BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120141#Comment_118120141

No you weren’t.

But as this is being done in phases, there are going to have to be changes from time to time to make sure that, as in this case, existing local connectivity is maintained as different phases are implemented.

As the W6 won’t happen until the middle of next year, the C4 will maintain the Maynooth to Celbridge connection for now. It way well remain in place like that after the W6 starts - I don’t know. There’s wriggle room for small changes like that I would imagine.

But the key point is that connectivity like this will be maintained through the implementation.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120361#Comment_118120361

That is completely incorrect.

The phasing is primarily due to:

1) The requirement for funding for significant numbers of new buses (and drivers) as each phase is introduced - that simply wasn't there for it to be done in one go. Additional depot infrastructure will be needed to cope with the additional fleet and that needs funding too.

2) There simply are not enough specialist scheduling staff in Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead to come up with revised timetables and staff rosters for this to be done in one go - scheduling is extremely complex. Remember that full stop-by-stop timetables have also to be prepared for every single departure, and full stop-by-stop timetable panels prepared and printed for every bus stop in the city - that's almost 7,000 stops. Again very difficult to do in one go.

3) You'd need a cast of thousands of people out on-street to explain the changes to passengers if you were to do it in one go. And yes, even in this digital age, you do need people on-streeet to explain it to the bewildered. Other cities had to redeploy thousands of civil servants to deal with this. We just don't have the capabilty to do that.

Nothing to do with objections.

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121460#Comment_118121460

Ad.2. The NTA was meant to get some proper software to churn out individual stop timetables in the last 3-4 years. Whatever the software actually is, and how effective it is in the office - all of that eludes me. What I do know is that decent scheduling packages can churn out an entire route's stop schedules in seconds, minutes if they do it via a thousand and one Excel macros, and then it's just a matter of printing.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122400#Comment_118122400

We both know that, particularly in the case of Dublin Bus, schedules take much longer than you are suggesting to finalise.

It doesn't take seconds or minutes, but generally weeks at a miniumum for each set of routes that are on a roster, particularly given the need to create rosters that back up the schedules that comply with EU working time directives and are accepted by the drivers.

As to the printed stop timetables, someone still has to print them, sort them and then go out and install them all. New stops have to be installed at all the stops as well.

Let's not be kidding people that it all happens magically at the press of a button.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122524#Comment_118122524

This software is exactly the right thing to use as it can create schedules for each stop based on set rules (can be from directives, but also lots of other internal rules).

It takes more than one press of button, as it takes preparation and integration of data.

Lots of European cities using such software. It rather takes hours (to generate) to work on the entire city routes rather than minutes, especially if some rules to avoid bunching together are set. Preparation can indeed take weeks or months (data collection and data integration). This software can also account a dynamic traffic data (eg., from junctions, detectors on streets or just from Android and Iphone devices, or even Google maps traffic predictions).

Edit: I can see that NTA & BE are using Trapeze (not sure if it's also a software name as it's just a company).

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121460#Comment_118121460

Thanks for the interesting info, but I meant to say that Jarret Walker advised to implement BS in one go. It's unfortunate that it's taking so long, even if it's done in parts.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124273#Comment_118124273

He did, but realistically (for the reasons outlined above) that was never going to happen.

The next 14months should see all the orbital routes added which will be a big capacity increase and will make a lot more journeys possible using public transport.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124576#Comment_118124576

Indeed! The O, N2 (especially if rumours to divert it via Phoenix Park are real) etc... I applause a bold NTA's decision to create an N8 which is an important link.

Some solutions are odd, though, and I hope there are going to be some sort of adjustments.

Eg., Ballycoolin with some BC 35 peak time services and maybe even new P or X bus (could possibly be extended to Tyrrelstown) but then this P or X could possibly go via Finglas Road;

BC 34 could be renumbered to 37 and BC 37 to 34 or something else;

L61 reroute via Coolmine Road, Delwood Road, Roselawn Road to have a better coverage and reach Coolmine population, also, a closer link to a train station;

P29, I think, could be better rerouted via Esker Manor, Griffeen Road and then straight on Ballyowen Road to N4;

BC 60, I think, is a missed opportunity to cover Park West Road Industrial area. I would have rerouted 60 after Decies Road to Kylemore Park North, Park West Road, then possibly to Liffey Valley via Cloverhill Road. However, I like BC 60 covering Le Fanu Road in Ballyfermot. Maybe instead of BC 60 Cherry Orchard Park area could get a new L route from Chapelizod (current 76 termini) via Le Fanu, Cherry Orchard, turn around (both directions) at current 79A termini in Park West, and then go to Balgaddy Road via Clondalkin Village and Grange Castle Business Park.

Also strange is D1 termini in Balgaddy Road. I know it's existing 151 termini. But I would do D1 termini in Grange Castle Business Park. L route could do the job here to Grange Castle Business Park and to Clondalkin either this or L54.

