BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

Stephen15

bebeman wrote: »

What you take about is not a extra bus.
It is a replacement for a bus that broke down.

A extra bus is one that would be put on to provide EXTRA capacity for the likes of a concert/match. In other words the 4/7 routes can cope with normal loading , but when a concert/match is on at landsdown road, DB cannot put on a EXTRA bus to help without the permission of the NTA.
This permission must be applied for well in advance, and is not always given.
Now when we have a surprise increase in demand, like when the DART goes down, DB are not allowed to put on extra 4/7 route buses to carry the extra loading, EXTRA buses need the permission of The NTA, which must be applied for in advance.

What I was talking about is DB taking an extra bus of the depot to operate a timetabled service Eg. A 75 coming from The Square to DL gets held up in bad traffic and is due to operate the 16:30 outbound service from DL but now can't due to the fact it's held in traffic. In this scenario can DB send an extra bus to operate the 16:30 service the bus that's meant to operate it is not broken down it's but can't operate because its stuck in traffic or do they need to seek permission.

L1011

bebeman wrote: »

Do you think a private bus PSO contractor would put up with a tenth of the political interference DB have to endure?
Politicians wont be giving up any influence they have, DB are here to stay in one way or another.

The system DB operate under now won't exist. They'll need to win tenders or cease to be.

PSO contractors are only going to work to contract. External interference is going to be useless.

The Dublin setup isn't some magical concept isolated from the rest of the world. Awful directly operated structures have been replaced successfully elsewhere.

bebeman

Stephen15 wrote: »

What I was talking about is DB taking an extra bus of the depot to operate a timetabled service Eg. A 75 coming from The Square to DL gets held up in bad traffic and is due to operate the 16:30 outbound service from DL but now can't due to the fact it's held in traffic. In this scenario can DB send an extra bus to operate the 16:30 service the bus that's meant to operate it is not broken down it's but can't operate because its stuck in traffic or do they need to seek permission.

Not allowed.

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

Not allowed.

Yet I've had buses that have been extras to cover breakdowns and late running in the last couple of months, which according to you cannot happen but I have seen it happening but obviously I don't have full details as to exactly what happened.

bebeman

L1011 wrote: »

PSO contractors are only going to work to contract. External interference is going to be useless.

Innocence or Ignorance, you decide?
Does anyone here really believe DB has ZERO outside interference on its PSO routes?
Does anyone here think the powers that be would give up this influence they have?

L1011

bebeman wrote: »

Innocence or Ignorance, you decide?
Does anyone here really believe DB has ZERO outside interference on its PSO routes?
Does anyone here think the powers that be would give up this influence they have?

DB are not operating on a modern contract

There is no method for undue influence on the new contracts

Stephen15

bebeman wrote: »

Not allowed.

So your telling me that it's not allowed for DB to operate buses to a timetable that was set by the NTA.

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

Yet I've had buses that have been extras to cover breakdowns and late running in the last couple of months, which according to you cannot happen but I have seen it happening but obviously I don't have full details as to exactly what happened.

Negatory on that there assumption.
Why is there such a reluctance to believe the truth?
Has anything i have stated been denied by long time DB drivers who post here?
What have i got to gain by lying?
My job gets easier if passenger know the truth, once the truth is out there the public can get on to the NTA to stop acting anti passenger, this will make my job much easier, i wont be getting grief from pissed of passengers.

bebeman

L1011 wrote: »

DB are not operating on a modern contract

Thats just a ignorant statement ,DB operate under a contract draw up by the NTA ,its only a few years old.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

So your telling me that it's not allowed for DB to operate buses to a timetable that was set by the NTA.

I've just had a look in the PSO Contract [URL="[url]https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Dublin_Bus_Direct_Award_Contract_Schedules_Amended_03-2017_Website.pdf"]here[/URL] which states that one of the requirements of the contract are that

Auxiliary departures are reported on in a timely manner

This would suggest that they are allowed - but DB have to report the fact they are running them to the NTA promptly after running them - I have searched that contract extensively and there is nothing in the PSO contract to support what you are claiming.

