BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

jd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123045186#Comment_123045186

My concern about the 19 going through City Center and on to Airport is that some services may be fully loaded and people may not be able to use it for neighbourhood to neighbour travel sometimes (say Dorset Street to Wadelai/DCU) It'll be interesting to see how things work out with it.

MacDriver

Would it not be better if they just extended 11 from Wadelai to the Airport? So it would be 11: Airport - Sandyford and they could perhaps have a base frequency of 15 minutes and keep the additional departures in the morning. As for the 13 extend it to Phoneix Park instead , as it already is high frequency so people on NCR won't be missing out too much with 12 minutes peak and 15 off peak. I have no idea why they want to mess around with the 11 as the replacement of a high frequency route on the NCR when 13 is fit for the job!! As for 46A if SOMEHOW it still stays with E spine (due to petitions and uncertainty etc), maybe reduce its frequency to 20/30 minutes base so that and the 13 still provide that similar frequency on NCR.

TLDR: Incorporate 19's route into 11 (15 mins base) (Airport - Sandyford)

Reroute 13 to Phoenix Park (Grange Castle - Phoneix Park)

Reduce 46A frequency to 20/30 mins (Assuming it stays with E-spine)

Arhanedus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046259#Comment_123046259

I don't see that being much of a problem personally. Some people will take the 16 or 41 (or future A spine) to the airport instead, and also, as far as I understand, there are peak time workings which only go to/from Wadelai, which therefore would be used by local residents rather than people travelling to the airport.

But I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what happens…

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046278#Comment_123046278

None of that is going to happen.
We have to move on from this sort of crayonism.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044571#Comment_123044571

Yes, you're probably right about the E2.

The 19 is trickier as it does impact on resources, but so be it. It delivers the connectivity that was missing and means that the 19 can continue the “sweeper” role that the 11 and 13 play through Drumcondra in a meaningful manner.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046259#Comment_123046259

I really doubt that the 19 will become jammed with airport customers from the city or v.v. given its elongated route.

To be fair the 16 and 41 both manage to carry passengers most of the time without leaving people behind (leaving aside the night time issues at the weekends).

It will however start much earlier than the 16 does which should see the early departures being well used.

I suspect it will be used more by local airport customers along the E Spine in Ballymun.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046166#Comment_123046166

The W6 is an important outer orbital - playing around with it as you’re suggesting would ruin what it’s doing.

The L56 maintains the historic linkage between Newcastle and Clondalkin.

Newcastle residents now have far better connectivity with the W6 linking with the C4 in Celbridge, Trains at Hazelhatch and Maynooth (which will improve as DART+ rolls out), and LUAS at Saggart and Tallaght.

I’m sure that if demand warranted it, the L56 could also increase frequency - but that would require more buses and staff.

The X56 will maintain a peak hour direct service to/from the city centre.

Daith

Sorry but Wadelai residents now have a direct connection to Merrion Sq and the Airport. The 24 hour E spine isn't that far away from them, nor is the N4 really.

They'll also have some peak bus services starting in their actual estate.

They're now in an exceptionally good place bus service wise and anything else is really sounding like they need a private bus service not a public service.

Reversal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046492#Comment_123046492

Yes more options for people in Newcastle and that undoubtedly positive. But the loss of a direct route to the CC is a big loss.

In an ideal world connections are fine. But after keeping an eye on it since November, the reality is that since the W6 has been implemented with connections to Rail/Luas/C spine, it hasn't offered any improvement in journey times to the city centre.

Due to infrequency, all these options most often offer journey times that are far longer than the direct bus service. Add that to the requirement for long changes in places with no shelters, and the additional planning burden of infrequent connections, it can't be denied that Newcastle to CC commuters will have had a downgrade in service once the the D spine launches. Also, a complete loss of any late night service if the 69n gets the chop.

Big improvements in other respects yes, but the main category of commuter will have a longer and more difficult commute to the CC centre. Also, when BC was planned, Newcastle had a population of 3000, but the time the D spine rolls out, it'll be somewhere between 6-7000.

Daith

I would genuinely suggest if you feel you're losing a better service with the planned BusConnects services, the best action is to organize and contact local politicians to get support.

