BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

LeinsterDub

naughtb4 wrote: »

Not directly, but it does open up a gap in the market for private operators to move into with the loss of the "direct/express buses".

If that's not addressed in the next revision, I suspect we could see continued growth of Swords/Fingal Express-type services

The market is already opened up we've dozens of private bus operators in Ireland if not hundreds

schemingbohemia

loyatemu wrote: »

as has been mentioned previously, a wholesale change of routes means disruption for the drivers, many of whom are "marked in" on existing routes. This is probably one reason the union is agitating against it.

So an inefficient and unfair system is to be perpetuated at the cost of a much better bus system for Dublin. Does anyone know if NBRU members tend to be "marked in" more than SIPTU members?
The NBRU seems to be set on perpetuating a system that is blatantly unfair to new bus drivers, should new drivers join a different union?

ThunbergsAreGo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The market is already opened up we've dozens of private bus operators in Ireland if not hundreds

Not disputing that, hence the word growth.

If direct routes are lost they will likely be taken up by private operators if there are profits to be made. The initial Bus Connects removed the competition for many of the Express services that exist within the North Dublin (I can only speak for that) area with the removal of Buses through the Port Tunnel. Commuters to the city centre in North Dublin will likely use the train (if there is capacity) and/or a private operator to get to and from work.

In addition the use of Swords as a Hub for North Dublin provides an opportunity for Swords Express to capture more business as the town should have more traffic.

loyatemu

schemingbohemia wrote: »

The NBRU seems to be set on perpetuating a system that is blatantly unfair to new bus drivers, should new drivers join a different union?

longer-serving employees get better shifts - it happens in most businesses (I'm not defending the NBRU here, it's certainly not a reason to cancel BusConnects).

LeinsterDub

loyatemu wrote: »

longer-serving employees get better shifts - it happens in most businesses (I'm not defending the NBRU here, it's certainly not a reason to cancel BusConnects).

Won't BusConnects mean more drivers being marked in? Non marked drivers cover multiple routes , less routes and more frequency on those route means more marked in drivers, no?

L1011

loyatemu wrote: »

longer-serving employees get better shifts - it happens in most businesses (I'm not defending the NBRU here, it's certainly not a reason to cancel BusConnects).

Marking In takes this to an extreme level where the shifts go from unpredictable and extremely poor to ridiculously stable. Everyone on a common roster would make reasonable shifts for all possible and you could even retain some level of seniority if you wanted

PhoenixParker

I feel like bus connects could create much nicer working conditions for drivers.

The big interchanges are the obvious bases and each could have driver facilities and a pool of drivers working only from there.

Routes would have shorter average lengths making breaks easier to facilitate.

cgcsb

tom1ie wrote: »

So are some dB routes not going to a private company called go ahead? Do the drivers in go ahead get paid the same and have the same perks as dB drivers?

Open tendering to provide public services, is not 'privatisation'. In 5 years time, Dublin Bus could win those routes back through the tendering process if they put in a stronger bid.

cgcsb

tom1ie wrote: »

This is a good point, but will the system work like the c.e.r in the energy sector, where private company, (and dB) can go to nta and look for more money/ higher fares, as they are not making ends meet under the current system. If the c.e.r model is anything to go by, the nta agree to said increase for operator. The nta have to find the money for this increase, so do they get it from centeral government or fare increases?
Operators get paid a fixed fee by the nta, so if the operator wants to increase profits, but doesn’t get an increase from nta, will they not just put downward pressure on wages, hence putting pressure on other operators to do likewise with their drivers?
By the way I’m not a bus driver, just looking at this from an objective view. I’m still a bc fan.

They wont be getting any fare box money. They'll be paid by the NTA on a fixed cost basis for 5 years. If at the end of 5 years they want more money they can make that case in the tendering process.

Odds are their staffing costs at GOAhead are lower than at Dublin Bus. No harm really, we already have some of the world's best paid drivers. You'd have to go to Copenhagen, where a pint is €20, to find better paid drivers. This is a competitive labour market and it is perfectly fair to have competition between workers/companies for more money, assuming you accept freedom of movement accross the EU and our current open doors non-EU immigration policy.

Qrt

cgcsb wrote: »

where a pint is €20

You must've been in a very expensive pub. I didn't fine Denmark to be too expensive really, just like home.

tom1ie

cgcsb wrote: »

Open tendering to provide public services, is not 'privatisation'. In 5 years time, Dublin Bus could win those routes back through the tendering process if they put in a stronger bid.

If they put in a stronger bid. Yes but how will they put in a stronger bid?
By undercutting their rival.
How will they undercut their rival?
By reducing wages. (Probably)

tom1ie

cgcsb wrote: »

They wont be getting any fare box money. They'll be paid by the NTA on a fixed cost basis for 5 years. If at the end of 5 years they want more money they can make that case in the tendering process.

Odds are their staffing costs at GOAhead are lower than at Dublin Bus. No harm really, we already have some of the world's best paid drivers. You'd have to go to Copenhagen, where a pint is €20, to find better paid drivers. This is a competitive labour market and it is perfectly fair to have competition between workers/companies for more money, assuming you accept freedom of movement accross the EU and our current open doors non-EU immigration policy.

