BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

OscarMIlde

sharper wrote: »

The train network is a total disaster, I think making assumptions in relation to that in the bus connects plan is a mistake. If Dart underground was under construction sure fine but we'll be lucky to see that in our lifetimes.

I'm certain at least some of the infrastructure can be done first, likely more than enough to keep everyone busy in the meantime. Historically the government has a strong preference for transport planning over transport implementation unfortunately.

You're quite correct. I don't think the train line plans are thought through well enough for Western commuter line. 10 minute dart is a disaster for people I know travelling from the North side. I don't envisage 10 minute Maynooth services happening either, considering ever train needs to go through Connolly. Routing to Docklands isn't the preferred option for most people. They could increase evening frequencies though, it's why I abandoned the train in the first place.

OscarMIlde

sharper wrote: »

You're thinking of all this in relation to the existing infrastructure.

Under the bus corridor section the current travel time for Lucan to city centre is listed as 50 minutes, reducing to 30-35 minutes under bus connects https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/core-bus-corridor-project/

Peak journey times will definitely be a regressive step for many existing commuters under bus connects without infrastructure upgrades but the route changes themselves are not the only part of the plan. The connection between changing the routes (relatively free in so far as spending goes) and actually paying to build something (with all the legal battles and special interests that go with it) is certainly a worry but it's not being ignored either.

I strongly suspect the primary assumption weakening the bus connects plan for Maynooth and Celbridge is the given assumption from the NTA that train capacity exists and should be used in preference to the bus. This is not going to improve without a major spend in upgrading the rail network which is needed but is even riskier than bus connects.

It might be quicker to/from Lucan on a normal bus, but if it is slower between Maynooth and Lucan at peak times on the new express service (if I even get on it, since there are now only three running to Maynooth) I'll still have a much longer commute. The leave times are ridiculous as well. The first one leaves UCD at half four, next at ten to five, and the last at ten past five. It's presuming the only people leaving UCD are students and ignoring staff, and it ignores students (especially science students) who have lectures/labs till six. I'll likely never leave work early enough to catch one.

SPDUB

Qrt wrote: »

+++++ this! Blanchardstown is horrendous, New Lucan is horrendous, some parts of Tallaght are bad but it's fairly limited thankfully. A little backstory, the estate of Swiftbrook is surrounded by walls and railings. A few years ago a car came off the roundabout and brought some of it down, leaving a gap. The residents used it to get to the bus and shop quicker, the council rebuilt it without consultation, and over the next couple of weeks, the wall was brought down again and the council installed kissing gates!

Another anecdote re permeability. The whole Árd Mstate runs along the Luas Line, but there's no way it accessing it from the estate...

When An Post started using software to help plan it's routes for postmen they run into this problem as well .

The software automatically assumed there was always a connection between various roads so as a consequence it suggested impossible routes which would have required climbing walls etc

sharper

OscarMIlde wrote: »

It might be quicker to/from Lucan on a normal bus, but if it is slower between Maynooth and Lucan at peak times on the new express service (if I even get on it, since there are now only three running to Maynooth) I'll still have a much longer commute. The leave times are ridiculous as well. The first one leaves UCD at half four, next at ten to five, and the last at ten past five. It's presuming the only people leaving UCD are students and ignoring staff, and it ignores students (especially science students) who have lectures/labs till six. I'll likely never leave work early enough to catch one.

The next iteration of the plan will be interesting to see. Anyone I know that gets the express to UCD is as worried as you are and others generally don't see the point of going through Lucan at all when the services are usually full.

My gripe with the express busses is they're very hard to access from the city centre because they're usually full, often near full from the first stop. I often end up working later than I need to because there's little point getting a 66 at 4pm which gets you to Maynooth at 5:30pm when the express at 5pm gets you there at 5:50pm.

The great advantage of the bus system is that it should be able to easily respond to changing demand. They should plan for the existing train capacity and then review things later.

OscarMIlde

sharper wrote: »

The next iteration of the plan will be interesting to see. Anyone I know that gets the express to UCD is as worried as you are and others generally don't see the point of going through Lucan at all when the services are usually full.

