. However that is me assuming they begin the infrastructure rollout sometime in 2027. If they only begin the infrastructure rollout after the consultaiton, I doubt the NGT would be in place before 2029.

We will hopefully find out their plans when the finalised timeline is published in the coming months. However, I would be surprised if they are willing to wait until 2028 or 2029 for further NGT rollout, at least for the other new BC networks.

p_haugh

The southern orbital routes have been great for myself. My commute to work (Stillorgan area→Naas Road) previously involved needing to get a 46a, 145 etc into Appian Way to change to an 18. The first bus would regularly be full in the morning peak, and then the 18 would more often than not be massively delayed or even cancelled. Thankfully, I had a back-up of continuing into town to then get a 151 back out, but it wasn't ideal and added 20-30 minutes to my commute.

My commute now involves the S6 to UCD then the S4 from there as far as the Naas Road. Still takes just over an hour but is a lot more pleasant as I am effectively going against the commuter flow for most of my trip - the S6 would only have a handful of people on it, and more often than not I am the only passenger on the S4 when it leaves the terminus in UCD. The S4 being every 10 minutes also means I don't have to wait long if I missed a departure.

dfx-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123388829#Comment_123388829

My claim actually was that they are not treated equally and I don't see how inserted services not obvious to passengers or where timetables have not changed and increased Sunday services during Covid proves anything contrary.

Perhaps a 10% increase on minimal changes indicates the boom in numbers even more so.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123389328#Comment_123389328

Agree - the s4 and s6 have been great for increased connectivity between places

Daith

The O route will be popular and that's definitely the one I hope gets operational this year

Gold7

The S6 and S8 have been a big game changer for me going to and from matches in Tallaght Stadium. Before it used to be the 75 that went everywhere and took nearly 2 hours sometimes. I also used to have to get a DART into Town and then get on a busy Luas to get out to Tallaght. Now the S8 only takes me just over an hour going from Dun Laoghaire and back. The S8 is also a lot better and more direct than what the old 75 used to be like.

BeerNut

Same for me with the S2. Kimmage doesn't do rail, but now there's single route linking it to DART, Heuston and both Luas lines. It's a massive improvement on the old 18.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123388989#Comment_123388989

I've taken a bit of time to reply to this as you raised multiple points and I wanted to gather my thoughts.

We all know about the congestion - but to be honest with you, we are where we are, and constantly going on about the slow pace of implementation of the infrastructure (which I agree it certainly is) isn't going to change that. Two corridors are out to tender and work is going to start happening on them this year in Q4. As for the JRs, well they may or may not succeed. That's in the lap of the judicial system and none of us can do anything about that. That's a Constitutional right, and you have to just let that process happen (no matter how frustrating it is for all of us).

Unfortunately, you are going to have to just accept that things just don't happen in the public sector as quickly as any of us would like - otherwise you're just going to get constantly upset. I want change to happen as quickly as you do, but I've long since realised that speed of delivery just doesn't happen, and as such I've just become more realistic about when things will be delivered - I work on the basis of "it'll happen when it happens".

As to the timeframe, I went to the one of the early consultations about the network back in 2018 (btw it was 2018 when the first plans were published - 2017 was a daft survey that wasn't worth the paper it was written on).

It was made abundantly clear to me at that consultation that the infrastructure was going to be a 10 year + project. Allowing for the delays associated with Covid, and the subsequent staffing crisis at ABP, I'm suggesting that this is a 15 year project. Once any project involves CPOs then they are going to take longer - that's just a fact of life. Look at how long many of the new roads took to deliver from inception - it was never a quick process. There are enough corridors outside JR to keep the process moving for the next few years - Tallaght/Clondalkin will be one of those which will benefit SW Dublin.

Unfortunately, much of that area is served by radial bus routes that use corridors that pass through areas (Kimmage, Terenure and Rathgar) where there was far more discontent about the plans, and there really isn't anything that can be done about that. You have to just let the judicial process run its course.

