BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

MJohnston

"People are blaming Jarrett Walker, but it’s not his design that was actually implemented"

Same problem in Dublin - spineless local and national authorities that won't put in the necessary funding for infrastructure leading to massive compromises.

Good to know that Auckland benefitted from a properly implemented Walker-designed plan though.

MJohnston

Also lol at the idea that NTA just needed to spend a wee bit more money to convince the public about changes...that's....naive, to put it mildly.

Last Stop

MJohnston wrote: »

Also lol at the idea that NTA just needed to spend a wee bit more money to convince the public about changes...that's....naive, to put it mildly.

It was always going to be a difficult sell but they made it even more difficult for themselves by presenting it as they did. It was an engineering design which the ordinary person couldn’t follow. This led to significant amounts of misinformation being thrown about. I recall some giving out that the A route and the A1 route were different and they would have to change buses to get into town.
A little extra investment would have solved a lot of these sort of comments allowing focus on the real concerns and would have been money extremely well spent.

cgcsb

Last Stop wrote: »

It was always going to be a difficult sell but they made it even more difficult for themselves by presenting it as they did. It was an engineering design which the ordinary person couldn’t follow. This led to significant amounts of misinformation being thrown about. I recall some giving out that the A route and the A1 route were different and they would have to change buses to get into town.
A little extra investment would have solved a lot of these sort of comments allowing focus on the real concerns and would have been money extremely well spent.

That was just crass stupidity, lack of reading ability and being unable to read a map.

Qrt

cgcsb wrote: »

That was just crass stupidity, lack of reading ability and being unable to read a map.

Yeah, there’s a lot to be said for BusConnects’ opposition coming entirely from people’s complete lack of reading ability.

Zebra3

cgcsb wrote: »

That was just crass stupidity, lack of reading ability and being unable to read a map.

A lot of it was just pure gombeenism.

"Save the 53A". :rolleyes:

Last Stop

The above is 100% correct and that’s the point. Some people cannot read maps like others can. The information has to be laid out in as clear a format as possible.
The vast majority of people who read this thread probably had no problem reading it but the fact they are reading this thread suggests they have an interest in transport and are more likely to understand maps etc.

The funny thing is that the NTA have already done the hard work with the new rout maps at bus stops, they just didn’t transfer it over to the public consultation.

There is an lot of information to take in. I know they have done the route mapper this time round but again this is quite one dimensional. What would have been extremely handy is if they had an interactive map of all the routes where you could click on a specific route and see it from start to finish. That way you could understand it more.

Again I’ll reiterate the point about a comms team. While I have no doubt that Jarrett Walker and the NTA have put in a huge amount of work, they are too close to the project to be able to explain it to the public. What they needed to do was to hand over all the information to a comms team who specialise in this kind of thing and say “explain that in plain english”. You can have the reports there as well but the main part should be clear to a child essentially.

cgcsb

You don't need an engineering degree to read and understand a map or the paragraph of text explaining the spine system. There was literally nothing the NTA could do to stop the functionally illiterate with big mouths mouthing off. The same people can't use the mapper function or won't try.

sharper

cgcsb wrote: »

You don't need an engineering degree to read and understand a map or the paragraph of text explaining the spine system. There was literally nothing the NTA could do to stop the functionally illiterate with big mouths mouthing off. The same people can't use the mapper function or won't try.

I don't think the problem is so much stupid people but opportunistic politicians.

Yes people should go and read the maps so they understand everything but why do that when someone you trust (your local TD "that gets things done") is telling you it's bad? What about they tell you you're losing your bus and a simple glance at the plan shows this is true, there's no sign of your bus on it?

Then you get a critical mass of people that repeat what the politician said and now "everyone is saying this is worse".

Also consider a particular councillor that's now running as a TD only claims to want event better transport like a metro, wants to protect communities and is like, totally, against pollution and stuff. A lot of people have taken her at her word and if you follow read what they say on twitter then in any other context they're pro public transport but have been convinced bus connects is bad.

Last Stop

cgcsb wrote: »

You don't need an engineering degree to read and understand a map or the paragraph of text explaining the spine system. There was literally nothing the NTA could do to stop the functionally illiterate with big mouths mouthing off.