My gripe with the express busses is they're very hard to access from the city centre because they're usually full, often near full from the first stop. I often end up working later than I need to because there's little point getting a 66 at 4pm which gets you to Maynooth at 5:30pm when the express at 5pm gets you there at 5:50pm.

The great advantage of the bus system is that it should be able to easily respond to changing demand. They should plan for the existing train capacity and then review things later.

Completely agree. My suggestion for the submission was to increase the number and duration of expresso buses (i.e have them start earlier and finish later) and have them all depart from the city centre. The UCD to Westmoreland street is sooo long. It goes down Baggot street AND loops around Westland row and Pearse street. It takes 50 minutes to an hour if traffic is good! Most people would be happier getting a quicker bus to the city centre and then changing for an expresso that they are likely to be able to board due to increased service capacity. I know a number of people who drive to UCD from Lucan and Maynooth between 6 and 6:30 and leave UCD after seven rather than take the bus because they would rather work longer hours than sit in traffic being unproductive. They would definitely revert to bus if it was a quicker option.

cgcsb

Nothing has actually changed btw.

The original project timeline says that the network review will be implemented in 'late 2019/early 2020' depending on the submissions.

A large number of submissions were recieved.

I'd expect the revised plan to result in a bulking up of peak hour/xpresso services.
Areas where the only option is to transfer to oversubscribed rail services, e.g. Donebate, will change.

The road widening details will be out soon. Can't wait to see 'em. It'll definitely happen. This time around there's just too much pressure to improve things to just give up.

Qrt

cgcsb wrote: »

Nothing has actually changed btw.

The original project timeline says that the network review will be implemented in 'late 2019/early 2020' depending on the submissions.

A large number of submissions were recieved.

I'd expect the revised plan to result in a bulking up of peak hour/xpresso services.
Areas where the only option is to transfer to oversubscribed rail services, e.g. Donebate, will change.

The road widening details will be out soon. Can't wait to see 'em. It'll definitely happen. This time around there's just too much pressure to improve things to just give up.

Bear in mind there's virtually no reason for the NBRU to oppose this too. They might actually be as supportive for that as they were critical of the redesign! To be fair, a lot of the bus corridors could be easily done, segments of Ballyfermot Rd. where there are basically three roads running parallel and the Navan Rd too.

Charles Babbage

OscarMIlde wrote: »

On top of that they have gutted the expresso system, which is already oversubscribed. They should have extended this service, giving nine or ten expresso buses to each town between half 6 and eight in the moring and made them properly direct by making them non stop to Liffey valley and Heuston and then normal stops thereafter. They should similarly have incresed frequency and duration of frequency in the evening, and made them all depart from the city centre rather than UCD. The UCD-Westmoreland street route is overly lone, often taking an hour, and passengers would be better served taking 46a/39a/145 to the city centre and catching the expresso buses there.

They need M50 express routes a perak times to UCD via Sandyford, but not going down the main street in Dundrum. People working in places like Cherrywood or Blackrock could connect to these.

TheChrisD

Victor wrote: »

Gwan then

I notice that a couple of your comments - including general query 42, and comments on the B1/B2 routing in Ongar - are suggesting running buses in opposite directions on the same road, but heading to the same destination.

I think one of the main keys to the proposed network was to remove instances where this is currently the case - such as the 9 and 83 on Glasnevin Avenue, or the 220 and the 39s on the Huntstown/Hartstown loop - so there is no confusion as to which side of the road leads to which destination.

loyatemu

Qrt wrote: »

+++++ this! Blanchardstown is horrendous, New Lucan is horrendous, some parts of Tallaght are bad but it's fairly limited thankfully. A little backstory, the estate of Swiftbrook is surrounded by walls and railings. A few years ago a car came off the roundabout and brought some of it down, leaving a gap. The residents used it to get to the bus and shop quicker, the council rebuilt it without consultation, and over the next couple of weeks, the wall was brought down again and the council installed kissing gates!

