BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

dring

A similar plan has been rolled out slowly in Barcelona over the last six years. 20 new bus routes have been phased in with shiny new long bendy buses while most, but not all of the old routes have been left intact. The new routes concentrate on linking up with metro and tram lines and mainly stay away from the centre. As someone who spends a lot of time there I would say its an improvement but not a panacea for congestion, delays, etc. They already had the 90 min changeover integrated ticketing (bus , metro and tram) but more significantly they have a 10 journey prepurchase ticket which offers 50% discount per journey. (T10 is around 10€, single ticket is over 2€) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ortogonal_de_Autobuses_de_Barcelona

loyatemu

dring wrote: »

A similar plan has been rolled out slowly in Barcelona over the last six years. 20 new bus routes have been phased in with shiny new long bendy buses while most, but not all of the old routes have been left intact. The new routes concentrate on linking up with metro and tram lines and mainly stay away from the centre. As someone who spends a lot of time there I would say its an improvement but not a panacea for congestion, delays, etc. They already had the 90 min changeover integrated ticketing (bus , metro and tram) but more significantly they have a 10 journey prepurchase ticket which offers 50% discount per journey. (T10 is around 10€, single ticket is over 2€) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ortogonal_de_Autobuses_de_Barcelona

that's an alternative approach I guess - introduce new higher frequency routes with better priority (maybe rebranding them) and gradually run down the old network as people switch to the new one.

hmmm

Stevek101 wrote: »

Public Consultation on revised plans expected in Jan 2019.

Too late, the opposition will be in full swing by then, and with a possible election in view there will be little political support.

The Barcelona option sounds infinitely more achievable.

antoinolachtnai

loyatemu wrote: »

that's an alternative approach I guess - introduce new higher frequency routes with better priority (maybe rebranding them) and gradually run down the old network as people switch to the new one.

It's just going to end up a lot more expensive and difficult. You're going to have 5 or 6 years of transition and constant changing and lobbying instead of a concentrated period. The passengers per vehicle km will plummet and as a result, costs will escalate.

A disorganized version of this is what happened in 2005-2008. Hundreds of extra buses were added to the system in a fairly ad hoc way. Capacity was added, sure, but it didn't create any new route possibilities.

When the recession hit, the costs of the system had gotten completely out of kilter and the whole thing had to be cut back savagely. The unions didn't really complain because they knew there was no money and no choice.

Slutmonkey57b

I think there's a different reason this plan isn't getting support from government. Walker was asked for a plan which assumed no infrastructure changes. Instead, we've got a plan which can't work without them and will be introduced before they're done, assuming they can even be completed. That's a disaster waiting to happen.

CatInABox

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I think there's a different reason this plan isn't getting support from government. Walker was asked for a plan which assumed no infrastructure changes. Instead, we've got a plan which can't work without them and will be introduced before they're done, assuming they can even be completed. That's a disaster waiting to happen.

What infrastructure changes are required beyond the creation of interchanges?

ThunbergsAreGo

abitofacomedian wrote: »

I don't get the opposition, it's not like the city centre is one tiny place that once you get off the bus you are magically at your destination. Currently if I want to get the bus to town I'm dropped in Abbey St. If I want to go somewhere else then I have to walk, if I want to go southside I have to walk almost a kilometre or get on a luas to get on another bus in college green or Nassau. What use is cutting out the walk at the beginning of the journey if it still exists at the end.

What you described is the service northern line commuters now get with the 10 minute darts at the weekend

I suspect the abject failure of that and the fact areas which are losing express buses already have trains at capacity will lead to increased opposition and people who are affected attending meetings and be seen to do something instead of snipe from the sidelines

AlekSmart

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It's just going to end up a lot more expensive and difficult. You're going to have 5 or 6 years of transition and constant changing and lobbying instead of a concentrated period. The passengers per vehicle km will plummet and as a result, costs will escalate.

A disorganized version of this is what happened in 2005-2008. Hundreds of extra buses were added to the system in a fairly ad hoc way. Capacity was added, sure, but it didn't create any new route possibilities.

When the recession hit, the costs of the system had gotten completely out of kilter and the whole thing had to be cut back savagely. The unions didn't really complain because they knew there was no money and no choice.

100% True.