All that being said, there is still scope for improvements outside of the BusConnects process on roads that are outside the BusConnects CBCs, and, as I learnt from reading SDCC council minutes recently, as part of the ongoing works creating the new cycle route along Kilinniny Road there will be an eastbound bus lane added approaching Ballycullen Road which will directly benefit the S8 at one of the worst pinch points on the route.

As for the app, well it is now a single app for all operators - not just Dublin Bus. Given that more routes will be operated by GAI over the coming years, a single multi-operator app is essential.

To be honest, the issues aren't really with the app, but rather with the systems driving the data, which unfortunately are roughly 15 years old now and out of date.

There is a new all operator AVLC system being developed which will be implemented in the next couple of years - that should see a big improvement in the quality of the data.

FYI there are two main problems with the current system:

1. Cancelled buses not being shown as such - that's down to human error - it does require a controller to manually remove a bus from the system - that doesn't always happen
2. When a driver signs in on their ticket machine, the system can take some time to register the bus - that means you'll have buses physically appearing which aren't shown as live on the app - that applies when a driver has brought a bus to a terminus from the garage, or where there's a driver change en route.

Personally, I use the "Transit" app most of the time - it has a much better user interface and you can physically see where the buses are (subject to problem 2 above).

Also, https://www.bustimes.org is a tremendous resource - it's the one place where you can see a full timetable for all routes, regardless of operator, and see where buses physically are.

I'll be honest, the complaint about lack in improvements in SW Dublin is a tad daft, given that the network is phased by spines, and that CBCs will be implemented on a corridor-by-corridor basis - that inevitably means that some areas will get improvements before others. The next two phases of the network (F-Spine and D-Spine) will directly affect SW Dublin.

SW Dublin has certainly received improvements in the meantime. It has benefitted from the higher frequencies and increased connectivity of the S6, S8, W2, W4 and W6 bus routes over what was there before, plus the S2, S4, 74 and L25 (by way of connections). I think that you do maybe need to use the bus more and become aware of them. You can now get to far more places than ever before and more frequently. Parts of Clondalkin have also benefitted from the new G1 and 60 routes.

Ballyboden has the 74 as well as the 15b heading to the city centre so I would certainly suggest that capacity is not quite the issue you suggest. The 74 is also likely to see a frequency increase in the next month or two. It benefits from pretty much constantly moving (apart from on the approach to Terenure from Terenure Road West outbound) all along the route, while also connecting with LUAS at Dundrum.

Many of the people you see on the 15b may be connecting with the S6 on Butterfield Avenue to get to UCD, or with the S4 at Rathgar and the S2 at Rathmines - the reality is that many people now use multiple bus routes to connect to get to their destination, and aren't staying on board all the way to the city - that frees seats up further in.

I would certainly argue that the 15 frequency is on a par with the E2 - it's a 24 hour route operating every 10-15 mins off-peak and far more frequently at peak. What more do you want?

This is a massive project which is going to take significant time to deliver across all of the headings - and I do really think that you're focussing on one element while ignoring others. I'd certainly argue that the addition of all of the new orbital and local routes (with their increased coverage and frequency) is the critical element. The infrastructure will deliver journey time improvements, but the ability to make journeys in the first place is far more important.

Others have commented on your assertion that there is no integrated ticketing. I absolutely agree with them - what you're talking about is nothing to do with integrated ticketing, but it will happen as part of the ongoing next generation ticketing project which is being rolled out on a national basis - that's a massive undertaking and it's going to take time.

If I was to make one suggestion to you, it is to maybe go and try out some of the new orbital routes for yourself sometime and see the numbers of people using them and more importantly connecting with other services - it's not that difficult to do from your area. I think that then you will realise that the progress so far has been a success, which the CBCs as they are delivered will only improve upon.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123389569#Comment_123389569

You did suggest that non-BC routes hadn't received new timetables, and you stated "very little happens to your route to attract passengers or solve problems".

That implication and statement simply are not true. There were multiple non-BC routes improved during Covid (mainly off-peak daytime and Sunday frequency increases), and there have been multiple new rosters (involving more buses where necessary) to solve reliability problems on non-BC routes.