So again we are talking about undermining bus drivers wages.
Surely this isn’t a good thing?

cgcsb

tom1ie wrote: »

So again we are talking about undermining bus drivers wages.
Surely this isn’t a good thing?

It is for the city/country as a whole, it brings a cost, which is highly excessive compared to international norms, down to a more affordable level for the consumer and tax payer. We're currently paying more than Londoners do for a worse service.

tom1ie

cgcsb wrote: »

It is for the city/country as a whole, it brings a cost, which is highly excessive compared to international norms, down to a more affordable level for the consumer and tax payer. We're currently paying more than Londoners do for a worse service.

Yes and I totally understand that but without derailing this thread, the last thing we need in this country is downward pressure on wages without the same pressure applied to costs, ie food, rent,mortgages,taxes etc etc.

cgcsb

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes and I totally understand that but without derailing this thread, the last thing we need in this country is downward pressure on wages without the same pressure applied to costs, ie food, rent,mortgages,taxes etc etc.

The cost of commuting is a cost, the cost of taxation is a cost. Downward pressure on one cost often puts downward pressure on others. I see what you mean dropping onw without the other. But the reality is the cost of housing is protected by the government, which has a vested interest in keeping the cost of housing high.

LeinsterDub

tom1ie wrote: »

By reducing wages. (Probably)

Or removing inefficiency such as outdated work practices, bloated middle and upper management , reacting quicker to changing public demands (this would require NTA approval)

LeinsterDub

tom1ie wrote: »

So again we are talking about undermining bus drivers wages.
Surely this isn’t a good thing?

Staff costs can be lower while having higher bus driver wages.

tom1ie

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Staff costs be lower while having higher bus driver wages.

Well this would be ideal but can you only achieve that through having less bus drivers or do you mean getting rid of upper/middle management.

bk

Also faster turn around times and thus better utilisation of buses and driving time, if the infrastructure side of BusConnects goes ahead, along with better ticketing, dwell times, etc.

Lots of ways to improve productivity without necessarily cutting individual wages.

As for the idea that private automatically means lower wages. When the Luas is run by a private company and yet Luas drivers earn more then DB drivers. Not quiet a direct comparison, but not far off.

LeinsterDub

tom1ie wrote: »

Well this would be ideal but can you only achieve that through having less bus drivers or do you mean getting rid of upper/middle management.

Management and waste

Sam Russell

tom1ie wrote: »

Well this would be ideal but can you only achieve that through having less bus drivers or do you mean getting rid of upper/middle management.

You could keep overtime levels down by having the correct number of drivers for the schedule that they operate. Also sick rates could be kept down, as well as more flexibility with rosters.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

As for the idea that private automatically means lower wages. When the Luas is run by a private company and yet Luas drivers earn more then DB drivers. Not quiet a direct comparison, but not far off.

Train/tram drivers are generally paid more than bus drivers whether they be public or private. It's not just wages you also have to look at it in terms of job security, hours, terms and conditions and pensions.

Stephen15

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I feel like bus connects could create much nicer working conditions for drivers.

The big interchanges are the obvious bases and each could have driver facilities and a pool of drivers working only from there.

Routes would have shorter average lengths making breaks easier to facilitate.

True you could also say the spine routes are a lot longer than some current routes. I would say a lot of the spine routes routes would be covered by two depots for example routes on the E spine would probably be covered by Donnybrook and Harristown.

I would say it might be better off to built a new depot in West Dublin or just tender out most of the orbital routes in West Dublin to Go-Ahead and leave the rest of the network DB operated.

ED E

Stephen15 wrote: »

I would say it might be better off to built a new depot in West Dublin or just tender out most of the orbital routes in West Dublin to Go-Ahead and leave the rest of the network DB operated.

That wouldn't serve the purpose of putting them in competition with each other for routes as they arise.

PhoenixParker

Stephen15 wrote: »

True you could also say the spine routes are a lot longer than some current routes. I would say a lot of the spine routes routes would be covered by two depots for example routes on the E spine would probably be covered by Donnybrook and Harristown.

I would say it might be better off to built a new depot in West Dublin or just tender out most of the orbital routes in West Dublin to Go-Ahead and leave the rest of the network DB operated.

The spine routes are still generally shorter then the current longest routes, and some of those long routes are very high frequency.

yrreg0850

As an OAP can anybody say, will our passes be accepted on these new buses.

StreetLight

yrreg0850 wrote: »

As an OAP can anybody say, will our passes be accepted on these new buses.

They already are and always will be.

cgcsb

yrreg0850 wrote: »

As an OAP can anybody say, will our passes be accepted on these new buses.

YES

Qrt

StreetLight wrote: »

The already are and always will be.

cgcsb wrote: »

YES

The buses have gotten a new lick of paint, that's all the end user should notice.

BonnieSituation

Ah yes...

Not sure what BusConnects is gonna be able to do about DCC but...

I'm on a 26. I got on it at 1701 at Merrion square North. At 1714 I just got to the end of Merrion square South/Merrion St Lawrence.

And now I'm in the bus priority/bus gate outside Pearse Garda Stn.

---

Anyway... Anyone who thinks our bus network doesn't need to change is clearly off their rocker.

And Copenhagen is just as expensive/cheap as Dublin, yer man might have been confusing it with Oslo.