The Busconnects Plan concept is BIG-BANG in terms of implementation,it HAS to be.
Jarrett Walker is on record (in one of his many tweets) as pointing this out.

With the NTA now having lost significant elements of control over the Overall Plan,it is now very obviously at the mercy of the many hundreds of "Public Representatives",few of whom have any real understanding of the broader requirements/implications of Bus Operation.

The "Remainers" led very ably by Dermot O'Leary,have from the beginning, recognized and used,the NTA's inexperience and lack of nous to set the tone for the entire debate.

The NTA really do need to agree within their own organization,as to where they are going with Busconnects.
Mr Walker suggests that a maximum of 15% of it's basic proposals are realistically alterable,which now stands counter to the many and varied local based arguements,all of which,when added together,totals FAR more than that 15% figure.

As a proponent of the Busconnects principle,I am now sceptical of the NTA's committment to the BC Report and it's recommendations,which now threatens to become a long-running saga in the mould of the Draining of the Shannon.

XPS_Zero

I just finished reading the article in the Sunday Indo about this...and its everything you would expect from the Irish media: lots of vague outrage with no actual argument.


Next time you are reading a newspaper or a news article online look for this phenomenon: a headline that does not match anything in the actual article. It's esp bad in opinion writeups they'll have a title about one thing but only make a line or two in references to it in the actual article.


When you read this article it blasts busconnects but makes no actual counterarguments against it. Yes thats right! Only thing it says is that Cormac Devlin is "impressive" (this is from the same media that finds Simon Harris impressive...the same media that lambasts Irish politicos all the time seems to prop up the lowest quality ones with their praise, it's baffling) and 'why did the NTA not talk to people about how this would affect the disabled....WHAT ABOUT THE DISABLED!!!!!!!!!!!'....but does not actually specify how this plan would negatively affect the disabled in any way.


The other vague thing is about bus shelters...will each interchange have a bus shelter...ok...a valid question given this is a big problem on major routes already (the Brides Glen / Cherrywood area main bus stops for one have no timers and shelters despite being a major transport interchange)...thats a question...is that reason to oppose the entire plan? Nope.



The next 'argument' is a vague thing about how they don't trust the NTA and their local route, the 4, is being abolished....that's it!...that's the article!


PEOPLE GET PAID FOR THIS SHT1TE????

XPS_Zero

Stephen15 wrote: »

How big an issue is bus connects to most people. I doubt most people really care. Do most people even know what Bus Connects is let alone what the plans for it are.

No most people don't care. and most people who even attend meetings with lit torches will have forgotten about it come the next election


You need to understand the politicos are not pandering so mercilessly in order to stave off anger and get votes in the next election - it's to get their face and name in the media and become more "known" in their local area before they run again. Remember most FF TDs and SF TDs and aspiring both, are young and new, so they are constantly told by PR hacks (who are mostly bad at their job) that they need to develop a "profile" for themselves , this is why you get Robert Troy out with those stupid nonsensical press releases.


There is a grain of truth in it too, sadly, because Irish voters often vote for who is "known around the area" NOT who has the best policies or ideas but who they "see around", so you can blame the voters as much as the panderers for this pattern.

As for FF don't think of us as one block, there are two competing segments and inclinations in the party right now trying to push in different directions. My crowd are trying to remind certain people that opposing everything for it's own sake for short term populism then getting in and implementing the very same stuff you opposed is what destroyed Labour, and that we only got a stay of execution last time...the axe could fall again.

AlekSmart

XPS_Zero wrote: »

No most people don't care. and most people who even attend meetings with lit torches will have forgotten about it come the next election


You need to understand the politicos are not pandering so mercilessly in order to stave off anger and get votes in the next election - it's to get their face and name in the media and become more "known" in their local area before they run again. Remember most FF TDs and SF TDs and aspiring both, are young and new, so they are constantly told by PR hacks (who are mostly bad at their job) that they need to develop a "profile" for themselves , this is why you get Robert Troy out with those stupid nonsensical press releases.


There is a grain of truth in it too, sadly, because Irish voters often vote for who is "known around the area" NOT who has the best policies or ideas but who they "see around", so you can blame the voters as much as the panderers for this pattern.