Of course the focus is on BC routes - that's the current funding programme from government. You have to have a plan rather than a scattergun approach. Service expansions don't appear out of thin air - they have to be funded. It's not happening as fast as most of us would like (although I appreciate that you'd prefer that it didn't happen at all), but that's down to driver recruitment issues and also bus availability which is dependent on more charging facilities becoming available.

Implementing 24 hour services on other routes means diverting funding and staff from the BC programme and delaying it even further. We need to get that finished ASAP, whilst at the same time addressing reliability on non-BC issues where required - the 83/a and 150 for example both recently benefitted from new rosters that increased the drivers and buses on the routes to deliver a more reliable service.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123389261#Comment_123389261

Yes, the really big phase, is the first phase, as that sets the foundation for all future phases.

My understanding is that they are going to replace the entire current leap backend systems with this new system. That means new cloud based architecture, systems, new processes, vendors, accounting, etc. From a customer perspective it likely means a new “leap” website and app to interact with (they may well use the existing domains, etc. but the actual usage would change).

These same systems, vendors, websites/apps and processes would then be the basis for it being rolled out to other cities. Reuse all this same infrastructure just scaled up where needed.

Of course you also need to install new ticket machines in all 1,300+ city buses in Dublin.

And finally you have to promote this new system to people and get them using it, advertising, promotion, etc.

Phase 2 would then build on this same backend systems, but extending it to Luas, rail and commuter buses. New or updated validators on the Irish rail gates, Luas validators, TVM’s, ticket checker machines, etc. Plus adding the rail fares to the backend systems and making sure multimodal operation with the 90minute ticket, capping etc. works well.

For the other cities, it would just be building on phase 1 and 2 above, for BE city buses services, just use the same new ticket machines as Dublin is getting in phase 1. For the likes of Commuter rail in Cork (and hopefully future Cork Luas) just use the same updated gate validators as rolled out in phase 2 for DART in Dublin.

I’m hoping we will start to see the rollout of phase 1 to buses in Dublin in the next year.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123389093#Comment_123389093

Hmmm.... I didn't realise that they were doing it like this, seems to create some problems. How are they going to do the 90 minute fare? You get on a bus with the new system, and then swap into a Luas or train, with no way of them validating your ticket?

There's no way to do this upgrade seamlessly, but this seems like an awkward way to do it.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123391385#Comment_123391385

I thought the same myself. Here is my guess:

A few years ago they gave a presentation on how this might work. Basically during a transition period there will be two validators on the pole at the right hand side of the bus. The existing Leap card one and a new validator.

During this period, I assume if you want to use multimode and capping across bus/luas/dart you continue to use your old leap card with the existing leap card validators on the bus during the transition period.

If you are only using buses, then you have the option of using your phone with the new validators on the bus.

Once dart/luas are also transferred over, they remove the old validator.

Possibly they could allow you to buy a 90 minute paper ticket from Luas/DART TVM's that would work both on LUAS/DART and the new validators on the bus, but I'm not sure they will bother with this. I can go into details on how that might work if people are interested.

It isn't ideal, but I don't think it would be the end of the world either.

The alternative is that they delay the rollout of it on buses until Luas/DART/etc. are ready too. I think however that would be a worse outcome.

Daith

We're not going to have two different validators on the right hand side and the ability to pay at the driver? That's going to cause some annoying delays.

Would the new validators not just handle leap as well?

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123391537#Comment_123391537

This makes the most sense. Having two validators would be a bit annoying but I think its the best option they realisitcally have.

In addition to what you say, it would allow for DB to still operate if the NGT system is down. That might sound a bit dramatic but being the stress test, this is where the nasty software bugs come out, and there is the potential for something to pop up that means the NGT might have to be turned off-line for a couple of days.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123391667#Comment_123391667

There was originally two different validators when Leap was first rolled out and Dublin Bus had the old style passes that were printed on.

dublinman1990

I had seen a little blunder occurring on one of Go-Ahead's routes today. I was walking up to get some groceries in Dunnes at the Playwright in Newtownpark Avenue today. Before I walked towards the steps to go into the supermarket; I'd seen an SG bus presumably going on the 114 route from Blackrock Dart Station to Ticknock with the wrong route number & destination displayed on it. The bus had passengers inside it while the route was displaying the L26 route to Kilternan on it. I would assume the driver will get into trouble for it from staff working in Go-Ahead Ireland's depot in the Ballymount depot later on this evening.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123391667#Comment_123391667

Leap cards use a proprietary standard called Mifare, which requires special dedicated readers, encryption, etc. The Next Gen Ticketing on the other hand will use NFC, which is an open standard protocol supported by many companies.