I’ve just told you there is something they could have done. While your above point is valid, the first public consultation wasn’t clear, they changed it this time around but there are many elements which could have been clearer.

cgcsb

Last Stop wrote: »

I’ve just told you there is something they could have done. While your above point is valid, the first public consultation wasn’t clear, they changed it this time around but there are many elements which could have been clearer.

And im telling you it wouldn't have mattered a jot.
Not that it matters now, we'll be getting a fudged bus connects that won't improve journey times because we have no way of enforcing bus priority unless we get a new transport minister.

MJohnston

sharper wrote: »

I don't think the problem is so much stupid people but opportunistic politicians.

Yes people should go and read the maps so they understand everything but why do that when someone you trust (your local TD "that gets things done") is telling you it's bad? What about they tell you you're losing your bus and a simple glance at the plan shows this is true, there's no sign of your bus on it?

Then you get a critical mass of people that repeat what the politician said and now "everyone is saying this is worse".

Also consider a particular councillor that's now running as a TD only claims to want event better transport like a metro, wants to protect communities and is like, totally, against pollution and stuff. A lot of people have taken her at her word and if you follow read what they say on twitter then in any other context they're pro public transport but have been convinced bus connects is bad.

The media are also fairly complicit in this. Arguably it’s their job to synthesise complex plans into news for the public, and use expert opinion to provide flavour and direction. Instead, we mostly get a series of click bait voxpops from concerned commuters and opportunistic politicians. Very little from those with positive opinions (doesn’t provide the same dramatic headlines) and very little from an objective perspective.

lawred2

Got a surprise opening this thread to see that it was started 3 years ago. Remember the day it was created. Nothing ever gets done here.

sharper

MJohnston wrote: »

The media are also fairly complicit in this. Arguably it’s their job to synthesise complex plans into news for the public, and use expert opinion to provide flavour and direction. Instead, we mostly get a series of click bait voxpops from concerned commuters and opportunistic politicians. Very little from those with positive opinions (doesn’t provide the same dramatic headlines) and very little from an objective perspective.

Almost everything in the Irish Times is written from the perspective of car commuters in nice quiet areas close to the city so the status quo is pretty much perfect for them.

They did manage to publish something recently highlighting the plight of the average commuter. This segment of the population is enormous yet the conversation is always dominated by small special interests https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/commuter-hell-my-daily-commute-is-affecting-my-mental-health-1.4109774

sharper

lawred2 wrote: »

Got a surprise opening this thread to see that it was started 3 years ago. Remember the day it was created. Nothing ever gets done here.

Still 3 years away from the redesign being fully implemented and 7 years away from the infrastructure upgrades being complete.

Someone that just graduated college when the plan was announced will be in their early/mid 30s by its completion and have advanced to being reasonably senior in their career.

thomasj

I was on a 39A the other morning around 8.55am and the bus was packed with multiple buggy users a pram and a good few people standing.

It came up to a stop near huntstown with a wheelchair user, and the driver turned around , shook his head and turned back and said sorry, I'm not going to get you on here there's a bus a minute or so away can you hang on and the wheelchair said grand and the bus drove away.

In this case the bus driver was right, there was no space on the bus and there was a 39 and 39a behind. But what will happen when bus connects comes in and there's 1 route operating every 15 minutes?

There's a number of wheelchair users and also a good few buggy's/prams that are used on the 39a on a daily basis , in this scenario the wheelchair user would have to wait 15 minutes on the next bus post bus connects.

It has me wondering will it get to a stage that like Irish rail, passengers relying on wheelchairs will have to phone to let know that they will be availing of the bus.

I hope disability groups have got their feedback in!

MJohnston

thomasj wrote: »

I was on a 39A the other morning around 8.55am and the bus was packed with multiple buggy users a pram and a good few people standing.

It came up to a stop near huntstown with a wheelchair user, and the driver turned around , shook his head and turned back and said sorry, I'm not going to get you on here there's a bus a minute or so away can you hang on and the wheelchair said grand and the bus drove away.

In this case the bus driver was right, there was no space on the bus and there was a 39 and 39a behind. But what will happen when bus connects comes in and there's 1 route operating every 15 minutes?