As for FF don't think of us as one block, there are two competing segments and inclinations in the party right now trying to push in different directions. My crowd are trying to remind certain people that opposing everything for it's own sake for short term populism then getting in and implementing the very same stuff you opposed is what destroyed Labour, and that we only got a stay of execution last time...the axe could fall again.

The Irish electorate are very capable of inflicting great damage upon itself...over and over again,often in spite of warnings from outside the Political pale.

There is an arguement to be made,that "Public Consultation" policies,such as we are now enduring,need to be far better managed and focused upon actual counterpoints,rather than playing to the lens.

Lord Glentoran

AlekSmart wrote: »

100% True.

The Busconnects Plan concept is BIG-BANG in terms of implementation,it HAS to be.
Jarrett Walker is on record (in one of his many tweets) as pointing this out.

With the NTA now having lost significant elements of control over the Overall Plan,it is now very obviously at the mercy of the many hundreds of "Public Representatives",few of whom have any real understanding of the broader requirements/implications of Bus Operation.

The "Remainers" led very ably by Dermot O'Leary,have from the beginning, recognized and used,the NTA's inexperience and lack of nous to set the tone for the entire debate.

The NTA really do need to agree within their own organization,as to where they are going with Busconnects.
Mr Walker suggests that a maximum of 15% of it's basic proposals are realistically alterable,which now stands counter to the many and varied local based arguements,all of which,when added together,totals FAR more than that 15% figure.

As a proponent of the Busconnects principle,I am now sceptical of the NTA's committment to the BC Report and it's recommendations,which now threatens to become a long-running saga in the mould of the Draining of the Shannon.

A combination of lazy, lazy journalism; the unions not wanting change; and the cack-handedness of the NTA will screw Busconnects. Look at the reactionary attitudes to Luas and Metro that contributed to massive delays and endless alterations to both, preventing their timely implementation.

I won’t blame Jarrett Walker when he leaves Dublin being perplexed at the arrant stupidity of it all.

Stevek101

Barcelona is a grid layout simular to USA. Its ironic the critics of BusConnects who criticise Jarrett Walker stating he doesn't understand Ireland's road layout then suggest Barcelona's USA style grid network is the way to go.

Realistically if NBRU and Dermot O'Leary want a revised plan, which is an expansion of the current network, private cars and taxis would have to be removed from the city centre.

Imagine the uproar that'd cause for the poor TDs.

XPS_Zero

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Irish electorate are very capable of inflicting great damage upon itself...over and over again,often in spite of warnings from outside the Political pale.

There is an arguement to be made,that "Public Consultation" policies,such as we are now enduring,need to be far better managed and focused upon actual counterpoints,rather than playing to the lens.

Someone who used to work for Brennan when he was transport minister once told me "we try to limit the public consultation ..make it more of a 'yeh we gave you a consultation you didn't say that'..because when you actually give it to them they tend to not actually understand the thing being proposed". At the time I thought it was another example of an attitude I'm trying to fight against...now I'm not so sure.


When you get involved in politics after a while, esp if you work in a TDs office..you begin to despair at how uninformed the public is about public policy. I regularly hear screeching demands on daytime radio for welfare reforms (like a jobseekers time limit) that were implemented years ago, but nobody bothered to go on citizensinformation.ie and look up the actual rules of the program they were hysterical about before calling up a radio show, even the host (looking at you Niall Boylan!) never bothered to do that.



A contempt can develop among people involved in politics for the public as a result of this, and it's EXTREMELY dangerous. If you let that attitude take you over you begin to get a smugness about you, a contempt that the public can feel when you are talking to them, and then you look (and you are) out of touch. At the same time...they often don't know what the hell they are talking about ...flat out, I know it sounds bad but it's true.


I try to remind myself about why this is. Most people are at work all day, have kids to deal with, busy lives and dont' get to take a deep breath until 8pm so they are gonna use their free time post-8pm or the weekend doing R&R not reading up on politics and policy issues, that's what they have representatives for, and most will instead watch Coronation Street or Love Island...I get that I really really do...but I also think a citizenry has a responsibility to inform themselves even on a basic level about things they are going to have a strong opinion on, they don't have to know everything, but if you are gonna have a strong opinion on something and go to meetings about it you should bloody understand it.