As we've recently seen, nothing is set in stone here.

I might sound bitter around the Save the 19 campaign at times, but it was very effective.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046562#Comment_123046562

I really wish you’d realise that the 19 serves a far bigger purpose than just Wadelai.

It serves the northern half of Poppintree and plays a key role in Drumcondra by acting as the “sweeper” route there (replacing the 11), acting as a capacity booster when other routes are full.

Go out onto Drumcondra Road inbound during the morning peak and you’ll see how important those buses are.

Daith

The only reason they have services starting in their estate was because at those Save the 19 meetings and in the press, they felt the 19 would be too full with people from the Airport by the time it got to their estate.

When I saw posts wondering if the reverse is true and it'll be full by the time it hits Dorset St or whatever, I was just pointing out how well served those particular residents are. And they are.

I really wish you'd stop getting this defensive every time I mention the 19. In no way was I suggesting these services be stopped, just they have lots of options.

VG31

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046485#Comment_123046485

I agree, I really doubt the 19 will be full due to airport demand.

The 16 and 41 are rarely completely full in my experience. I take them both frequently, particularly the latter. The 41 does have the slight advantage of not saying "airport" on the front and not being quite as well known with tourists. You don't really get many airport passengers on the 41. It's mostly staff.

I can't see many people taking the 19 from the city centre to the airport. It will be even slower than the 16. Maybe some tourists waiting for the 16 might take it at stops they both share in the city centre or Drumcondra. It's unlikely anyone using Google Maps or any other journey planner will pick it.

Daith

And on the very slim chance the 19 becomes the main Airport bus, it would surely be just proving a demand for the service and the NTA should acknowledge it.

It's not going to happen of course.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046771#Comment_123046771

I’m not being defensive about anything.

I am passionate about the bus service and I certainly will never apologise about that to you or anyone else.

I’m expressing my opinion that the NTA got it wrong in the first place, and have now finally got it right. I made that point at the very outset back six years ago. Having seen them get things wrong in the past (and Dublin Bus before them), I don’t want to see the same mistakes happen all over again.

Once people lose a service it is extremely difficult to get it back.

I do happen to think that a lot of people don’t realise the multiple roles that the 19 will play and getting the frequency and route correct is important. The people complaining were not just in Wadelai, they were complaining all along the route and in Drumcondra too. I just think that to focus on one estate is missing the point of the route.

Daith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046840#Comment_123046840

I didn't even mention the 19 directly in that post. I was talking about the Wadeli area and the bus services there.

And you came out with how important the 19 is despite me not saying anything otherwise!

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046594#Comment_123046594

I take your point about the direct link to the city, and you really ought to push that with local politicians over the coming months (it would help improve the frequency along Tyrconnell Road too which is another location where people are unhappy). It is an anomaly and should still retain at least an hourly service.

But I find it a bit difficult to believe that the W6 and train combination via Hazelhatch (where there certainly are shelters) during the peak hours is slower than the 68, given that it has to crawl along the SCR?

It should be reasonably easy to plan such journeys given that the W6 and trains run to a full timetable, and the positive is that the rail service is only going to get better over the next few years.

Reversal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046863#Comment_123046863

Look maybe I've been unlucky but the times I've used the W6 / train connection, the wait time between them has been 20 minutes or so. That's what's making the journey time so long. It seems you always just miss the previous W6 on the way home, on the way in you have to take the 20+ min wait because the next W6 won't make the train departure.

Obviously improved frequency with DART SW and maybe a 15/20 minute W6 frequency by then will make it an excellent service overall. At that point you could absolutely ditch the direct bus to CC.

The Mathematician

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046863#Comment_123046863

While overall I think the BusConnects plan is very good, I do think there is a real problem with changing to an infrequent service out of town, especially late at night. The last thing you want after a night out is the stress of missing your connection and then be left waiting for maybe an hour, or even be stranded, when it might also be hard to get a taxi. Perhaps consideration might be given to also running a direct last service, or to introduce connections, where the bus waits for a connecting service if it is late.

Daith

You can plan connecting journeys based on timetables sure, but you just need a delayed bus, Luas or train and in those cases, a direct but slower service can be faster.