L1011

bebeman wrote: »

Thats just a ignorant statement ,DB operate under a contract draw up by the NTA ,its only a few years old.

Which bears no relation to the tendered contracts we're discussing

bebeman

Stephen15 wrote: »

So your telling me that it's not allowed for DB to operate buses to a timetable that was set by the NTA.

What part is unclear?
If a bus is late, DB cant put on a extra bus to operate its scheduled departure.

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

What part is unclear?
If a bus is late, DB cant put on a extra bus to operate its scheduled departure.

There is nothing in the PSO contract that backs up the claim you are making, but there is a sentence in there that would suggest that they can do so and this PSO contract is the agreement between the two parties which outlines what Dublin Bus can and cannot do.

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

I've just had a look in the PSO Contract [URL="[url]https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Dublin_Bus_Direct_Award_Contract_Schedules_Amended_03-2017_Website.pdf"]here[/URL] which states that one of the requirements of the contract are that



This would suggest that they can run extra services but have to report the fact they are running them to the NTA promptly after running them - I have searched that contract extensively and there is nothing in the PSO contract to support what you are claiming.

suggest
1.put forward for consideration.
"I suggest that we wait a day or two"
synonyms: propose, put forward, submit, recommend, advocate;
2.cause one to think that (something) exists or is the case

Must get permission to run extra buses!
Next time you are standing waiting for a bus , many go past full, then you find out the DART is down, Concert/match is on, no wonder regular service cant carry the loading, now you know why no EXTRA buses are running.

thomasj

bebeman wrote:

Your point is? DB are not allowed to put on extra buses that are not timetabled without the permission of the NTA. In your opinion who is at fault here, DB or The NTA?

On the timetable , there is a note that states "buses may leave more frequently if demand dictates"

Surely, if what you're saying (nitelinks not a pso service) is true, that line shouldn't be in the timetable ?

monument

bebeman wrote: »

Innocence or Ignorance, you decide?

Cut that nonsense out — you can make your point without it.

— moderator

bebeman

thomasj wrote: »

On the timetable , there is a note that states "buses may leave more frequently if demand dictates"

Surely, if what you're saying (nitelinks not a pso service) is true, that line shouldn't be in the timetable ?

There is a concert/match on, demand will increase, DB must apply in advance to put on EXTRA buses.
Its not hard to understand.

MOH

bebeman wrote: »

There is a concert/match on, demand will increase, DB must apply in advance to put on EXTRA buses.
Its not hard to understand.

Seems pretty simple. Do they have a problem grasping that?

Phil.x

MOH wrote: »

Seems pretty simple. Do they have a problem grasping that?

Unions and staff are the problem is say.

cherryghost

So 7 months on and we've seen what... livery changes and some timetable changes. No hint of results from the survey at least? No grasp of useful information?

Stephen15

cherryghost wrote: »

So 7 months on and we've seen what... livery changes and some timetable changes. No hint of results from the survey at least? No grasp of useful information?

The project is still in it's infancy. It's not meant to be implemented until 2019 or later.

Stevek101

https://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/divisions/energy-environment/events/irish-public-transport-policy-and-the-busconnects.aspx

Starts at in 30 minutes. May reveal some more details.

devnull

Stevek101 wrote: »

https://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/divisions/energy-environment/events/irish-public-transport-policy-and-the-busconnects.aspx

Department for Transport Tourism and Sport Climate Change Unit up first, warm up act for the BusConnects presentation (her words not mine!)

Talked about the reasons for people traveling and what methods they take:74% car, 15% walk, 6% public transport, 2% cycle with train journeys far less than the European norm (unsurprising to me at least).

Also discussed the emissions caused by various forms of transport and the targets set by the DTTaS and the EU targets, both long, short and medium terms and trends in pollution in the state. Agriculture remains biggest emission creator.

Majority (54%) of emissions are caused by the private car, with bus, coach taxi at 3.3% (combined) and 1.1% on rail and fuel tourism is approx 10% (not totally sure how it's calculated as the cast broke up)

devnull

Stevek101 wrote: »

https://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/divisions/energy-environment/events/irish-public-transport-policy-and-the-busconnects.aspx

Starts at in 30 minutes. May reveal some more details.