There's a number of wheelchair users and also a good few buggy's/prams that are used on the 39a on a daily basis , in this scenario the wheelchair user would have to wait 15 minutes on the next bus post bus connects.

It has me wondering will it get to a stage that like Irish rail, passengers relying on wheelchairs will have to phone to let know that they will be availing of the bus.

I hope disability groups have got their feedback in!

Why was there a 39a right behind yours? Was it schedule bunching?

thomasj

MJohnston wrote: »

Why was there a 39a right behind yours? Was it schedule bunching?

Yeah it was schedule bunching. Traffic in the area is a problem at this time usually. Could be waiting 20 minutes on a bus and then 2 or 3 show up

cgcsb

thomasj wrote: »

I was on a 39A the other morning around 8.55am and the bus was packed with multiple buggy users a pram and a good few people standing.

It came up to a stop near huntstown with a wheelchair user, and the driver turned around , shook his head and turned back and said sorry, I'm not going to get you on here there's a bus a minute or so away can you hang on and the wheelchair said grand and the bus drove away.

In this case the bus driver was right, there was no space on the bus and there was a 39 and 39a behind. But what will happen when bus connects comes in and there's 1 route operating every 15 minutes?

There's a number of wheelchair users and also a good few buggy's/prams that are used on the 39a on a daily basis , in this scenario the wheelchair user would have to wait 15 minutes on the next bus post bus connects.

It has me wondering will it get to a stage that like Irish rail, passengers relying on wheelchairs will have to phone to let know that they will be availing of the bus.

I hope disability groups have got their feedback in!

Why would it be any different under bus connects? Because the bunching issue won't be solved outside of the core bus corridors

starbaby2003

thomasj wrote: »

I was on a 39A the other morning around 8.55am and the bus was packed with multiple buggy users a pram and a good few people standing.

It came up to a stop near huntstown with a wheelchair user, and the driver turned around , shook his head and turned back and said sorry, I'm not going to get you on here there's a bus a minute or so away can you hang on and the wheelchair said grand and the bus drove away.

In this case the bus driver was right, there was no space on the bus and there was a 39 and 39a behind. But what will happen when bus connects comes in and there's 1 route operating every 15 minutes?

There's a number of wheelchair users and also a good few buggy's/prams that are used on the 39a on a daily basis , in this scenario the wheelchair user would have to wait 15 minutes on the next bus post bus connects.

It has me wondering will it get to a stage that like Irish rail, passengers relying on wheelchairs will have to phone to let know that they will be availing of the bus.

I hope disability groups have got their feedback in!

On our bus route you are not allowed use the disability space for a buggy. I have seen people being refused if they don’t fold up their buggy and there is already a buggy in the buggy space. There definitely shouldn’t be three buggies on a bus either way.

Victor

thomasj wrote: »

There's a number of wheelchair users and also a good few buggy's/prams that are used on the 39a on a daily basis , in this scenario the wheelchair user would have to wait 15 minutes on the next bus post bus connects.

It would depend on where in Huntstown. https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5375481#map=14/53.4035/-6.4130

The B2 and 264 are each every 15 minutes and there will be 4 route 360 departures between 7 and 8am. People will also be able to go the 'wrong way' to Clonsilla station. https://busconnects.ie/media/1624/blanchardstown-accordian-leaflet-260919-fa-web.pdf

trellheim

As a 39a regular you very rarely see buggy users being asked or told to fold.

Bunching is *extremely* common due to the high usage and limited places to overtake.


This leads me to a question : Do Dublin bus track their buses with gPS ? I presume so - if so do they provide the data in an open form ? you could analyze it to try and find mitigators for the worst bunch points

punisher5112

starbaby2003 wrote: »

On our bus route you are not allowed use the disability space for a buggy. I have seen people being refused if they don’t fold up their buggy and there is already a buggy in the buggy space. There definitely shouldn’t be three buggies on a bus either way.

Where is this?

db rules on this are one buggy on any bus from 2013 onwards and a wheelchair or 2 buggies but the one on last has to be told they may need to fold and are to be asked to do so.....

I've yet to have one that will actually fold and I've sadly had to leave many wheelchair users behind.


Another thing is them 4 wheel mobility scooters as they can use the space too.... They must acquire a licence from db head office to do so though.