Now I just checked and yes, it looks like the manufactures of Mifare card, NXP make new readers that are compatible with both Mifare and NFC, but then you would be locking yourself into just buying that companies readers, rather then dozens of companies who make NFC readers.

Also, even if you went with NXP readers, they still would need to be coded up to support Leap.

A lot of extra cost and trouble for a temporary period.

Tarabuses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123391827#Comment_123391827

Are you sure it wasn't the L26 which had missed the turn at Fleurville and was trying to get back on route?

dublinman1990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123394959#Comment_123394959

I'm giving you some more details here about what happened on Saturday.

When the bus going from Blackrock was standing there at the traffic lights outside the playwright. The driver in the bus was indicating to do a right turn at the lights to go up towards Whites Cross which is the served by the S8 & 114 route. This sighting took place between the hours of 4:30pm & 5pm on Saturday afternoon. It was a very odd thing to see out on my road because the L26 never goes past the Playwright at all when operating on it's route between Blackrock & Kilternan.

The driver of the bus was also a foreign national. He appeared to come from Africa or something. I dread to think that he may have gotten lost while driving his route with his bus full of passengers on that particular day. When I arrived back home from Dunnes at around 5:10pm; I'd seen another L26 going past the house going along it's normal route through Annaville Terrace, Rowanbyrn while making it's way up towards Deansgrange.

I also looked up Go-Ahead Ireland's website on my laptop to see if there was any diversions posted for the L26 route. And there was no news of diversions posted for that route on their website. However there were 5 ODMA service updates uploaded on the website which were for their local BC routes that serve Bray & for the 59 bus. And there were also some service updates posted for their DCOM routes which are the older routes that were from Bus Eireann's network.

I didn't look up Bustimes.org to see whether that L26 bus was cancelled after it went the wrong way along the 114 route. Was it officially cancelled or was the bus in question still in service for the remainder of it's shift?

john boye

Always with the vital updates

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123396298#Comment_123396298

Looks like the driver defaulted to the 114 before realising and heading back to Deansgrange (via Kill Lane), the bus in question was switching between the S6, L26 and the 114 for most of the day.

transfer90

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2025/04/22/bus-group-go-ahead-seeks-permission-for-ballycoolin-depot-to-deliver-new-nta-contract/

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123396298#Comment_123396298

About 10 years ago I was on a 123 where the driver took the wrong exit on one of the roundabouts between Griffith Avenue and Philipsburgh Avenue. Some of the passengers helped him get back on track, he said he was new to the route.

LXFlyer

Drivers are human and can make mistakes, like any of us. It was a minor error.

Frankly going to the lengths of posting this stuff online in such detail is bizarre in the extreme.

dublinman1990

I do understand that drivers are human who are prone to making mistakes. It's the first time that I've seen that situation occur in my local area in Dublin. Although there could be a few reasons why the driver did this in the first place. It might have made some sense if the driver was given notice by radio control to take a diversion on the route due to unforeseen circumstances. I won't lose sleep over it; but it's still a unusual thing for me to observe at that time of the day.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123396987#Comment_123396987

Could the N8 route operate as a 24 hour route from the Ballycoolin depot in the near future? Could there be a possibility here to swap the operation of the W4 from Ballymount to Ballycoolin to make that route go into 24 hour operation as well.

Midnight_EG

'I do understand that drivers are human and prone to making mistakes'

Why'd you mention he was foreign then of possibly African descent?

It was an accident, move on and forget about it

mikeybhoy

I passed an S8 on the m50 one day with passengers on