So there is a mix of that being needed, and politicos needing to make the case for why xyz policy leaves their area better off instead of taking the much easier option of just pandering, and the difference between politicos who do the former and the latter is the quality of who you elect, so ask them questions at the door, don't just vote for who you "see around the area" more or who "seems like a decent guy", ask them their views on policy areas and if they can't answer you don't vote for them. If they seem to just be bending over backwards to agree with you on everything , with no disagreement whatsoever in any way - thats a sign they're a panderer who won't actually represent you when they get in. The problem is pandering is what gets you elected way easier than making the case - and that is down to the voters, because they reward panderers who insult their intelligence by playing to their emotions and their fears instead of their brains.

AlekSmart

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

A combination of lazy, lazy journalism; the unions not wanting change; and the cack-handedness of the NTA will screw Busconnects. Look at the reactionary attitudes to Luas and Metro that contributed to massive delays and endless alterations to both, preventing their timely implementation.

I won’t blame Jarrett Walker when he leaves Dublin being perplexed at the arrant stupidity of it all.

Given the opportunities gifted to Dermot O Leary,it is easy to believe the anti-change allegation.
However,it is worth bearing in mind,that not all of the NBRU's membership are fully in agreement with their General Secretary on the manner of the current campaign.
As an NBRU member,my Political views should be irrelevant to my Trade Union membership,and in over 25 years they have always been.
I fully support Dermot O'Leary's right to make submissions to,and engage with the NTA,on the broader issues inherent in major change programmes.
However,I also expect my union's approach to be considered,and fully developed to take account more than one scenario.

In the medium term,as a BAC employee,I see more positives than negatives in the broad Busconnects plan,and I would prefer to hear Dermot and the Trade Union Group make some headway on the actual effects of the programme on BAC's current operational agreements,identifying areas of possible contention and commencing the negotiations on these.

There are,as far as I can see,significant benefits for BAC,in closely co-operating with the development and implimentation of Busconnects,which will definitely require a stable operational platform well beyond the end of the current 2019 Direct Award Contract.

Instead however,I see somewhat excessive Politcially driven Tweets and Releases about Blueshirts and Right Wing politics etc,some of which I may agree with,BUT which I will address,in my own way on Election Day.

Although hard to stomach for some posters,Busconnects will also impact on Go-Ahead Ireland in the medium term,when their representative Unions will certainly also be seeking to ensure their members Operating Conditions are not worsened by the changes.

AlekSmart

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Someone who used to work for Brennan when he was transport minister once told me "we try to limit the public consultation ..make it more of a 'yeh we gave you a consultation you didn't say that'..because when you actually give it to them they tend to not actually understand the thing being proposed". At the time I thought it was another example of an attitude I'm trying to fight against...now I'm not so sure.


When you get involved in politics after a while, esp if you work in a TDs office..you begin to despair at how uninformed the public is about public policy. I regularly hear screeching demands on daytime radio for welfare reforms (like a jobseekers time limit) that were implemented years ago, but nobody bothered to go on citizensinformation.ie and look up the actual rules of the program they were hysterical about before calling up a radio show, even the host (looking at you Niall Boylan!) never bothered to do that.



A contempt can develop among people involved in politics for the public as a result of this, and it's EXTREMELY dangerous. If you let that attitude take you over you begin to get a smugness about you, a contempt that the public can feel when you are talking to them, and then you look (and you are) out of touch. At the same time...they often don't know what the hell they are talking about ...flat out, I know it sounds bad but it's true.


I try to remind myself about why this is. Most people are at work all day, have kids to deal with, busy lives and dont' get to take a deep breath until 8pm so they are gonna use their free time post-8pm or the weekend doing R&R not reading up on politics and policy issues, that's what they have representatives for, and most will instead watch Coronation Street or Love Island...I get that I really really do...but I also think a citizenry has a responsibility to inform themselves even on a basic level about things they are going to have a strong opinion on, they don't have to know everything, but if you are gonna have a strong opinion on something and go to meetings about it you should bloody understand it.