Had one got on before it took her 15 minutes to actually get it in and on and she only went 3 stops.... I was very late on that run...

punisher5112

trellheim wrote: »

As a 39a regular you very rarely see buggy users being asked or told to fold.

Bunching is *extremely* common due to the high usage and limited places to overtake.


This leads me to a question : Do Dublin bus track their buses with gPS ? I presume so - if so do they provide the data in an open form ? you could analyze it to try and find mitigators for the worst bunch points

GPS linked but not available to anyone outside of the NTA or db.
Any reason for buses catching others such as traffic, amount of lights caught at, passenger loading, incidents on route such as passenger issues or collision etc, the bus behind may get a clear run so catches up.

starbaby2003

punisher5112 wrote: »

Where is this?

db rules on this are one buggy on any bus from 2013 onwards and a wheelchair or 2 buggies but the one on last has to be told they may need to fold and are to be asked to do so.....

I've yet to have one that will actually fold and I've sadly had to leave many wheelchair users behind.


Another thing is them 4 wheel mobility scooters as they can use the space too.... They must acquire a licence from db head office to do so though.

Had one got on before it took her 15 minutes to actually get it in and on and she only went 3 stops.... I was very late on that run...

4 - monkstown towards town

AlekSmart

starbaby2003 wrote: »

4 - monkstown towards town

The Busdriver does not have discretion in this matter..on any BAC route.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Accessibility/Passengers-with-buggies/

Wheelchair users have priority over everyone else for use of the wheelchair space, since this is the only place in which they can travel safely.

Low-floor buses are designed so that buggies can remain unfolded in the wheelchair space if it is free. Please make sure the buggy is safely positioned and the brake is on, unfolded buggies cannot travel in the gangway. You should be able to board any low-floor bus with a buggy. If the driver thinks that it is too crowded for you to board safely, he may refuse you boarding. The driver will not ask anybody already travelling to get off the bus to make room.

If someone in a wheelchair wishes to board when there is an unfolded buggy in the wheelchair space, the driver will ask you to fold the buggy and either put it in the luggage space or keep it by your side.

On all new buses there is both a wheelchair space and a buggy space, buggy owners may use both spaces but the buggy owner in the wheelchair space must move out of this space if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus.

In the event of a Wheelchair user presenting for travel and the Wheelchair Space being occupied by an occupied buggy,the Busdriver MUST request the Buggy owner to fold & stow the buggy and vacate the Wheelchair space,however should the Buggy owner refuse this request,the Busdriver has NO power to force them to comply,and the Wheelchair user must be declined access.

Current Equality legislation does not allow for positive action to enforce Disabled Access.

devnull

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Is the blue being taken out of the livery altogether or is it being kept with a new colour variation?

Yellow and Green are to be the new colours unless there is a late change.

This will also be the case at bus stops and for branding, literature etc.

p_haugh

devnull wrote: »

Yellow and Green are to be the new colours unless there is a late change.

This will also be the case at bus stops and for branding, literature etc.

Could be doing something along the lines of the DB hybrid livery then?

Joker2019

devnull wrote: »

Yellow and Green are to be the new colours unless there is a late change.

This will also be the case at bus stops and for branding, literature etc.

Will such a livery be just for Dublin or will it be used across the country I wonder.

Breezer

An interesting article in The Irish Times today:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/self-driving-vehicles-will-render-transport-landscape-obsolete-1.4119602

Self-driving vehicles will render transport landscape obsolete
Do we really need four new lanes blasting through quiet villages or city centres?

It’s paywalled, but the gist is that there is a new law allowing for the testing of driverless cars on Irish roads. In the future, when we have less private cars and more driverless cars, we won’t need as much road space. Therefore, do we really need to widen roads for BusConnects?

While the cynic in me feels this is yet another BusConnects smear article, the journalist makes a good point. I’ve always felt that a problem with BusConnects is that it still ensures plenty of road space for cars. Do we really need this? Absolutely put the bus and cycle lanes in, but do we need to keep providing for cars? Could we, in a lot of cases, use the existing road space, reassigned to buses and cycling?

Of course, no Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael politician is going to sign off on that, so I’ll take the current BusConnects over nothing.