The connection piece is still multiple different services all doing their own thing, rather than feeling like a cohesive service.

Trains from the Docklands arriving to Broombridge a minute after the 40e is scheduled to depart is one my annoyances. Why couldn't the 40e depart slightly later? Doesn't require any new staff it's like that for years.

Likewise I got the N2 to Broombridge but a change of driver at Ballyboggan road who was delayed meant I would have missed the train. It happens, I was unlucky, but it's a pain.

I don't count the 40e as part of BusConnects really, and when it works, it's much faster than the 40 for me, but I wouldn't judge the service based on the proposed timetables

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046733#Comment_123046733

You can hardly describe the 19 as a key sweeper route for Drumcondra. Between 730am and 9am, Drumcondra will lose 14-15x bus services (between routes 11 and 13), only to be replaced by 5-6x services on route 19.

Currently there are 22-23x cross-city services between 730am and 9am, which will be reduced to 7x (routes 16 and 44).

A massive downgrade in service for Drumcondra and Dorset Street.

BusGuy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123047095#Comment_123047095

Look, that is only a weekday service, take a look at a Sunday, barely any buses go through UCD at 6pm.

BusGuy

GAI have to be responsible for all the delay's they've had over the years…

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123047005#Comment_123047005

I get that. Once connections come into play especially with lower frequencies, it can be tricky.

That’s where maybe the journey planner might help - just allow enough time in the advanced settings for the walk to/from the bus at Hazelhatch.

But do get on to the TDs and Councillors.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123047095#Comment_123047095

I’m making the point really about what the 11 does right now, and the 19 will be as its direct replacement.

The point I was making that the 19 serves multiple areas and keeping the frequency is really important.

I completely agree about the reduction along Drumcondra, but imagine what it would have been like if the 19 hadn’t been increased!

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123047042#Comment_123047042

I’ve severe misgivings about that myself - the same applies to the 33 and 65 replacements.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123047073#Comment_123047073

Absolutely and you’re right.

I was thinking more so of the train which does have published timetables, while the LUAS doesn’t unless you really search for them.

Trying to judge what time to catch a tram to connect into a lower frequency service is a challenge at the best of times!

dfx-

What about off peak? The 68 is half-full outbound in Clondalkin at 8pm. What if you board on say Camden St - you're expected to get to Heuston, then a train then the W6? What is the ease of that journey? As someone who 'could' commute with the L58 and Hazelhatch and extensive public transport user, it does not come across as a very connection friendly station.

The key point was made a few posts back and encourages and encompasses a lot of the 'crayonism'. The populations served by the 68, even aside from the 122 and 13 and SCR overlaps, has ballooned since the die was cast in the mid 2010s. The idea stems back to the old 68 being cut too in 2010.

You can see in this thread anyone who comes up with new options or groups who 'protest' are treated with disdain or to just get on with the change.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123047587#Comment_123047587

With respect - the NTA have decided the network - the basics can be tweaked but expecting the likes of the 46a to continue alongside the E1 and E2 is farcical - that was the post that I described as crayonism in my post above. The routes are being implemented in two weeks time - do you seriously think that they’re going to suddenly change them all again in that timeframe?

The 68 has only served Camden St since the old 19 was removed - it’s not exactly cast in stone.

With a new network the routings will change, you can’t expect everything to stay the same.

I already made the point that the likes of Newcastle should retain a direct bus to/from the city.

For the record, I’ve already lost direct connections to some places with the new orbitals, but gained direct connections elsewhere, and my cross-city commute will require a change when the relevant phase happens, so I’m not exactly commenting without having experienced change myself.

oliver_murray

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123047005#Comment_123047005

Ive had the same issue yeah, the trains dont align well with the bus times. at 7.15 from Newcastle you could get to the CC within 50 mins but the bus ends up being late so you miss the connecting train. luckily the 69n should be retained anyways since most of the end of the route isn't getting 24/hr service. I understand why they would remove the direct connection to the city as there is issues with say SCR, however surely the route can be rerouted to somewhere with better bus priority and possibly higher density/population along the route to at least provide a faster service and to make it more viable. Local politicians have tried to talk to NTA about the loss of direct connection but not much has happened about it.