Another anecdote re permeability. The whole Árd Mór estate runs along the Luas Line, but there's no way it accessing it from the estate...

the Dept of Transport road design manual has a load of stuff about permeability and pedestrian "desire lines" but it's up to councils to implement it within the planning process. Wicklow CC have certainly improved in this area, recent estates built in Greystones generally have ped access to adjoining roads and estates.

Also many estates were built in the 70s and 80s when the assumption was everyone could drive everywhere, US style. Retrofitting pedestrian walkways etc to these is difficult because the people in the immediate vicinity of them object due to fears of anti-social behaviour, loss of privacy etc.

Qrt

loyatemu wrote: »

Retrofitting pedestrian walkways etc to these is difficult because the people in the immediate vicinity of them object due to fears of anti-social behaviour, loss of privacy etc.

Ashfield Gardens being case-and-point. Millbrook Lawns in Tallaght had a lot more too but some were closed (the estate is quiet but half the green space is between the backs of houses. Very lonely at times.

Recently SDCC had a plebiscite (afaik) in the Springfield area to close a walkway near Raheen. It was defeated i.e. it's staying as a walkway.

http://echo.ie/news/article/tallaght-residents-divided-over-the-closing-of-laneway

Chris_5339762

Most of the new estates in Dublin, and indeed around the country, are walled in like prisons with only one access. Heres a good example between Airpark and Woodfield.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2758115,-6.3083351,215m/data=!3m1!1e3

That once fence means a 2.5km walk between the two.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/53.275537,-6.3080044/53.2756012,-6.3080854/@53.2771844,-6.3084874,723m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e2

Those private, managed developments are the worst culprits of this. They have no interest in maintaining any form of permeability, there is no way to force them and it would mean increased costs on management companies blighted by non-payment so there is no incentive.

Qrt

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Most of the new estates in Dublin, and indeed around the country, are walled in like prisons with only one access. Heres a good example between Airpark and Woodfield.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2758115,-6.3083351,215m/data=!3m1!1e3

That once fence means a 2.5km walk between the two.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/53.275537,-6.3080044/53.2756012,-6.3080854/@53.2771844,-6.3084874,723m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e2

Those private, managed developments are the worst culprits of this. They have no interest in maintaining any form of permeability, there is no way to force them and it would mean increased costs on management companies blighted by non-payment so there is no incentive.

That's horrendous, easily hoppable though. There's an NTA report somewhere on permebility and they have a photograph of a trolley used in Hartstown to get over a wall. BusConnects would benefit immensely if all this was sorted out. The adjacent estate seems to have the same thing going on... https://goo.gl/maps/rGxdrVZa9kC2

I do have to say that much of the new development in Citywest is being carefully scrutinised as regards to permeability. I feel Scholarstown area could lack a LDP.

Thrashssacre

What I think could really help this plan is incorporating local link services into the 90 minuite fare and adding a couple of more routes (particularly in north Dublin: st Margaret's, naul etc). A lot of these areas would in no was support an all day frequent service, but adding these little minibus services at peak times might stem the thought of this plan attacking rural areas and the elderly.

MJohnston

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The entire of Ireland has by far the absolute worst permeability of any country I've been in. Its awful. Go to the UK even and you see public footpaths everywhere that connect estates and roads.

Definitely agree that Ireland has generally terrible permeability, but USA is worse in a lot of places - mainly because their suburbia is filled with similar housing patterns, but their overall land-per-house is much higher, and they build so much of their infrastructure purely for cars.

Peregrine

American cities are generally very permeable. American suburbs (the leafy non-grid kind) are arguably worse than Ireland.

Cookie_Monster

naughtb4 wrote: »

Where else has a similar system been implemented in a city similar to Dublin (size, not a grid layout, no metro or widespread rail)? I know it has been mentioned before but cannot find it

Auckland has and it's been a big improvement. Auckland also has bus only corridors, motorway lanes and dedicated stations on the North Shore and these are awesome, a great example of what Dublin could be like if some of the heavy infrastructure plans actually get done in Dublin

naughtb4 wrote: »

Found Wellington have made a change to a similar system and feedback seems very negative

Wellingtonwas 2012 and some of it only just got implemented recently... it's been an utter disaster and as of last week the government have given the council 8 weeks to fix it or revert.

liger

Thrashssacre wrote: »

What I think could really help this plan is incorporating local link services into the 90 minuite fare and adding a couple of more routes (particularly in north Dublin: st Margaret's, naul etc). A lot of these areas would in no was support an all day frequent service, but adding these little minibus services at peak times might stem the thought of this plan attacking rural areas and the elderly.