So there is a mix of that being needed, and politicos needing to make the case for why xyz policy leaves their area better off instead of taking the much easier option of just pandering, and the difference between politicos who do the former and the latter is the quality of who you elect, so ask them questions at the door, don't just vote for who you "see around the area" more or who "seems like a decent guy", ask them their views on policy areas and if they can't answer you don't vote for them. If they seem to just be bending over backwards to agree with you on everything , with no disagreement whatsoever in any way - thats a sign they're a panderer who won't actually represent you when they get in. The problem is pandering is what gets you elected way easier than making the case - and that is down to the voters, because they reward panderers who insult their intelligence by playing to their emotions and their fears instead of their brains.

That Dáil Éireann Accepts the need for a doubling of the Beer & Crisps budget for 2019 ...All those in favour vote Aye

Marlay

CatInABox wrote: »

What infrastructure changes are required beyond the creation of interchanges?

The core bus corridors? Also park and ride facilities.

Considering all that is said of the N4/M50 junction is "The provision of continuous bus lanes through the junction may impact on the overall traffic capacity of this junction", I'd be interested to see how they plan to do that one.

Slutmonkey57b

CatInABox wrote: »

What infrastructure changes are required beyond the creation of interchanges?

Its in the plan. Removal of on street parking, mature trees, widening of roads is standard in every area they discuss. That's apart from the optimistic assumptions that trains and trams will have the capacity to take transfers, given that their current expansion plans will only just cover the growth of the current routes.

Having said that, the whole interchange debate can be solved by bringing in the 90 minute fare tomorrow and seeing what the take up is like

XPS_Zero

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Its in the plan. Removal of on street parking, mature trees, widening of roads is standard in every area they discuss. That's apart from the optimistic assumptions that trains and trams will have the capacity to take transfers, given that their current expansion plans will only just cover the growth of the current routes.

Having said that, the whole interchange debate can be solved by bringing in the 90 minute fare tomorrow and seeing what the take up is like

These are legitimate questions. A legit question would be "how is this gonna be different from when I have to change atm and I have to wait at a bus stop with no shelter in the p1ssings of rain then 3 of my busses come together". I don't blame the Irish public for being cynical, there is plenty of blame to go around here given the announcements and re-announcements of amazing plans with nothing really happening after (Luas and DART Upgrade excluded). But these are NOT the questions being asked or points being raised at these pandering meetings.


It's "my exact street will lose it's direct route to the city centre!" and "what about people who are disabled" (without a specific point about how it will affect them) , and the public rep portraying it as a cuts thing.


I commend FFs more progressive shove since the end of the PD marriage , since it's always been a progressive party with a few exceptions on social issues, which is why Labour never took off here, but it's also had a tendency to be populist and encourage parish pump and thats what a lot of them are doing now. Confusing progressive and populist. I constantly remind them we don't wanna end up like the PBP shower where you oppose everything...because unlike them we' will actually have the responsibility to govern soon enough and opposing everything then having to actually implement some of what you opposed = electoral suicide as Greens and Labour should have taught us.

Sam Russell

Is the proposed90 minute fare going to be the only one on offer, or will the current lower fares still apply?

Any firm idea how much the 90 min fare will be?

thomasj

It's ironic that the 90 minute fare isn't going to apply to those using commuter trains, giving that it's those that are going to have to make connections.

Only in Ireland!

TheChrisD

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is the proposed90 minute fare going to be the only one on offer, or will the current lower fares still apply?

Supposedly there will also be a fare for short single journeys.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Any firm idea how much the 90 min fare will be?

Head of the NTA has been saying between the existing 2.15 and 2.60 fares.

Qrt

thomasj wrote: »

It's ironic that the 90 minute fare isn't going to apply to those using commuter trains, giving that it's those that are going to have to make connections.

Only in Ireland!

I'm fairly sure that was changed according to Dermot O'Gara.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is the proposed90 minute fare going to be the only one on offer, or will the current lower fares still apply?

Any firm idea how much the 90 min fare will be?

99% sure the current plan is a short-trip fare and then the general 90 minute fare. Former being for trips such as Ongar to Blanch Centre, Outer Tallaght areas to The Sq/Town Centre, Ballywaltrim to Bray etc, and the latter being for regular longer-distance trips.

My guess would be the current €1.50 for short trips, and €2.40 for the longer-distance ones. The longer distance one has been earmarked as between €2.25 and €2.60 I'm sure, I got the €2.40 figure from the €2.60 DB fare and the €2.20 Luas fare I pay ATM.