NTA up now - head of public transport investment

Low density is a problem, bus forms backbone of transport system, Bus Connects is to transform the whole bus system to become more competitive, punctual and convenient when compared to private car.

Next Generation bus corridors
- BRT merged into Next Generation bus corridors aspect
- Journey times currently increasing due to sharing with lots of other traffic.
- Investing in infrastructure, should help with times.
- Multi Modal corridors
- investment in cycling
- Segregation from other modes (restrictions to cars)
- Anticipates planning issues

Redesign of bus network
- Work ongoing at the moment still
- Core network consultations in April 2018 for bus corridors
- Final consultation June 2018 for rest of the network.
- Engineering tenders to be issued.

New Ticketing System
- Single fare system considered but most likely will move to a tag on and tag off arrangement
- Better use of doors and a third door potentially.
- Moving to cashless
- Use of Debit and Credit cards
- Proposal to remove financial penalties for changing modes

New livery
- Still being looked at and workng few peoples views
- Final decision due to be released in a few weeks.

Bus Stops Shelters
- New style of bus pole with full info proposed to be rolled out this year.
- Will include departure times for that particular stop not terminus
- Better bus shelters

Bus based park and ride.
- Intergrated into bus network review.

Low Emissions vehicles
- Moving people onto transport will help with this
- Decision made on fleet technology end Q1 2018 (one or two technologies)
- First vehicles to be delivered by end of 2018
- By 2023 500 vehicles will go to low emission vehicles
- By 2030 full fleet will be low emission vehicles

devnull

Orbital Bus Corridor Proposals (For new routes)

devnull

Questions being asked now from the floor.

Spending and time-frame for project
Vast majority of spending on bus corridors - €5m per km and €70m a year on bus replacement, can't do all corridors at the same time, so can't give timeframe but there will be property costs and a CPO Process

Swiftway and BRT concept current status
Confirmed that it's been scrapped in it's previous form and merged into the BusConnects network redesign using standard vehicles not articulated vehicles (like FTR in England, Glider in Belfast etc).

Potential of Retrofitting existing vehicles with hybrid technology
All buses since 2016 are Euro 6, seeking views of Dublin Bus and other stakeholders on this, DTTaS believe that replacing is better than retrofitting.

Relation to bus stop construction and space and current issues
Touched on people in Cork moaning when bus stops were moved a little bit, not as simple as it sounds to resolve.

Using bike schemes to link radial/orbital bus routes
Something that will be looked into.

A gentleman involved with the LUAS in the past also raised about not a proper north and south corridor for public transport in Dublin, whilst saying that LUAS Cross City has hit this as well and why the lines were not joined in the past.

Gentleman from NTA has now left the conference.

thomasj

Hey has anyone got a screenshot of the radial routes? I thought I saw broombridge mentioned as part of the ongar UCD route.

xper

devnull wrote: »

New Orbital Bus Route Proposals
Map

I've seen this before. It is short on detail of course but it worries me. It seems very sparse.

I had expected 5-6 orbital rings rather than 2-3 and surely they should all extend to the coast. I wonder are these truly corridors with possibly multiple routes on any given section and possibly extending and fanning out beyond the corridors' ends? The current 17 and 18 routes are poor comparisons to proper orbital routes but they serve areas that are not covered by these corridors at all - that will cause upset if it means they are chopped (though the plan may be that they or parts of them become local routes).

On the plus side, I do like that they are not all separated rings and do intertwine at transport hubs allowing good interchange opportunities.

hmmm

xper wrote: »

On the plus side, I do like that they are not all separated rings and do intertwine at transport hubs allowing good interchange opportunities.

I suggest the lower one should go to Cherrywood & the new town planned there - commuters can hop onto the LUAS if they want to go to Sandyford. Similarly, I'm not sure why there is a big spur off to Blanchardstown when the outer lane could again collect - perhaps connecting to a new interchange at Liffey Valley and a future Lucan LUAS. I like it however.

Dyr

devnull wrote: »

New Orbital Bus Route Proposals

Don't think with that's new

Also note the part of Dublin that's completely reliant on buses for public transport gets stiffed again.