Those little mini buses are going to be doing the local routes in all places.....

The bus connects crowd have been doing a great job of not really telling the entire picture. If you take for example an area like blanch or tallaght where you will be needing to use a feeder bus to get to the hub at the shopping centre, you'll be going from a double deck capacity of 100 every 20mins to a 35 capacity mini bus every 15mins.... So really bus connects will half the available capacity in some areas.

And are all branches of all spines operating at 5/7 minute intervals ? or will the A1 be every 20mins then the A2 be 5 mins after going to a different location, then A3 5mins after going somewhere else.... If the bus isn't going to the same location every 5 mins it's not really a 5min service...


lots of smoke and mirrors. hopefully the current government and TDs realise that this could result in them receiving their p45 if people aren't listened to.

CatInABox

liger wrote: »

Those little mini buses are going to be doing the local routes in all places.....

The bus connects crowd have been doing a great job of not really telling the entire picture. If you take for example an area like blanch or tallaght where you will be needing to use a feeder bus to get to the hub at the shopping centre, you'll be going from a double deck capacity of 100 every 20mins to a 35 capacity mini bus every 15mins.... So really bus connects will half the available capacity in some areas.

And are all branches of all spines operating at 5/7 minute intervals ? or will the A1 be every 20mins then the A2 be 5 mins after going to a different location, then A3 5mins after going somewhere else.... If the bus isn't going to the same location every 5 mins it's not really a 5min service...


lots of smoke and mirrors. hopefully the current government and TDs realise that this could result in them receiving their p45 if people aren't listened to.

And none of that's true, well done. The only route that won't be using Double Decker buses is the O Orbital, and that will be using Single Decker buses.

xper

liger wrote: »

Those little mini buses are going to be doing the local routes in all places.....

The bus connects crowd have been doing a great job of not really telling the entire picture. ...

And you know this how?

... If you take for example an area like blanch or tallaght where you will be needing to use a feeder bus to get to the hub at the shopping centre, you'll be going from a double deck capacity of 100 every 20mins to a 35 capacity mini bus every 15mins.... So really bus connects will half the available capacity in some areas.

It doesn't matter what vehicle is used as long as it meets demand. The capacity demand on the spine/radial routes tends to drop as you get out to the furthest extents, as lots of commuters board/disembark mid-route. This is one of the main arguements for shortening these direct-to-city routes - why have lots of near-empty double deckers driving back and forth over the last couple of miles of such routes when they could be turned back earlier onto the section of the route - the spine - that has the peak demand for capacity and frequency? Let local services take on the task of getting the remaining city-commuters to/from their homes - if a 32 seater meets that demand, great. If there is enough local passenger traffic to warrant using a bigger vehicle on a local route (as I imagine could well be the case for such routes in tallaght) then just provide that type of vehicle.

You've absolutely no cause to assume that "those little mini buses are going to be doing the local routes in all places".

The brief to the planners was to use the existing fleet plus a small expansion in planning the new network. There's millions of euros invested in the current, perfectly serviceable fleet that has a very small percentage of single deckers. While the new vehicles coming on stream now for Go-Ahead and Dublin Bus do contain more signle deckers, the bus fleet in use in Dublin is going to be primarily double decker for many years to come.

And are all branches of all spines operating at 5/7 minute intervals ? or will the A1 be every 20mins then the A2 be 5 mins after going to a different location, then A3 5mins after going somewhere else.... If the bus isn't going to the same location every 5 mins it's not really a 5min service...

lots of smoke and mirrors. hopefully the current government and TDs realise that this could result in them receiving their p45 if people aren't listened to.