Stephen15

Qrt wrote: »

99% sure the current plan is a short-trip fare and then the general 90 minute fare. Former being for trips such as Ongar to Blanch Centre, Outer Tallaght areas to The Sq/Town Centre, Ballywaltrim to Bray etc, and the latter being for regular longer-distance trips.

My guess would be the current €1.50 for short trips, and €2.40 for the longer-distance ones. The longer distance one has been earmarked as between €2.25 and €2.60 I'm sure, I got the €2.40 figure from the €2.60 DB fare and the €2.20 Luas fare I pay ATM.

I don't understand how they introduce a short distance without compromising on dwell times. It's either the short fare would have to be done by driver interaction which would cause dwell times to suffer or it would have to be done by tag on/off which would be expensive and also cause dwell times to suffer.

john boye

I saw a submission from a Resident's association in Templeogue and one of the points was that the 54A direct link to Tallaght should be kept as "a local woman sometimes uses it to get up to Kiltipper to see her Mother". I'm not making this up!

Qrt

john boye wrote: »

I saw a submission from a Resident's association in Templeogue and one of the points was that the 54A direct link to Tallaght should be kept as "a local woman sometimes uses it to get up to Kiltipper to see her Mother". I'm not making this up!

I think the 54a is a prime example of what's wrong with the bus network, and even Dublin, as a whole:

1. It terminates on Pearse Street (along with the 49) and having the terminus blocks up an awful lot of the traffic coming up Pearse Street.
2. It winds. It winds and winds and winds and winds and winds and WINDS until it's something akin to a funfair ride. The Fortfield detour and the Killinardan detour are the most pronounced IMO.
3. Kiltipper, as an area, lacks many amenities (they don't even have a shop anymore IIRC). So having such a meandering bus route at such a low frequency is a terrible injustice to the people living up there.

john boye

Qrt wrote: »

I think the 54a is a prime example of what's wrong with the bus network, and even Dublin, as a whole:

1. It terminates on Pearse Street (along with the 49) and having the terminus blocks up an awful lot of the traffic coming up Pearse Street.
2. It winds. It winds and winds and winds and winds and winds and WINDS until it's something akin to a funfair ride. The Fortfield detour and the Killinardan detour are the most pronounced IMO.
3. Kiltipper, as an area, lacks many amenities (they don't even have a shop anymore IIRC). So having such a meandering bus route at such a low frequency is a terrible injustice to the people living up there.

Exactly this. It's like a few different routes thrown together (ironically, that's what it actually is if you look back on its history) and what you're left with isn't much use to most people. It generally empties out in Willington and carries fresh air up to Tallaght. It does decent numbers from the Square to Kiltipper and vice versa but really, that should be a local service.

tretorn

The users of the 27A which runs from Edenmore directly to town are complaining that they will with bus connect have to get off at the Artane roundabout and change to another bus.

I have to say I wouldnt be too pleased if I was using this bus. Its bad enough queuing and then being shoved aside by teens but at least when you get on the bus with a direct route you know you can sit down until you are home. Its hard work climbing to the upstairs especially if you are elderly or have children, having to do this once and then get off the bus five minutes later and do it again would make you take your car.

Its the elderly and disabled who will suffer most if their direct routes to the city centre go.

jd

thomasj wrote: »

It's ironic that the 90 minute fare isn't going to apply to those using commuter trains, giving that it's those that are going to have to make connections.

Only in Ireland!

It will apply as far out as Maynooth and Hazelhatch on commuter rail.

Qrt

tretorn wrote: »

The users of the 27A which runs from Edenmore directly to town are complaining that they will with bus connect have to get off at the Artane roundabout and change to another bus.

I have to say I wouldnt be too pleased if I was using this bus. Its bad enough queuing and then being shoved aside by teens but at least when you get on the bus with a direct route you know you can sit down until you are home. Its hard work climbing to the upstairs especially if you are elderly or have children, having to do this once and then get off the bus five minutes later and do it again would make you take your car.

Its the elderly and disabled who will suffer most if their direct routes to the city centre go.

I can see the issue the people of Edenmore would have with the plan, being asked to get used to the interchange option is one thing, but if the connecting bus were to be only every 30 mins, i'd be annoyed too.