Would also be interesting to see some sort of orbital from Red Cow to UCD via M50, exit 10, Ballymount Road Upper, Robinhood Road, Walkinstown Avenue, Templeville Road, Dodder Park, Dundrum to UCD.

I mean, really, industrial estates are massively missed here while morning and evening times traffic there shows people going to and from work. I'd think PT should definitely be brought closer to these work places.

I realise industrial estates hardly generate people traffic in the middle of the day. That's why I'd think L every 30-60mins and P/X could do a nice little treat to the areas. Except with my above sugested S5 for Red Cow to UCD which could serve industrial estate as well as be a nice linking orbital.

p_haugh

"L route could do the job here to Grange Castle Business Park and to Clondalkin either this or L54." I was thinking that (under bus connects) Grange Castle Business Park will be somewhat underserved, especially the current 13 terminus and Cuisine De France end of it. Even when Kishoge eventually opens, it would be around 15 minute walk from the closest D1/L54 stop within the park to theses areas. If anything, the L54 should be routed the long way through the park to cover off those areas.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125931#Comment_118125931

Completely agree. There are definitely more examples of work places (=industrial estates) to cover. I suppose, this is not a 100% final plan, and some minor amendments will be in place. Eg., some D1 would do to Cuisine De France etc etc. I'm a bit surprised places like this got overlooked. But I understand it was the first time in Irish history so much attention to PT changes given. Not much of experience NTA has yet. I hope the NTA will see these missed spots sooner than people start making official complaints as I absolutely will regarding some places. I think it was too much complemented with some granny routes while some areas got forgotten. Not a very nice balance, a bit 'take from one, give to another' approach. But can't deny that there still is a very big positive change as mentioned above re orbitals, also previously discussed earlier service hours etc.

Citrus_8

Also, new vertical rectangle yellow green bus stop signs are ugly and boring. Snoby and unoriginal. I think, a TFI logo shaped (two sharp and two rounded corner) with a green and a white colours stop sign would look better. I could swear I saw a green white sign somewhere around or in Dublin, but can remember where exactly. Maybe Ashbourne, or D15, or D8...

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122524#Comment_118122524

Creating the actual working timetable takes ages, I know... from experience. From routing a service to having a complete schedule, with distance data, journey timing, setting trips, blocking, duty cutting, ensuring legal validity, it's a good few hours. Well sped up if you have a software to automate the repetitive, but it takes time.

Churning out the stop prints should be a matter of less than minutes. I was referring to the actual stop timetables only, not the entire construction hidden behind it all ;)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124179#Comment_118124179

Trapeze is a company, but their delivery is mostly towards the RTPI/AVL systems. The black-boxed full-colour-screen AVL screens in BE/GAICom cabs are Trapeze products.

Bus Éireann use the IVU.suite, a German software quite popular in its homeland, for schedule creation (personally I only latched onto it when I saw a duty card from the Potsdam city operator looking extremely similar to BÉ's current duty cards). Dublin Bus use Excel for schedule prep and duty-cutting, and then create the AVL data using another software (I'm led to believe it's also IVU), whereas Go-Ahead Ireland use OmniTimes, the most popular scheduling software in the UK.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125993#Comment_118125993

They're still an extreme improvement over what DB and BÉ have been installing themselves, it's just a minor shame that the NTA have taken a quite unimaginative design on board. yascaoimhin on Twitter (there is an account here by that name but I have no idea if it's the same person or a pure coincidence) has shown an alternative design not far from your description, also using the Metropolis font (which is the font used in all the current TFI branding materials) rather than Univers (which was the font specified in the original 2014 passenger information guidelines).

dublinman1990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121460#Comment_118121460

If we are hearing things from the NTA about how new bus depots are going to be acquired in the GDA for BC; there must be a big likelihood now of a new PSO bus depot may become reality with one opening up very soon. The last bus depot in Ballymount opened in 2018 for GAI. You're talking 3 years ago now. That is quite a long time to have a site acquired & open one up between than & now. The big question here on anyone's lips now is that have the NTA drawn up a decent list of new sites on hand so that they buy them to be used as a new bus depot in Dublin anytime soon. It must be a matter of where & when they are going to do it if they are going to get this work done.

Would anyone here think that a new PSO bus depot would be opened up & fully operational in Dublin sometime in 2022?

I would prefer that if the NTA were to buy a new site for a new bus depot; they would need to buy a site that has some buildings in them that were used for other purposes on the land before it was put up for sale by previous owners on the commercial property market. They did it while buying the former DHL site in Ballymount which is now housing GAI's operation which is located near the M50. If the NTA have the luck to find other sites like that in future; the process of allocating the BC routes going out to be run in the new depots would be much easier to roll them out much sooner than expected.

TranslatorPS

Looks like C1 and C2 are set to be true 24/7 services with a half-hourly service alternating (so every 60 each).