There are no smoke and mirrors. The proposed frequency of every route is spelt out in detail in the report for each hour of each day of the week. You clearly either haven't bothered your arse reading it or are willfully misinterpreting it. It is clearly stated several times in the report and elsewhere that the very high frequencies apply to the spines where spine routes are combined.

CatInABox wrote: »

And none of that's true, well done. The only route that won't be using Double Decker buses is the O Orbital, and that will be using Single Decker buses.

And that's not true either. You cannot say that the O orbital will be the only route with single deckers (as necessitated by the bridges on the route). That in fact seems very unlikely. I have no doubt that many of the less frequent or shorter local routes will use smaller vehicles. We just don't know which yet. The only thing that matters is whether demand on each route is met by frequency and vehicle capacity - as long as people aren't left behind at bus stops, who gives a damn. Of course, the vehicle used on any route, and routes themselves, would be subject to change over time anyway as demand changes. Lots of cities operate a comprehensive bus service with single deckers only. It is not something to get fixated on.

Stephen15

Go-Ahead have 20 single deckers which will be used which will be used on the less used services which they won the tender for it remains to be seen whether the NTA will order more. With regards to the O route Dan Costantino muted on Twitter that that route could be operated by bendybuses.

Qrt

xper wrote: »

Lots of cities operate a comprehensive bus service with single deckers only. It is not something to get fixated on.

London being a big example, there's a fair few single-deckers rocking around the East End. I got one from Shadwell to Bethnal Green and it has half-full.

LeinsterDub

Qrt wrote: »

Bear in mind there's virtually no reason for the NBRU to oppose this too. They might actually be as supportive for that as they were critical of the redesign! To be fair, a lot of the bus corridors could be easily done, segments of Ballyfermot Rd. where there are basically three roads running parallel and the Navan Rd too.

The NBRU don't need a reason to oppose things. Opposing everything to eek out concessions is their MO

Qrt

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The NBRU don't need a reason to oppose things. Opposing everything to eek out concessions is their MO

To be honest, I can't see it with the core route corridor one. With the redesign, a fair number of passengers will feel they are negatively affected – hence the argument and debate. I don't know anybody who would advocate for bus journeys to not get shorter.

MJohnston

Trying to think of the O orbital route in my head, is there somewhere specifically that requires the single decker on the route? Macken Street maybe? Or near Five Lamps?

marno21

MJohnston wrote: »

Trying to think of the O orbital route in my head, is there somewhere specifically that requires the single decker on the route? Macken Street maybe? Or near Five Lamps?

There's a railway bridge along the route that wouldn't permit a double decker underneath it. Is it on Macken Street ?

salmocab

marno21 wrote: »

There's a railway bridge along the route that wouldn't permit a double decker underneath it. Is it on Macken Street ?

Macken street is where google is? Think the bridge there is fairly low.

Qrt

salmocab wrote: »

Macken street is where google is? Think the bridge there is fairly low.

Google is Barrow Street but it's the same neck of the woods.

marno21 wrote: »

There's a railway bridge along the route that wouldn't permit a double decker underneath it. Is it on Macken Street ?

Yup,it's a bit of a squeeze.

MJohnston wrote: »

Trying to think of the O orbital route in my head, is there somewhere specifically that requires the single decker on the route? Macken Street maybe? Or near Five Lamps?

Initially I thought the O was going near Seville Place but a quick look proved that theory wrong. I can't think of any height restrictions around the five lamps?

MJohnston

Qrt wrote: »

Google is Barrow Street but it's the same neck of the woods.



Yup,it's a bit of a squeeze.



Initially I thought the O was going near Seville Place but a quick look proved that theory wrong. I can't think of any height restrictions around the five lamps?

There's this on Sheriff Street:
https://goo.gl/maps/e3F1irFxaQG2

No height restriction signs though, annoyingly. Those are the only 2 low bridges I can think of on the entire route.

Qrt

MJohnston wrote: »

There's this on Sheriff Street:
https://goo.gl/maps/e3F1irFxaQG2

No height restriction signs though, annoyingly. Those are the only 2 low bridges I can think of on the entire route.

The O is avoiding Sheriff St, no?