From a scheduling perspective a small leak: you may have noticed that all the inbound Hs are coordinated from stop 604 All Saints Road onwards. For the C Spine the absolute coordination points are stop 325 Aston Quay outbound (although it could be a different Aston Quay stop they'll actually serve) and stop 2234 Lucan Retail Park inbound, meaning that at these stops a clock-face schedule will be maintained as much as possible on the C services, and ahead and beyond there will be variations to account for different road conditions.

thomasj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135969#Comment_118135969

I thought it was the C3 and C4 that were going 24 hours ?

jams100

Does anyone know why the done a build out inbound at Heuston Station bus stop?

Now what happens is a bus pulls in to let someone on/off and other buses and taxis have to stay behind and wait. (Can't pass)

Essentially removed a lay by, counterintuitive to bus connects and speeding up public transport. My only guess is that it has something to do with cyclists? Never really encountered any issues on the times I've been on a bus / cycled there

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137781#Comment_118137781

Interesting. As per sheet 31 (page 71) https://busconnects.ie/media/2263/lucan-to-city-centre_english-combined-1-update.pdf, there should be a lay bay.

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137451#Comment_118137451

So did I. Something is telling me that the Lucan corridor might have a combined f-15 night service (against an f-7.5 daytime service outside of peaks), between the two Adamstown routes and the Maynooth & Celbridge services. Not to mention the boon that Sandymount is getting in the process, a half-hourly night service as well, when Raheny has none!

L1011

Last few non-socketed bus stop poles in Maynooth seem to be being socketed this week; this will allow them to be swapped for the NTA neutral poles in a few weeks. Fair few already are due to the 139.

Really, really minor in the scheme of things but the first sign on the ground of changes.

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138479#Comment_118138479

Quoting oneself being bad practice aside - indeed, all four routes will have an hourly night-time service, for a combined f-15 service on the common section between Ringsend garage and junction 3 in Lucan (Woodies) throughout the night.

C4 will be extended to Maynooth (the current 67 terminus) - this will probably be curtailed back to Celbridge when the W6 kicks in next year.

pk1991

Dublin bus have updated their website today with C-spine details due to launch on 28th November. I can't post a link.

Nothing on the busconnects website yet, but I imagine that will be later today or tomorrow.

Also, I have question about the new bus stops and I hope somebody can explain; Why is the operator listed on the stop (as in DB and GA routes)? What does it matter and all it does is add unnesscary clutter and seperation on the stop?

LXFlyer

The news story is here:

https://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Second-Phase-of-new-Bus-Connects-Network-to-launch/

The brochure is here:

https://www.dublinbus.ie/Global/FaresAndTickets/C-Spine%20English%20Booklet%20-%2020.10.21%20FA%20Spreads.pdf

Timetables yet to appear.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145373#Comment_118145373

Totally agree with regard to Dublin City PSO bus services - all that is needed is the route number on the flag on bus stops.

It’s pure clutter.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145548#Comment_118145548

I'd agree if only we have one phone/email for all Dublin PT services: DB, GAI, IR within Dublin & Leap, possibly even private Swords, Ashbourne etc. It could be under the NTA (TFI).

Currently passengers need to contact operators directly for customer services. Hence the info on the bus stop signs about who's providing service.

p_haugh

Glad to see all of the C-Spine going 24 hours, still a bit odd that C3 & 4 are being renumbered during the night. I wonder, will all future spine routes be made 24 hours (i.e. all of D1-D5), or just selective routes based on demand (i.e. just D1)?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145760#Comment_118145760

I suppose given the routing change via Chapelizod at night, a different number makes that clear.

Although why not use C3N and C4N which make more sense?

Regarding other spines, it will probably depend on the corridor and what the perceived demand is like - let’s be honest Chapelizod, Lucan, Leixlip, Celbridge and Maynooth probably all have sufficient demand for a a night service.

Other spines could see night time routes combined to a degree.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145548#Comment_118145548

Totally agree that it's clutter and we need to have things more integrated and less divided like this.

However with both bus operators having their own customer service and still a lot of stand alone functions rather than full integration with a central function, I guess the operators might want it clear which services they operate?

Hopefully the previously mentioned customer contact centre that the NTA talked about previously will move things like this forward.

Do we know if this launch will also include fare changes. Since we've heard nothing about fare determinations so far, I am assuming it might happen concurrently with this, if they're moving to th two fare system.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145791#Comment_118145791

Yeah that's the downside of doing the Spine-based numbering system, variations of a route can't necessarily be easily done - it can start getting a bit messy of you start using "C3N" for example.

Citrus_8

C3N is logical numbering, but rather looks like a post code :)

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145824#Comment_118145824

The distinction between operators could surely be made though on the timetable panel as it is in London.

It just looks way too cluttered.

Plus on a spine surely the spine routes should come first, followed by radials, locals, peak and express routes.

The fare changes will have to take place alongside this phase being implemented, as places served by the 25, 66a and 66b will no longer have a direct off-peak service to and from the city. You couldn’t penalise those customers.

I believe that the new fares are due to be publicised next Monday.